Where did we land on Invocation spells being Warlock spells?

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

[...] When an Alchemist Artificer uses Chemical Mastery, they can cast Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron, how many potions can they produce? It's not a spell on the Artificer spell list and the Artificer's Spellcasting ability is worded exactly like the Warlock's. [...]

 By Mystra! I'd rule it's based on your Intelligence, but... who knows?

 We all know. It's an artificer feature, casting a spell. You use the artificer's casting stat.

 

As a  hail mary I looked through the 5.5 character creation section of the PHB in case there might be something helpful, but nope, it's the exact opposite

Spellcasting. Note both the saving throw DC for your spells and the attack bonus for attacks you make with them, using these formulas:

Spell save DC = 8 + spellcasting ability modifier + Proficiency Bonus

Spell attack bonus = spellcasting ability modifier + Proficiency Bonus

Your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined by whatever feature gives you the ability to cast the spell.

 It's entirely possible to read that in a reasonable manner.

This is a Warlock feature -> you use the Warlock's casting stat

We have exactly zero examples of features that give you a different casting stat from the class''s casting stat.

Quote from jl8e >>

 It's entirely possible to read that in a reasonable manner.

This is a Warlock feature -> you use the Warlock's casting stat

Correction: it is entirely possible to assume that they meant to use the same stat as was specified by the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature... but RAW, if the feature doesn't say what the spellcasting ability is, it's undefined.

Quote from jl8e >>

We have exactly zero examples of features that give you a different casting stat from the class''s casting stat.

But we do have multiclasses, and non-class features that give you spellcasting ability, and spells from sources that simply give you a hard-coded DC

Again, my position is that if your chosen interpretation leads you to not being able to figure out the spell save DC you are Doing It Wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a gap in the written rules here

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from jl8e >>

 It's entirely possible to read that in a reasonable manner.

This is a Warlock feature -> you use the Warlock's casting stat

Correction: it is entirely possible to assume that they meant to use the same stat as was specified by the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature... but RAW, if the feature doesn't say what the spellcasting ability is, it's undefined.

The sentence "Your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined by whatever feature gives you the ability to cast the spell." can absolutely be read as the stat being determined by the class the feature belongs to, since that class has a spellcasting stat.

It can, I admit, also be read as "the spellcasting stat must be explicitly stated in the feature". But to what end? What is the purpose of reading it in the most restrictive way possible? Does it make the game play better? I would argue that it does not, because it creates abilities with undefined casting stats.

Given a choice of readings where one breaks the mechanics and one doesn't, I'm gonna stick with the one that works.

Quote from jl8e >>

The sentence "Your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined by whatever feature gives you the ability to cast the spell." can absolutely be read as the stat being determined by the class the feature belongs to, since that class has a spellcasting stat.

 

 It's not how it's meant to be read. The feature that give you the ability to cast THE spell is the one that has to determine your spellcasting ability for it" What you claim amount to using another feature's spellcasting ability for a different one.

Quote from jl8e >>

The sentence "Your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined by whatever feature gives you the ability to cast the spell." can absolutely be read as the stat being determined by the class the feature belongs to, since that class has a spellcasting stat.

 A class is not a feature. Also, spellcasting ability isn't the only issue -- can you use a focus? 

I think RAI is "if a class feature gives you the ability to cast a spell, it functions like the Spellcasting or Pact Magic trait unless specified otherwise", but it's certainly never explicitly stated.

Another game feature not determining a spellcasting ability is the Epic Boon of Revelry with which you can cast Otto’s Irresistible Dance once without a spell slot....what is the save DC?

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Another game feature not determining a spellcasting ability is the Epic Boon of Revelry with which you can cast Otto’s Irresistible Dance once without a spell slot....what is the save DC?

 That's just a badly written feat; other similar feats specify that spell DC is based on the attribute raised when you take the feat.

Interestingly, from the same book, they wrote the Genie Magic feat well.

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Interestingly, from the same book, they wrote the Genie Magic feat well.

I don't think any of the original Epic Boons from the PHB involved spells, so if they were just using a template that might be why that bit of text got missed. Still should have been caught somewhere in the editing/playtesting process though

Quote from AntonSirius >>

I don't think any of the original Epic Boons from the PHB involved spells.

No, but Fey Touched and Shadow Touched are General feats that add spells.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from jl8e >>

The sentence "Your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined by whatever feature gives you the ability to cast the spell." can absolutely be read as the stat being determined by the class the feature belongs to, since that class has a spellcasting stat.

 It's not how it's meant to be read. The feature that give you the ability to cast THE spell is the one that has to determine your spellcasting ability for it" 

What you claim amount to using another feature's spellcasting ability for a different one.

 What's the problem with that? What, in terms of actual text of the rules, says you can't do that?

The likely main purpose of that text is for multiclassing. If you're an artificer/warlock, you cast your spells from artificer features with int, and your spells from warlock features with cha. Because those are the classes' spellcasting stats. You can't use whichever casting stat is better.

But it also generalizes to the single-classed case. You still cast your spells from warlock features with charisma, barring anything saying otherwise.

As far as I'm concerned, there are two problems. The designers were a bit sloppy in not crossing their i's and dotting their t's when it comes to class-feature-granted spells. But that's a minor problem.

The other problem is people who are dead-set on following this ambiguity down a hole that leads to insisting the RAW is inherently broken, when there are perfectly cromulent readings that don't do that.

It's how the rules say your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined; from the feature that give you the ability to cast the spell.  There's no ambiguity here.

Reading the rules differently may come to different conclusion. And very different result, especially for characters that can cast spells with various trait, feat or feature. 

Quote from jl8e >>

The other problem is people who are dead-set on following this ambiguity down a hole that leads to insisting the RAW is inherently broken, when there are perfectly cromulent readings that don't do that.

This is a case of "RAW is broken but RAI is fairly obvious so it's just a bit annoying".

Also can we just disagree with each other without saying other problem is people posting please, this is Forum Discussion on rules afterall. 

Good grief. Finding some abiguity in the rules doesnt mean common sense is off the table.

I assume everyone agrees that warlock invocation spells use warlock casting ability, i.e. charisma?

For feats like Fey Touched, i believe the 2024 version says the ability used to cast the spell is the ability increased by the feat. Fairly clear.

For a boon that doesnt specify which abikility to use, how would it matter if the player simply chose at the time they take the feat? 

The only way i can see this ambiguity being abused would be someone playing a wizard/warlock multiclass, they set charisma to13 and int to 20, and then try to argue that the warlock invocations allow them to use INT to cast the spell. Common sense would say absolutely not the intention of the rules. A dm could home-brew allow it, but no player could reasonably argue this position for any reason other than to abuse the rules.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

Good grief. Finding some abiguity in the rules doesnt mean common sense is off the table.

 Remember, this is the Rules and Game Mechanics forum. It's about what the rules actually say, not what a DM would rule at the table. It's also not just casting stat:

• Armor of Shadows, Ascendant Step, Fiendish Vigor, Gift of the Depths, One with the Shadows, Visions of Arcane Realms, and Whispers of the Grave allow casting spells with an M component. Can you use a warlock focus to cast them?
• Mask of Many Faces, Misty Visions have save DCs. Does a Rod of the Pact Keeper apply?
• Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions are illusion spells. Do they benefit from the GoO Psychic Spells trait?

I think most DMs will rule yes for all three, but RAW using a focus is a feature of the Spellcasting trait and thus doesn't apply to spells from other sources, and the other two only apply to Warlock spells.

Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus as a Spellcasting Focus for your Warlock spells.

I remember a conversation about this in Feat granted spells and how they apply.

EDIT: so in my case, the same ruling for Psychic Spells applies:

When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage...

Or Rod of the Pact Keeper:

... you gain a bonus to spell attack rolls and to the saving throw DCs of your Warlock spells ...

None of the invocations give spells that are on the Warlock spell list.

 Only Invisibility (One with Shadows), I think: Level 2 Illusion (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)