Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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I'm a new player and I've rolled my first DnD character: a wee Sea druid (small-sized) that summons a fey deer (medium-sized) and rides him into the fray to hit enemies with his Wrath of the Sea emanation, then dashes away. We just hit level 3 and had our first (outdoor) combat encounter, where my druid played this skirmisher style - insane movement to get in, hit, and dash away without OA thanks to deer's Agile ability - and it honestly felt OP in that specific instance.
This led to my DM messaging me between sessions, saying we didn't play the summoned/mounted combat correctly. I got the idea for a summon-skirmisher build from some well-known content creators, so I feel like I played it exactly as I learned it. Either way, I don't want to bend any rules, but I also don't want to scrap this entire concept of a character that I've poured my heart into. We've both agreed that we'd dig into it more and adjust accordingly, so we could use your help interpreting the following:
DM: the rules for find familiar specifically state that this creature has its own initiative and turn during combat. so yeah,. you can ride on it, but you can only move it during its own turn.
DM: its considered a mount, but an independent mount. not a controlled mount, like a horse would be
It feels very reasonable that a creature you're linked to telepathically would be a controlled mount. You can literally control it with your mind to move where you want it, including delivering touch-range spells. However, I'm a new player, so my source can't be "Trust me, bro."
Can you help explain, preferably using established rules, which of us is correct in our thinking?
What book has the "Wee". I only have 2024 PHB and that is not in it. I looked it up on this sites species and could not find it either.
What is "OA" and "OP"? You wrote "I got the idea for a summon-skirmisher build from some well-known content creators, so I feel like I played it exactly as I learned it."
What is a content creator and how did you learn it? Where they official DND rules?
The more I read of your post the more I wonder how new you are because I feel I never ever played before based on how you are writing. You sound like some who has been playing for years, not rolling up your 1st character.
I rolled up my 1st one and could not figure out much, and didn't even understand anything spell wise. I still don't understand your question, yet this is your 1st character yet you were taught before?
Wee is just a word for small. Our DM is Scottish. He called my small-sized druid a "wee druid" and it stuck with me.
OA is an opportunity attack.
OP is a common way to shorten Over-Powered.
A content creator is... Wait, are you trolling me right now? If so, you got me. If you're not, I'm talking about folks who make D&D content and share it online (Shout out to D4).
Either way, thanks for the reply. I've been playing for a couple months, but I dove in head-first and I'm soaking up as much as I can.
Assuming you can mount the familiar ("A willing creature that is at least one size larger than a rider and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount"), you have really two options according to the Mounted Combat rules:
- Controlled: the Initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves on your turn as you direct it, and it has only three action options during that turn: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it.
Or:
- Independent: retains its place in the Initiative order and moves and acts as it likes.
So the first option adds some limitations to your familiar in terms of available actions. The second doesn't.
EDIT: there is an additional requirement: "You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider." EDIT#2: I don't know which familiar you have, so I guess that's a question for your DM. The ones listed in the spell are Bat, Cat, Frog, Hawk, Lizard, Octopus, Owl, Rat, Raven, Spider, Weasel, or another Beast that has a Challenge Rating of 0.
EDIT#3: I missed the "deer" part, sorry.
Your DM is correct, primarily because they are the DM and you are not. If you are looking to understand their reasoning then we can provide opinions.
The rules for familiars only do what they say, and they do not day the familiar is a trained and controlled mount. In truth, the player is not even actually given official control of the familiar by the rules at all - it is an ally and will follow instructions, but a DM could maintain their right to move the creature in combat. It is mostly for convenience and politeness that a DM might leave the moving of any summoned creatures up to their summoner, and might further simplify things by setting all those creatures to act at the same time in the initiative. That is not an invitation to exploit that situation.
Since you and the familiar act on different initiatives according to the rules, you can't use your emanation bonus action while it is moving. If you are allowed to ride it at all, then you could ride it into melee on its turn, act yourself on your turn, and ride away on its next turn.
A combat-ready controlled mount is not resource that is lightly handed out in this game. A Paladin gets access to one at level 5, and the cost of a warhorse otherwise is significant. Expecting a level 2 druid to get one is asking a lot.
Also, have you ever ridden a deer? Let alone a deer running at full pace through a crowd of angry people? I'd have asked for two skill checks to even get onto the damn thing.
In short, if you are looking to develop a cool character idea for your game, the person you should collaborate with is your DM, not a random content creator.
Yes, the DM is the ultimate authority at the table. To put your mind at ease, the DM and I are working together, toward a middle ground for the character and wanted to root out the pertinent rules. He's a first time DM and I'm a first time player, so I'm asking around for us both. He's doing the same with other DM friends. Try to reframe it for yourself like this: we're collaborating, not at odds with each other. Please hold onto your assumptions about "random content creators", etc.
Kinda odd to ask if I've ever ridden a deer, as if it's some sort of qualifier. I haven't, but I bet it could if I had a telepathic link to one that I could summon and it followed my commands. Two skill checks? Yikes.
Thanks anyway for weighing in.
OP mentioned that it was a Deer. That's a beast with a CR of 0.
Yes, your wee druid qualifies to ride your braw (?) deer. It is one size larger and it can carry you. A deer/familiar deer is not trained to accept a rider and so it will be considered an independent mount. As an independent mount, it will move on its turn and the two of you cannot move during your turn (you can dismount or mount it by expending movement equal to half your speed and move independently while dismounted). Tarod_'s post has the link to the full mounted combat rules.
You should be able to telepathically command your deer mount and, as a familiar, it obeys your commands.
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I appreciate it. Thanks all.
I missed the "deer" part, sorry.
I might push back against what some folks are saying here about it not being a "controlled mount".
From what I can see, the only thing describing what makes a mount "controlled" is:
It doesn't say it has to have been trained to be proficient with a rider, or anything even about training to take directions from a rider. Only that it must be trained to accept a rider.
As a familiar is not actually a beast but a spirit that takes the form of a beast, and that entity obeys your commands, it would seem it would already be "trained" (forced to) to accept you as a rider. You simply command it to accept you, and it does so. A big part of training something like a horse to be ridden is 1. getting it to accept and be comfortable with all of the things that it takes to be ridden (having a saddle and harness put on it, being mounted, having a creature on its back, etc), and 2. getting it to follow directions from the rider. With a familiar, these are already done. It will accept you as a rider because you command it, and it will follow directions because it explicitly says it will in the spell.
There's also no indication that the familiar acts like a natural beast of whatever type it is. It takes the form of the beast (cat, frog, bat, etc), but anyone playing it as the cat familiar chasing mice or the frog familiar splashing in a puddle is just adding flavor. It isn't stated they act how that beast would act, and so assuming that a deer familiar would still act skittish or unable to be ridden because it is a "wild animal and not domesticated" is reading into the rules something that it doesn't say.
There's also nothing in the stat blocks of things like a warhorse or riding horse (that I can see) that indicates anything about them being able to be ridden/trained to be mounted. The "controllable mount" part is not any in-game tagged condition or feature. It is purely up to the DM to say "yes, this animal is a controllable mount".
Whether a level 2 druid should have access to a controllable mount is a different question. But I don't see that the familiar that obeys the commands of the caster could not be used as a controllable mount based on the description of what it means to be controllable.
Since you and the DM are working this out, maybe suggest you spend some downtime teaching the deer to act as a mount, so you can use it as controlled. Either just say it will take a certain number of long rests working with it, or make a few animal handling checks or something before you can use it as controlled.
If I were DM I’d probably just let it work. You aren’t actually riding a deer, you are riding a summoned spirit shaped like a deer, and one you have a telepathic connection to. Seems reasonable you could control it as a mount. And anyway, the spirit-deer has an AC of 13 and 4 hp, and those numbers won’t go up. Your trick is going to be fun, but that thing is going to die any time a ranged attacker gets annoyed at it, and any time it’s caught in an AoE or aura.
Yea I have to agree with this. A mount being controllable has to be an individual thing as the required training is individual. Some beasts (like horses) should perhaps be easier to train than others due to history but a familiar that you can talk to shouldn't be impossible to train (might even be an in-game progression).
This is, essentially, my exact "argument" -- although, I don't mean that like me & the DM are arguing. But you've captured all of my points for this to work.
This is where we're at with it. We've discussed different ways to compromise, and training was one of them; also floated the idea of a saddle, Mounted Combatant feat, etc. In my mind, a telepathic link to a summoned familiar would easily make it "controlled," but I can see how a house rule might be needed to rein in (ha) a gish-blaster with 100' of movement and doesn't provoke OAs.
Actually, this is also my opinion regarding controlling a familiar as a mount, so I agree with both you and Xalthu.
I didn't make my stance clear because I truly don't know what the usual ruling is among other DMs.
Well, I certainly wouldn’t make you invest a feat to use it. It’s not really even all that strong, certainly not OP.
Consider you could quite easily buy a horse, which would be a controlled mount right from the start. A riding horse is faster than a deer and has more hp, though with a lower AC. It doesn’t have the agile trait, but it doesn’t need it. A controlled mount can already take the disengage action to get you in and out of melee without provoking OAs. Granted, then it can’t dash, so it won’t be moving as far, but it’s still giving you great mobility, it will last longer than a day, and doesn’t cost a limited resource of a wild shape charge. To me, the deer thing is really little more than flavor/a slightly different spin on something you could easily do through other means.
And again, the thing is fragile. Even if you’re 100’ away, an intelligent enemy with a longbow will easily shoot it out from under you, leaving you prone 100’ from the fight.
And the whole strategy is only going to work well under a certain set of circumstances. You’re going to need a very wide open area for it to work, and that won’t happen every time. I don’t know if it’s a question of needing to be much reined in as you happened to have the right tool for the job in this instance.
Despite the name, please see Mounts and Other Animals for the list of common animals trained to accept a rider. Other creature entries will describe if they can be trained as a mount. For example, a Giant Space Hamster (Spelljammer) can because it is in the description of the creature (not the stat block) and the same for a Giant Seahorse. These are controlled mounts.
If it can be trained as a mount, it is a controlled mount, otherwise, it is uncontrolled. If you are sitting on top of your larger ally, they are an independent mount at best. This is the scenario for the familiar mount; it is independently intelligent creature that obeys the instructions you give it. You tell it to move 15 feet forward and it moves 15 feet forward when it is its turn to move. It is an independent mount.
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Keep in mind that it's "fragile" but dropping a normal mount to 0 HP means losing the mount while a familiar can be resummoned as the same creature. Also, unlike a standard mount, you can put your familiar in a familiar pocket when needed, for protection or convenience.
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I can't find where in the Mounts and Other Animals it suggests that these mounts are an exhaustive list of mounts that are controllable. In fact, I can't see anywhere where it says these mounts are controllable at all. They are simply listed as "Mounts and Other Animals".
The rules for a mount being able to be used as a mount is simply "A willing creature that is at least one size larger than a rider and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount, using the following rules." The rules for a controllable mount suggest "Domesticated horses, mules, and similar creatures have such training." A deer is fairly similar to a horse or a mule, and I think we can agree that a familiar would be more akin to a domesticated creature than a wild creature (you don't have to make any animal handling checks to control it, it obeys your every command, etc).
You say "...the familiar mount; it is independently intelligent creature...", but I don't know why we would assume it is intelligent. Its intelligence score is whatever it is for the animal form it has taken. It is no more or less intelligent than that beast is normally.
On top of that, an independent mount is states as "In contrast, an independent mount—one that lets you ride but ignores your control—retains its place in the Initiative order and moves and acts as it likes." This does not describe a familiar. A familiar does not ignore your control. It obeys your every command, even commands that would put it directly in danger. Because it does not ignore your control, it cannot be an independent mount.
A controllable mount is a mount that is trained to be controlled. The DM is free to rule that a familiar is or is not trained for that purpose.
It's not exhaustive. It's just the common ones. As I mentioned, when another creature can be trained, the entry typically mentions it.
A deer is anatomically similar to a horse or mule but is not domesticated, familiar or no. It is not trained to accept a rider.
It is intelligent enough to communicate with you and follow your instructions. Maybe I tend to run them more intelligently than intended as a holdover from 3.x days where their Intelligence increased with their master's level. I don't think so though.
Find Familiar
If you ride your Centaur ally, they don't become a controlled mount because they agree to follow your instructions. A familiar doesn't either.
The mounted combat rules are written with the standard mounts in mind. It is almost guaranteed that extreme edge cases like riding a non-standard familiar as a mount was taken into account. The Find Familiar rules don't even take into account that you shouldn't be able to select CR 0 Beast oddballs like a Giant Fly, Onyx, or Haungharassk.
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