Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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If you roll an 18 on your stealth check, you beat the DC15 and are hidden.
This is true, even if the enemy nearby has a passive perception of 20.
if the Dexterity(Stealth) check is an opposed check against the enemy's passive perception (20), then this is just 2014 rules. If its an opposed skill check, then the DC15 is irrelevant.
This would suggest that the enemy's passive perception does not apply during your turn as you attempt to hide.
Which would suggest that a creature's passive perception only works during the creature's actions.
I disagree. No action is required for Passive checks -- they are just always on.
The DC 15 is the difficulty of concealing yourself at all. If you try this in the vicinity of a nearby monster with high passive Perception then you might successfully conceal yourself but then just become instantly found.
You might attempt to conceal yourself ahead of time such as to set up an ambush or prepare to sneak into an enemy camp. Or you might attempt to hide to change the current status quo of currently being seen (or more generally, "located") during combat. Either way, the DC is to take the concealing action and then whether or not you are found is adjudicated separately if an enemy is or later on enters the vicinity.
When you are trying to find a hidden object or creature, you take the Search action and make a perception check. Passive Perception only applies when you aren't making a perception check.
Think of it this way, once you successfully Hide, passive perception could give someone a reason to Search for you but does not automatically find you.
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Again... are you suggesting this is how the rules actually work right now, or are you saying this is how you would like them to work?
This is the 2nd thread you started for the same reason. your other thread has a 84.6% vote against you. I assume Can I assume you were the rogue and the BBEG saw you with passive perception, and you are trying to weasel your way out of that ruling that went against you
Im asking. Because a lot of folks HATE the 2024 rules for hiding. But if 2024 hiding is a stealth roll versus passive perception check, then the dc 15 bit is completely irrelevant, and its no different than the 2014 rules except for syntactix differences.
With 2024 rules: no enemies are around, i try to hide for an ambush, i roll a 16 which beats the dc15, so im hidden.
But the moment i am in range of an enemy's senses, my 16 is immediately beaten by the enemies 18 passive perception.
Mechanically, thats no different than 2014 rules. Its a contested check: my active stealth roll versus the enemies passive perception. So why the hate?
The only mechanical difference i see is if all the enemies have horrible passivr perception, say 6 wisdom, wismod is -2, passive perception is 8 , then when you roll to hide in 2014 you had to beat an 8. In 2024 rules you also have a dc 15 minimum to beat. So i guess not irrelevant, but a... floor?
So its an opposed skill check: stealth versus whichever is greater (dc 15 or passive perception of enemies)
Wbich is nearly identical.to 2014 rules. So why the hate?
So i was thinking if the dc 15 is the important piece, one way it becomes key is if it mean you do NOT apply passive perception when the person is hiding, but only on the enemys turn later.
The 2024 definition for passive perception are a bit vague. So im asking.
If passive percwptjon only applies on your turn, then 2024 hide rules are mechanically quite different from 2014 rules.
If passive perception is aleays on, then 2024 rules for hide are an opposed skill check: stealth roll versus the greater of(dc15 or passive perception of nearby enemies), which means 2024 rules are, mechanicallh speaking, nearly identical to 2014 rules.
And if its nearly identical, why the absolute rage?
No, that's not it. Passive Perception is one way to find a hidden creature and by its nature it does happen automatically. It's not a two-step process. Passive Perception requires no action. Instead, it is used to determine if a creature notices something passively.
A lot of the details regarding passive checks have been removed from the 2024 PHB but there is some discussion of it in the DMG. In addition, Passive Perception has a Rules Glossary entry that describes how it works:
The Passive Perception mechanic really has not changed since the 2014 version.
No, this isn't true. The DC 15 basically represents a minimum requirement that didn't exist in 2014, but everything else works the same way. Keep in mind that a vast majority of published monsters have a Passive Perception score of under 15. The range where things no longer work as a straight contest are pretty much in that 10 - 14 range, or just 14 and under more generally. For example, a common low-level monster might have a Passive Perception score of 10. If you roll a 13 for Stealth, that monster notices you now. In 2014 it didn't.
It's not a very good design, but "irrelevant" isn't a good description of the role that the DC 15 requirement plays. It doesn't do nothing. It does cause things to work differently than in 2014 in a few cases.
In the cases where your stealth roll is slightly higher than 15 and the nearby monster happens to have an unusually high Passive Perception, then you are indeed hidden, but you are not hidden "well enough" to avoid the notice of this particular monster, which is totally fine and makes sense. Being hidden isn't meant to be permanent and unbreakable -- you are hidden until you are found. Depending on how well you roll you might be well hidden or not as well hidden and therefore are easier or harder to find, but never impossible to find.
There's also the "problem" that distances aren't codified anywhere except in exploration. If a creature has a passive perception of 17 and something got a 15 to Hide, how close does the detecting creature need to be in order to actually find the hidden one? This is all up to the DM at the moment, and yet another reason why I think "the DM determines..." language in the Hide skill is actually carrying a lot of weight.
up2ng: "No, this isn't true. The DC 15 basically represents a minimum requirement that didn't exist in 2014, "
As i said later in same comment: "its an opposed skill check: stealth versus whichever is greater (dc 15 or passive perception of enemies)"
up2ng: "Passive Perception has a Rules Glossary entry that describes how it works:"
Yeah. Unfortunately that bit doesnt say anything about WHEN it applies.
I dont remember where i read it, but 2024 rules were trying to shift the game so that Saves were to be things you did on someone elses turn. Checks were to be things you did on your turn.
"Notices something" is not defined and does inherently consider finding something. However, the Finding Hidden Objects section never references passive perception.
While the section is specific to objects, there is no equivalent for creatures. But I don't see any reason why a hidden creature would function any differently.
You can make an argument that Passive Perception can substitute for all "active" Perception checks, but I don't think that is appropriate.
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Having passive Perception only give a mild “ping” substantially defeats the point of it. Given that it is roughly even with a PC’s average roll, all making them roll for it after does is produce a chance for them to blow the roll even with favorable odds, creating a frustrating experience for the player(s) and providing no meaningful interaction. Either use it as a straight Perception check when you feel it’s applicable or don’t, but the only changes making it a two-step process does is potentially pull the rug from players who invested in Perception by giving them room to fail and basically negate PP having any value during initiative.
So in general, a character should be able to find anything that has a DC to find it (whether it be from Stealth or because it is a Trap or Hidden Door) that is at their Passive Perception or less, and Searching (making a Perception Check roll) should really only be used for things that have a DC higher than their Passive Perception.
Is that kind of what everyone is thinking? Basically, a character will never not notice something with a lower stealth/hidden/etc DC than their Passive Perception, but can only find things with a higher DC by using the Search Action?
No, the situation where it can be applied is at the DM’s discretion. I simply fail to see how adding an additional failure point to the process does anything but create room for a negative player experience.
My general take on how I'd prefer to use it (though rules are inconsistent) is that passive score is used as a DC for someone or something else rolling, whereas your bonus is used when you are rolling.
Oh, sure, I wasn't trying to argue one way or the other.
Right, where it would be applicable would be down to the DM.
I was just thinking when I DM I guess I use Passive Perception mostly for things like ambushes and such, but require active Searching (rolling Perception checks) when looking for things like hidden compartments and stuff like that. I was just wondering how other people ran it.
If the roll matters, Passive Perception shouldn't bypass it. If the roll doesn't matter, you shouldn't require a roll.
Passive Perception shouldn't defeat the point of the active roll.
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Incidentally, in an actual game I find "passive perception is for NPCs, the player always rolls" to be the best experience.
It's true, this isn't "codified" per se. It's meant to be up to the DM. The DMG does have a brief section which contains a table with some suggested Audible Distances for three different degrees of non-hiding noise levels ranging from "quiet" to "loud" and these are all very broad ranges. For example, at normal noise levels you might hear another creature when getting close enough to be 20 - 120 feet away from it with somewhat of a bell-shaped distribution (2d6 x 10 feet). However, this table is meant more for a DM to be able to set up initial positions of creatures on a map when two groups just sort of stumble upon each other without stealth. It doesn't directly translate to adjudicating the hiding rules. For example, we might be tempted to create an even shorter range than the "quiet" range for hidden creatures. But remember, this table is for when two groups automatically detect each other no matter what, even with a Perception of 0. This is when the other creature's presence becomes "obvious". Remember, the Perception skill (and more generally, all ability checks) are only used when the activity in question has a chance for success or failure -- so only in situations where the thing being found is "NOT obvious". Once you actually apply your senses of Perception to these scenarios, either actively or passively, the audible detection ranges should naturally increase. So, hiding should skew the audible distance in one direction while the use of Perception should skew the audible distance in the other direction. Whether these factors exactly cancel or there is a net skew in one direction or the other is entirely determined by the DM based on the particular situation.
This turns out to be true most of the time but not necessarily all of the time. Saves occur as an immediate response to a threat sort of like a reflex unless the effect specifies some other timing. This typically happens on someone else's turn. Active checks are the result of taking some sort of action which generally only happens on your own turn. Passive checks are different though because no action is required -- those behave more like Saves in terms of their timing -- they happen as an immediate response to something else happening. For example, the DMG mentions the possibility of using Passive Insight in some social interactions. Such use, if the DM desires to use that mechanic, does not represent taking the time to actively determine something about someone else -- it just happens passively with no action required in response to something relevant happening.
Yes, this is basically how it works although it's more than that as I think you get to on a later post. The caveat of course is that the DM determines when the situation is relevant for you to be able to apply this skill. You might have to be "close enough" or whatever before that skill check switches from "impossible" to "a particular DC" or whatever. For example, in the 2014 wilderness exploration rules it used to be that you could declare that your character was engaged in a particular "Activity While Traveling" which might be either "Noticing Threats" or "Navigating" or "Drawing a Map" or "Tracking" or "Foraging" among potential other activities. In this case, if you were doing anything other than "Noticing Threats" then you were explicitly "not watching for danger" and therefore you "don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats". Essentially, engaging in or being distracted by such activities dropped your Perception to 0. For many reasons, these details were removed from the 2024 rules so that now it is simply up to the DM to determine whether or not your Passive Perception skill can be used at any particular moment.
Yes, this is the additional detail. So, what you said before that "Searching (making a Perception Check roll) should really only be used for things that have a DC higher than their Passive Perception" is only sort of half correct.
The key is that the active Perception roll is only called for when the player declares that their character is taking a particular action and you determine that the outcome of that action has a chance for success or failure. Really such a check should not be called for out of the blue by the DM even though a lot of people do play that way. Nor should a player just request to make such a check. Instead, the DM describes the scene, the player explains what their character does and then the DM adjudicates the outcome, possibly calling for an active check. If the character is not actively searching for something, then they really shouldn't make an active check at all -- only a passive one if a passive check is relevant to the situation.
Again, the key here in the rules text that you've quoted is that the active check applies "when your character searches" for something. This is talking about actively searching which is basically, taking the Search action. This is for when a player declares that his character is looking for something in the environment. If instead the PCs are merely just walking from Point A to Point B while staying generally alert, then that is the purview of Passive Perception and that rules text doesn't really apply to that situation.
"Notices something" doesn't need to be any further defined -- it is self-explanatory. That phrase is still used in several places although it was even more prominent in the 2014 PHB. In 2024, a lot of that language has been moved from the PHB and into the DMG.
For example, the following is still the recommended method of beginning an encounter which is largely unchanged from 2014, including the "notices something" phrase:
In context, when examining the many different rules that are spread out across multiple books, it is pretty clear that "noticing a threat" is pretty much equivalent to "finding" another creature. For example, if a creature has set up an ambush with a Hide action and the related Stealth Check then when it is time for combat to begin if the enemy creatures have not yet "found" or "noticed" these hidden creatures then we generally begin with Surprise and these creatures have an opportunity to attack from hidden positions as Unseen Attackers. In contrast, the above rule specifies that if there are no hidden creatures then they are "noticed" (found) automatically and then we potentially begin combat from that game state instead. By extension, if the target creatures somehow "find" (notice) the threat (by any means) of the hidden creatures before combat begins then they likely won't be surprised and the creatures who attempted to set up the ambush will not be hidden when combat begins. Finding such creatures in this moment could happen via an active Perception check or via the Passive Perception mechanic or via some other feature or benefit such as Divine Sense or Tremorsense or whatever else.
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Anyway, this thread was really all about a conjecture that the presence of the DC 15 requirement for the Stealth Check in the 2024 rules somehow means that the Passive Perception mechanics have been changed, otherwise this requirement is "irrelevant". This is false. The Passive Perception mechanics remain the same but indeed the new DC 15 requirement still DOES change the way that the hiding mechanics work in general.
If we want to veer any further into the weeds of how the hiding mechanics work in 2024 in general, then we should probably take that to the other ongoing general thread on the topic. I haven't had a chance to post there yet because it's a bit of an overwhelming thread full of pretty terrible and grossly inaccurate information, but I do plan on saying my peace over there at some point soon.
So when should it be used, under this paradigm? If the roll wouldn't matter, then presumably the thing should be something the DM will simply describe as part of the scene. The entire point of passive Perception is to allow for the DM to allow someone with good Perception to detect something that would otherwise go unseen without calling for a roll.
And hidden things require an active search in the correct area. Nonobvious details, that are not hidden, can still be perceived.
In 2014, Observant gave you a +5 to your Passive Perception, making it possible to get a Passive Perception of 10 + 12 (+6 x2 Expertise) +5 Wisdom + 5 Observant = 32 Passive Perception. You just walk around perceiving everything, never making a perception check.
In 2024, Observant no longer gives you a +5 and instead allows you to take the Search action as a Bonus Action. You can still have a 10 + 12 (+6 x2 Expertise) +5 Wisdom = 27 Passive Perception, possible higher.
As far as hidden objects and creatures, a Passive Perception can indicate that there is something to investigate, but the Search action is required.
Yes. Which is a requirement for finding hidden objects. There is no rule for finding them passively.
Noticed and found are not equivalent, particularly when your example does not involve hidden creatures or objects.
Agreed. I suppose it means that every DC to spot a hidden creature or object will be at least 15. The advantage however, is that you now have an objectively failed or successful check that can key off certain revised abilities, such as a Bard's Bardic Inspiration or an Artificer's Flash of Genius. There is the weird downside that if you barely succeed and want a higher roll, you can't use the abilities anymore.
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