Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in- Marketplace
Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in
Feel free to explain your answer.
I voted for 2014. The contested checks model just makes more sense than the arbitrary DC 15 requirement.
I prefer 2014 for Contest to become unseen and unheard as opposed to 2024 with DC 15 to have the Invisible condition.
2014: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2014/combat#UnseenAttackersandTargets
2024: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/rules-glossary#HideAction
2014 rules for Hide say see rules for unseen attackers. Those rules go on a longwinded merry go round explaining that if you are unseen, such as being invisible or hidden, here are the rules for that.
2024 rules for Hide say if you hide, you have invisible condition.
Everything else is practically identical. Its shorter, its cleaner. Its to the point.
The only folks having trouble with this are folks who think somehow the 2024 rules suck because they dont list every possibility for hiding or coming out of hiding, but the 2014 rules for "unseen attackers" leave a huge amount open to interpretation, open to the dm to decide.
The only other difference is 2014 used a contested check and 2024 uses a dc15 to hide and then a perception check with a dc of what you rolled to see you.
In 2014 rules, a contested check didnt actually make sense because the thing you were hiding from wasnt actively trying to percieve you so they shouldnt make an active perception check. The 2014 solution? Rolll your stealtg check against their PASSIVE PERCEPTION, which everyone complained about
2024 rules? Roll stealth check against a flat dc 15. If you succeed, you are hidden, remember what you rolled.
If a creature takes the Search action, the dc is what you rolled on your stealth check.
The difference? In 2014, when you did a stealth check, the enemy got a free Search action on your turn, a full perception check on your turn without even using their Reaction. Thats how the 2014 contestee skill check worked. Which made the Search action kinda pointless and features that sped up the perxeption action to a bonus action kinda pointless. Why invest resources in things that speed up your search action when the most important time you need to percieve someone in combat, you get a full Search action in zero time.
2024? If you successfully hide, and you remain where you are, the only way the enemy can find you is if they burn resources and take the Search action to make a Perception check to find you.
2024 rules means the enemy doesnt get a free perception check against you when you hide. Instead they have to actually spend resources looking for you.
My vote? 2024 by far is better
Except 2024 does a contested check but in 2 steps
You roll stealth. 15 dc to hide.
If you hide, and if enemy takes Search action to look for you, they make a perception check with a dc equal to what you rolled.
The math is exactly the same. The only difference is 2014 gave th3 enemy a free Search action whenever you tried to hide. In 2024 rules, you hide on a stealth check of 15 or better, and the enemy has to use a search action to look for you
Which is the entire point of passive scores.
As i said: "In 2014 rules, a contested check didnt actually make sense because the thing you were hiding from wasnt actively trying to percieve you so they shouldnt make an active perception check. The 2014 solution? Rolll your stealtg check against their PASSIVE PERCEPTION, which everyone complained about"
Passive perception scores are likely too high.
If you are NOT actively searching, you shouldnt have nearly as good of a perception check.
If passive and active perception are on par with each other, then a contested steath-vs-passive perception is still equivalent to a FREE (no action) Search Action.
Passive Perception is 10+perception modifiers which is basically an average perception check (avg roll is 10.5) and if you have advantage on perception checks then your passive perception gets a +5, but statistically, advantage is more like a +4.
The thing is passive perception means you are NOT ACTIVELY LOOKING, so it should probably be more like 5+percption mod with a +2 if advantage.
If your passive perception is jusst an average active perception roll, then its effectively a free Search action.
First of all, it's by no means identical. Secondly, making it cleaner would be "Invisible: you cannot be seen. See rules for unseen attackers" and then not using the invisible status for hiding creatures, because hiding creatures can be seen, it just requires a roll.
"First of all, it's by no means identical. "
Its the rogue's stealth check versus the monsters perception roll, so its still a contested check. Wxcept now the monster doesnt get a free Search without taking the Search action. Win for thr rogue.
"then not using the invisible status for hiding creatures,"
Hang on. You think having the Invisible condition means youve turned on your predator cloaking suit?
Lets just go back to the 2014 rules for invisible.condition:
"Invisible: An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. "
Well that doesnt make any sense. If your invisible, you also have the heavily obscured condition? But only for the purpose of hiding?
From 2014 rules on hiding: "You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. "
If youre heavily obscured while invisible, then yoh can try to hide even while standing in front of an enemy.
Ok. So im invisible, but also i have the "heavily obscured" condition, but only for the purpose of hiding.
What did heavily obscured mean again? "A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area."
Right. If im invisible, creatures have thr blinded condition when trying to see me.
But theyre not REALLY BLIND. They are assigned a condition, blindness but only apllies for when they looke at me, an invisible pc, who is heavily obscured for purposes of the hiding action.
So, 2014 used plenty of screwy conditions asociated with invisibility and hiding that werent literally true. An invisible.person isnt "hevily obscured. He isnt in a fog cloud or total darkness. And creatures who look him arent going to go blind. Again, just a condition. Not literal.
In every case in the rules other than hide, that's exactly what the invisible condition means.
Make a poll, only to argue with anyone who disagrees with you?
I did say "feel free to comment".
Ah. Well when your invisible, For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. BUT ONLY FOR INVISIBLE AND HIDING TOGETHER!!!
In every other case but invisible, "heavily obscured" means something like heavy brush, fog cloud, or something blocking the view. But with invisible, i can see through you and the grid square youre on just fine.
You know "blinded" generally means cant percieve through your eyes. No vision. But in heavily obscured areas, creatures have the blinded conditon, even though they can still see?
If you demand consistency, youll wage war against thr entire phb.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/239671-should-passive-perception-be-lower
That does seem to be the trend…
I would note that the vast majority of monsters either have passive perception less than 15, or have an ability (blindsight or truesight) that makes 2024 stealth completely useless, so the primary beneficiary of using passive perception is PCs.