Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in- Marketplace
Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in
So i want to ask how ppl think those spells work. in my opinion both of them can move even if is not written. Better you cannot move them but they can move.
1. It is not written bcs they attack the brain of the enemy, and enemy rationalizes. so to rationalize smt clamped on you it must still be there if it logically can. and specific beat general.
2. For phantasmal force the 10x10 is not its occupied space it is the maximum size of the illusion. The target is mind of creature, not actual space like web.
3. The within 5ft refers to immovable illusions like a bridge, puddle of lava, cages. Which do not move based on logic
4. look other 2nd lvl spell hold person is it weak ? if you fail save you are most propably done. If phantasmal force cannot move it becomes weak. easy or easier to ignore or bypass.
5. Now ill go to the to the other side of the river. There is also the inflict blind condition bcs of bag in your head well that makes it almost OP ( i say almost bcs hold person is freakish in terms of power). Effectively even if not truly blind and 2d8 dmg and a turn to try to dismiss spell when there is blindness/deafness although that does not require conc. so i dont know about that.
I'll stick to the main part which is movement ENTER phantasmal killer which is similar in wording, i ask around and unfortunately a lot of dm's even inside dnd beyond tell me it does not move bcs it doesnt state so RAW, worse i am told it makes no difference the dmg is passed.
What does it state though ? You tap into the nightmares of a creature you can see within range and create an illusion of its deepest fears. RAW specific beat general. Come on.... you dont see picture of your fear, you see the fear manifesting without restriction.
So if fear is smt hunting you victim is prompted to run even if it doesnt do so for reasons.
If fear is being in the middle of a volcanoe erupting. You are going there frodo style magma flows and rock is hurled, eagles aint coming for ya. prop you dont move a muscle. So it does make a difference.
what say you ? i say i want sage advice on that. mby sensory conditions which brain manifests and not physical ones are justified too in the spell (refering to blind) or whatever any1 imagine.
my personal interpretation of force is it is animated as is reasonable for the phenomenon, but doesn't actually provide any impairment other than the obvious ones [someone on the other side of an Illusionary wall would gain full cover benefits (so the bag doesn't blind but just everyone has full cover), if there's a din then others can't be heard, etc] so if you try something that would provide an impairment normally [ball and chain, stocks, iron maiden, etc] it doesn't actually cause restraint or similar conditions [strong against immobile enemies ig, but I think most enemies would struggle against restraints like stocks and then immediately break free]; for the bag thing intuitively it would be able to stay on until exiting the full spell AoE
force isn't weak per say, you can still box them in with a hazard they wouldn't want to cross and then just range blast them while they have to chuck pebbles or something, but it's not game breaking like if you were able to actually brazen bull someone
the phantasmal killer stuff seems to just be nominative, even if it doesn't move they still experience the effects of the spell the same as if it did, since the spell targets the creature and not an area. If the dm doesn't let it move [so long as it doesn't do extra stuff not in the spell description] then they're not really changing anything other than making your kill descriptions less cool.
of course obviously dm treatment of illusions is notoriously varied, so talk to them before building around what you think is a reasonable interpretation
Phantasmal Killer is the easy one: the actual illusion is just flavor text. It's a spell that does damage and applies disadvantage on ability checks and attacks; the location of the illusion is both unspecified and irrelevant.
Phantasmal Force is the messy one, because the spell really doesn't give any guidelines about what "treats the illusion as real" is supposed to mean, other than indicating how much damage it does. Presumably it doesn't apply status effects, but if you create an illusion of a force cage around the target, are they trapped? Seems a bit strong for a second level spell.
Phantasm spells are very weak considering the save and how often those saves happen.
Phantasmal force MUST fit inside a 10 ft cube. Not much room for a fireball.
The real power in a Phantasmal Force spell is its malleability, its ability to be almost anything you need against a humanoid.
From what I understand PhF doesn't kill but just renders unconscious.
Its best used as a perfect way to block a hallway or tunnel. Setting up an ambush or escape route.
The spell does NOT say that the effect must on the target but must be a 10 foot cube 60 feet from you that the target can see.
This is not correct. The damage dealt by both of these spells is as lethal as any other damage, and there's nothing in either spell about it knocking anyone Unconscious.
pronouns: he/she/they
I mean, the bridge example indicates it doesn't create a solid surface, so presumably if you just try to throw up a solid barrier they physically test, they'll go through it and somehow rationalize why they're able to. Something like a wall of fire would likely be a more plausible obstacle, but Darkness is also 2nd level and produces the same basic mechanical effect on the target- heavily obscuring an area- except covering a much smaller area, only affecting one creature, and having a free save at end of turn to end it.
There is no restriction given for the location of the cube. The Range parameter of 60 feet restricts where the target creature can be located when the spell is cast.
Phantasmal killer: The location is specified you target a creature. The illusion is in its head. its nowhere and everywhere. But what it sees has relevance on how it will react. Where is hold person?
Phantasmal force: For your example. The spell cannot lock you inside a cage if you try examine the cage you will get clues to disbelief. If you try ram the cage, you will end up on the other side of it np. Hold person on the other hand will not ask you anything make you a statue and till you get the save you get crited and between those 2 you rly thing phantasmal force is strong for lvl 2?
For Phantasmal Killer, what it sees does not change anything about how the creature reacts. Nothing in the spell states that it believes the illusion is real. Nor does it state how they could attempt to determine if it is real. The spell only does what it says it does, and it says it does psychic damage and gives them disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks. The way to think about this spell (in my opinion) is you are simply forcing them to see what they fear most, and it distracts and disturbs them so much that they have disadvantage and it hurts them mentally. Maybe you are forcing them to remember when their brother was slain by goblins, or imagining their wife being attacked by a Beholder. They don't actually believe it is actually happening, but the thought of their greatest fear fills their mind and causes the effects of the spell. They won't run from the illusion or try to attack the illusion, because they spell doesn't say they believe it to be real.
ok i accept that. it seems correct raw although it can still move!! i havent noticed the part about the victim believing the illusion nor has any1 in the past brought this forward. so now i take it as the victim has a mental breakdown and the illusion is not out there somewhere but is strictly in its head. The victim sees the wolf hunting it even if it turns its back which is not obligated to do at all or it closes its eyes. But the damn wolf is moving in its head! its not a picture! but that indeed makes no difference.
Phantasmal Force and other illusions like it are always weird. It relies fully on how the DM runs the NPC and what they let you get away with. Like if its a cage, sure probably pretty easy for the DM, they decide if the creature stuck would try to break free or not and how they would do it. If they try to bend the bars, their hands pass through and they rationalize damn my hands slipped, if they shoulder ram it they are on the other side of it, if they misty step they are out. If it was a force cage and they recognize it as one, they might not even try force as they know it can't be broken only teleported out of or disintegrated.
But if you are like a steel box filled with spikes closes over their head and locks in place. Are they just blind and taking 2d8 a round unless they take the study action and make the save? It would move with them, any attempt to pry it off would fail and they would rationalize it. Seems a bit much for a level 2 spell. No save blindness, they need an action to attempt to save. Or do they see through it no problem and think man there is a crack in the box I can see fine. If they can see through it do the spikes still cause 2d8 a round.
And then the whole while affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real and rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with it. How far does that go. Is there a point where you auto save. Like using the force cage only you see it, and you act trapped your party walks through it no problem you may yell how did you walk through that, and they are like what there is nothing there. Oops you failed that study action I guess you are still trapped. You have to treat it as real. Is there a point where you fail the save but get to say even though I can't see through it, I know its an illusion. Would you be irritated as a PC if something that was obviously an illusion you could not treat as such. And do you hold the enemy monsters/npcs to the same standard.