Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Search Action: when you spend an entire Action doing something like an active Perception check.
Active perception check: roll 1d20 and add perception modifiers, roll 2d20 if advantage.
Passive Perception: reflects how aware you are when you are NOT actuvely spending your entire Action doing the Search Action.
Passive Perception: 10 + percption modifier. If advantage on active perception, add 5
The main issue is when the bbeg is fighting 3 melee characters, they are not burning an Action to Search for the Rogue. So when the Rogue tries to Hide in 2014 rules, the rogue did a Contested Check: rogues stealth versus bbeg's passive perception.
Except the formula for Passive perceptiin is exactly an average Roll for the bbeg burning an Action to take the Search Action and perform a Perception check.
TEN is the average roll for a d20. TEN + perception modifiers is an average roll for an active perception check.
If the bbeg is too busy to take the active Search Action, but gets a passive percptiin exactly on par with an active Search Action used to do a Perception Check, then doesnt Passive Perception basically give everyone a FREE/NO ACTION Search action against anyone trying to hide?
Seems like if the bbeg is busy fighting off a bunch of melee charavters, then they should be distracted just a tiny bit, and their PASSIVE PERCEPTION should be quite a bit lower than their average Search Action to do a Perception Check.
I.e. an active Search action to do an active perception check should be a bit better than a distracted creature catching out of the corner of their eye that the rogue is sneaking up behind them?
I dont know what thr passive perception should be. Maybe 5+perception mod and if advantage then add 2.
Or maybe 8 +half perception mod and if advantage addd 2.
But i dont think "out of the corner of your eye" passive perception should be as good as spending your action doinf nothing but searching.
Why would they still not have passive perception? You can call it perephial vision.
You can be fighting A/B/C/D/etc. and still see things out of the corner of your eye. I assume based on your question you don't have any experience where you are doing several things and still need to see things. Many large team sports are examples, same with babysitting multiple kids at public playground, military life in the field is another example, I am sure there are more.
Babysitting multiple kids is a great example of how you need to pay attention to several individuals and still need to keep your eyes open to see something else.
Just a bit of slant in the survey options, hmm?
If you do the opposite for the players, they are going to start complaining real quick. The entire point of passive perception is that it’s a floor that you have to beat in order to successfully hide or be unnoticed. If you have low passive perception, any traps in an area with be undetected and possibly spring on you, if you have high passive perception, you would know there’s traps in a certain area and be able to coordinate better that way.
Imagine being a Druid with a 20 in Wisdom, you have a Passive Perception of 19 or higher because it’s an important skill. A creature hides and beats the Hide dc, but goes below your Passive Perception, you should notice them right? But oh no, the dm made a random judgment that actually, since your distracted fighting, you don’t notice them at all and they still hide. It completely screws over the importance of that skill and hurts characters who focus on perception more than those who dump it.
Other than in the early stages of a career, rogues generally have no trouble beating most passive perceptions. You should have expertise (double your proficiency bonus for stealth checks) at first level. And, at seventh level you get reliable talent. By eighth level (assuming pure rogue), your modifier for stealth checks should result in a minimum roll of 20 (assuming a dex of 18). I am currently playing a ranger (5th level)/rogue (8th level) who can't roll below a 25 on stealth checks. There aren't too many monsters with that high of a passive perception.
When I've failed stealth checks playing rogues, its generally been at 4th level or lower.
In practice, the BBEG passive perception vs. rogues stealth is generally a non-issue.
The rules on Passive checks are vague. However, the general (and only) rule appears to be that you use Passive checks when the DM doesn't want to alert the players. That is, a Passive check is the check to see if the character is aware enough to realize they should be actively checking for something.
So Passive Perception might clue you that there might potentially be a hidden enemy somewhere around but you'd still need to take an Action to roll the Search check.
Your babysitting multiple kids. One of them is trying to sleight of hand candy out of a jar.
You spend your entire action Searching, doing an active perception check, watching that kid as they atand next to the candy jar.
And youre telling me you should have EXACTLY THE SAME level of perception of catching them sneaking candy if instead you spend all of your actions, bonus actions, and movement keeping 3 other kids from falling off the balcony on the other side of the room
People have clearly become enchanted with the rules and havent stopped to think what the rules mean.
The difference between 2014 Hide and 2024 Hide is
in 2014, the rogue does a contested stealth check against the bbeg's passive perception check, which is exactly the same as them burning an entire action searching for the Rogue.
In 2024, the rogue does a stealth check, dc 15, on success they are hidden. The bbeg doesnt get to percieve the rogue unless they stop and take a Search Action to do a Perception check dc equal to whatevrr the rogue rolled for stealth.
In 2014 hide rules, a passive perception check was just as good as a full active search.
In 2024 hide rules, passive perception doesnt apply. The rogue hides if they succeed on a dc 15 stealth check. And the monsters dont get a free no action Search Action free Pereption check. The monster actually has to take the Search action if they want to look for the rogue.
Anyone who thinks a free passive perception corner-of-eye check should be just as good as an active Seach Action->Perception Check has forgotten what the rules even mean.
2024 rules for Hide completely solve this problem by removing the free passive check from the sequence.
Nope. You spend 6 seconds active taking the Search Action looking for the Rogue
Or
You take 6 seconds to Attack the Paladin, Bonus Action light attack the Cleric, Opportunity attack the Druid who is running away from you, while watching the rogue behind 3/4 cover, somewhere out of your direction of view and you side glance to see what he's up to.
BOTH of those perceptions of the rogue have the same capability in 2014, and its actually crazy.
But, 2024 solves it by removing the contested stealth versus passive perception check. The bbeg doesnt get a free SideEyeGlance thats somehow just as effective as 6 seconds of doing nothing but watching the rogue like a hawk. The passive perception is gone from the equation.
Hide is stealth dc 15. To percieve, you must take the Search Action and not distract yourself with Attacks or Bonus Actions. And your perception check must be higher than what the rogue rolled for stealth.
It fixes everything wrong with the 2014 rules for Hiding. By doing a complete end run around the passive perception corner of your eye check somehow being just as good as 6 seconds intently searching.
Now rhat passive perception is removed from Hide rules. The thing left to fix is passive perception itself.
And the only way to NOT fix it is to say a side glance corner of your eye peek is just as effective as 6 seconds doing nothing but a perception check.
And do people vote that because they actually believe it? Or do they vote that way because theyre used to that being the rule for over a decade?
I spend my entire turn doing nothing but watch the rogue. Youre saying i can be just as effective in keeping an eye on the rogue if all my actions and bonus actions and such are all focused somewhere else and i just side eye the rogue?
And you’re saying that adding another layer of complexity that’s completely redundant is a smart move? I did not know you were an expert game designer.
If it’s 2014, you’re nerfing ONLY characters with good perception anyways by forcing them to waste an action because their passive perception is suddenly lower because… dm said so.
If it’s 2024, the Passive Perception doesn’t even do anything at all, so you wasted your time fixing a issue that isn’t even real.
Passive Perception still exists in 2024 rules. And its definition is still wonky:
2024 PHB: "Passive Perception is a score that reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check."
If you are actively searching and your average perception check while actively searching is 18, then how is your perception check when you are not acticely taking the Search Action also 18?
Players are crawling a dungeon, taking it slow, being xarefule, looking for traps, looking for ambushes. The DM knows there are a bunch of kobolds around the next corner but doesnt want to ask for a perception check because asking players to make a perception check will alert them to something being nearby.
But theyre being careful and taking it slow, so using their average active perception check makes sense.
But if the players are busy fighting some goblins, and a kobold is setting up for a sneak attack, the dm shouldnt use the average of their active search perception check. Because theyre not actively checking for anything. Theyre in combat.
But you dont want to ask for a perception check because that tips off the players. So, what value should the dm use? Half their Passive Perception? calculate their average roll for actively searching, and divide by 2?
The issue with passive perception messing up the Hide action is gone in 2024, but the definition still points to the same problem. If the players are actively searching, if theyre moving slow and being cautious, and theres an ambush ahead that you want to know if they see it, but you dont want to ask because asking tips them off, you would use the passive perception acore calculation.
Makes sense.
But if theyre in combat, not being careful, not taking their time, and theyre about to walk over a trap door, but you dont want to ask for a perception check because that will alert them, you certainly wouldnt use their passive perception based on the average result of an active Search Action. They're swinging swords and grappling giant octopi. Theyre not Searching.
What score do you use to determine if they see the trapdoor before someone steps on it when the party isnt searching and everyone is distracted
That’s quite a lot of spelling errors in there, but that’s beside the point. Do you know both 5e and 5.5e already have mechanics that fill in what you proposed? 5e's travel rule has it so when you're travelling at a Fast pace, you have Disadvantage (or a -5 on your passive) on Perception checks, in fact, Dim Light and any Light Obscuration does the same exact thing in combat.
5.5's travel rules are even more refined in this matter, Disadvantage on Perception and Stealth when you go Fast, Disadvantage on Stealth when you move normally and Advantage on Perception when you go slow.
Your definition of combat is ill defined, is combat when you’re in initiative? Or is it when you’re fighting a certain amount of enemies. What about enemies that are very distant and using ranged attacks? What you want is so poorly explained that it you as well say “it happens whenever I want”.
Traveling fast : -5
Traveling normL pace: +0
Dim light: -5
Normal light: -0
In combat, not even looking,: +0
Actvely searching: roll average: same as passive +0
If you are actively searching as you crawl a dungeon, moving carefully, constantly looking for traps, then passive perception score matches your actions, matches what youre doing
if you are dashing down the dungeon every turn, not sesrching, or if you are Attacking every turn, not searching, it should be the same -5 to your passive perception score.
But then the definition says "Passive Perception is a score that reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check"
Thats actually wrong or at the very least misleading. If you tell the dm you are crawling the dungeon carefully looking for traps and ambushes, youre Searching every turn, then Passive Perception reflects your behavior.
If you are dashing down the dungeon tunnel every turn, not Searching at all, if you are not "consciously making a wisdome(perception) check", if you are not actively searching, then that should be a -5 to your passive perception. Which would mean in combat, when everyone is attacking and no on is taking the Search action, it should be a -5.to Passive Perception.
Passive Perception says its what to use when your not consciously Searching, but it gives a score as if you were actively Searching.
If we use the Passive Perception score as is, the defonition should be
"Passive Perception is a score that reflects a creature’s awareness of its surroundings when it is actively searching. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without asking the player to make an active perception check, which usually tips off players that something is happening that they are not seeing."
And how does this benefit the game in any way?
Hahahaa. Youre changing the subject.
If the rules are inconsistent, and its pretty clear they are, you can say yeah, its wonky, but we've been doing it that way for a decade or more, and i dont want to change to a more consistent rule. Thats cool.
But its not my question. My question is are the rules around passive perception consistent with how its defined and all the ways its used. And the answer is clearly "no"
"If you have low passive perception, any traps in an area with be undetected and possibly spring on you, if you have high passive perception, you would know there’s traps in a certain area and be able to coordinate better that way."
Yeah. Thats awesome. If youre a druid, and you tell the dm youre being carefull as you move down the dungeon at a slow and cautious speed, looking for traps and ambushes, cool, the dm uses the 10+perceptmod passive number to check if you see anything.
If you tell the dm you run down the tunnel dashing every turn, then the dm should use the (10+perceptmod) -5 for not searching
And during combat, unless you take the Search Action, youre not searching, so if the dm wants to determine if you see the ambush or sneak attack during combat without asking for a roll and alerting you to something being up, the consistent approach would be to throw on a -5 for not searching.
I built a high perception, high observability character recently. Was trying to max out my perception and investigation checks. And i rememeber looking at the Observant feat from 2024.
Its a +1 int and expertise on one observant skill check. Which is pretty blah for a feat
It also includes Quick Search, ehich lets you makr a perception check as a bonus action.
But that just means id be buying a feat to use a bonus action to try an active perception roll that will on average be the same as the Passive Perception i already get for zero cost and zero actions.
2024 Observer Feat, Quick Search makes you pay to do a thing you can already do just as good as the feat does, but you can already do it for free
And thats all because Passive Perception is defined as how well you can percieve something when youre not actively taking the Search action, but it gives you a roll as if you took the Search Action.
And that is completely inconsistent.
Not really, I think your reasoning is inconsistent.
@SunIsGettingRealLow Can I assume you were the rouge and the BBEG saw you with passive perception?
There is a benefit to making a check, rather than using passive perception: you have a 50% chance of getting better than average.
I'm very confused. Under your new paradigm, under what circumstances would a player ever roll for perception? Apparently, they either use passive perception with a penalty, or they use passive perception with no penalty. How could a character ever get above their passive perception score when looking for something like a secret door or a trap?
Passive Perception was invented for 2 reasons.
One was to take the rogue who wants to roll perception every 5 foot grid square and hand wave it to a single static number. It makes the dungeon crawl a lot faster. If thr rogue says theyre going slow and checking for traps and ambushes, use their passive perception which is their average active search perception check and use that to figure out what they see without a roll every grid square. Speed up the crawl.
Two: allow the dm to ambush the players. The goblins want to hide. In 2014 that was an opposed check. So the goblins roll stealth and the dm either asks for a perception check and alerts the players that something is going on, OR the dm uses passive perception for thr check to avoid alerting the players. If the goblins stealth beat the passive perception, the goblins get a surprise round. Thats 2014. But 2024 rewrote most of this. Surprise round is nerfed to roll initiative at disadvantage, and stealth check is a flat dc 15.
So in 2024 rules the dm doesnt need to quietly do an opposed stealth/perxwption check using players passive perception to avoid alerting the players that somethings up.
Now, the dm just rolls a stealth check, dc 15 for the goblins, and if they succeed, they are hidden.
But then the surprise round is gone, so ambushing the players doesnt do much mechanically speaking.
But in 2024 rules, if the players say they are crawling the dungeon carefully, slowly, checking for traps and ambushes, the dm can still avoid a d20 roll every 5 ft grid by using passive perception of 10 + perception modifiers.
If they're runnign, then throw a -5 penalty to the passive check. And they might right into a spike pit.
If the players enter a room, the rogue might check for traps and the dm would likely have them do an actual roll rather than handwave with passive perception.
Active rolls dont go away. Passive checks are for speeding up a map crawl and to avoid alerting the players. Like its always been.
The one and only difference is that since passive perception has a score equal to the characters active Search Action Perception Check, that would be the score to use when the players announce theyre moving slowly and searching, but when the players are NOT searching anynuse of passive perception would take a -5 penalty. And the most common place that would show up is combat, since players usualt dont take the Search action,.they tend to shoot first and search for loot after.
Thats really the only change. If not actively searching, passive perception takes a -5 penalty. And that usually means combat.
In a dungeon crawl phase, going down various tunnels, slowly, carefully, use passive perception as before. If dashing through the dungeon and not searching, use a -5 penalty as before.
Its called passive perception, but its score is calculated using an active search perception check. The name is misleading. Its more of a meta perception used to get through large chunks of a map without rolling every 5 feet, but the players are actively searching.
10+perception mods is an average roll of an active search action for a perception check.
So if players are actively searching, everything is same. But if players arent actively searching, if they are dashing down the hall or id they are busy with combat, its a -5. And running down the hall already gets the -5.
The ONLY difference is to recognize that combat is not actively searching. So it shoudl get a -5 as well.
When doing a dungeon crawl, the dm usually wont allow you to make a perception check every 5 foot square. Thats when passive perception comes in. It uses your average active Search Action Perception Check value.
If you roll, you have 50% chance of being higher than that, but you also turn thr dungeon crawl into a slog for everyone.
So passive perception was invented to hand waive a lot of that.
If you enter a room and say you look for trsps, loot, secret doors etc, the dm will likely allow you to roll once for the entire room. Maybe a player can help and you roll at advantage. But if you roll an 8, most dms will not let you keep rolling until you find the secret door.
So while rolling can potentially let you roll higher it also has its mechanical limits. Usually one roll per room. Which means theres some meta going on with active rolls too