True Strike with +1 weapon and Bloodwell Vial (or equivalent)

Quote from Agilemind >>

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Quote from AntonSirius >>

Best for... what? It's pretty useless as a ranged attack, or for passing ability checks, or distracting guards, or finding creative solutions to a problem

It can be used just fine with ranged weapons. Though, to really "exploit" it you need to combine it with a martial weapon, a fighting style, a weapon mastery...and other stuff that's awkward to optimally stack on a spellcaster.

Mostly, I think people don't like that, with a good weapon, it kinda outruns the other damage cantrips except at the highest levels, and it gets the option for a really "good" damage type.

 It provides both a melee attack and a ranged attack using your spellcasting modifier both of which deal more damage than any other cantrip until tier 3 play and it is a damage type that is least likely to be resisted by enemies than any other available as a cantrip. [Eldritch blast is obviously an exception here but since it's warlock-only it isn't a relevant comparator]. Hence it is the clear winner for damage dealing cantrip, and every spellcaster than can get it is almost certainly going to take it. Thus the days of a caster using a wand or a staff is gone, and casters are walking around with swords and bows just like any martial. 

Uh huh...

I'm currently in a 2024 campaign with a Wizard who is most definitely not using True Strike. Most players aren't building on pure numbers, and most of the time making a weapon attack just doesn't fit the caster image. You're also ignoring a) that save cantrips can bypass high AC enemies or just exploit a weak save and b) that most other cantrips have some secondary rider alongside their damage.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

 

 

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from kenclary >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Best for... what? It's pretty useless as a ranged attack, or for passing ability checks, or distracting guards, or finding creative solutions to a problem

It can be used just fine with ranged weapons. Though, to really "exploit" it you need to combine it with a martial weapon, a fighting style, a weapon mastery...and other stuff that's awkward to optimally stack on a spellcaster.

Mostly, I think people don't like that, with a good weapon, it kinda outruns the other damage cantrips except at the highest levels, and it gets the option for a really "good" damage type.

 It provides both a melee attack and a ranged attack using your spellcasting modifier both of which deal more damage than any other cantrip until tier 3 play and it is a damage type that is least likely to be resisted by enemies than any other available as a cantrip. [Eldritch blast is obviously an exception here but since it's warlock-only it isn't a relevant comparator]. Hence it is the clear winner for damage dealing cantrip, and every spellcaster than can get it is almost certainly going to take it. Thus the days of a caster using a wand or a staff is gone, and casters are walking around with swords and bows just like any martial. 

 

Uh huh...

 

I'm currently in a 2024 campaign with a Wizard who is most definitely not using True Strike. Most players aren't building on pure numbers, and most of the time making a weapon attack just doesn't fit the caster image. You're also ignoring a) that save cantrips can bypass high AC enemies or just exploit a weak save and b) that most other cantrips have some secondary rider alongside their damage.

 Plus there are sooo many spells that just flat out do more damage than true strike. Why do 2d8 damage to one target when at the same level I can do 8d6 damage to multiple with fireball?  

Quote from kenclary >>

Mostly, I think people don't like that, with a good weapon, it kinda outruns the other damage cantrips except at the highest levels, and it gets the option for a really "good" damage type.

There's a wide, wide chasm between "it's a good damage cantrip if you use it with the right weapon" and "the optimized meta means everyone is playing gishes"

Quote from starlinvf >>

 Plus there are sooo many spells that just flat out do more damage than true strike. Why do 2d8 damage to one target when at the same level I can do 8d6 damage to multiple with fireball?  

 It's not actually as different as you think. At 5th level, True Strike typically deals: 1d8+4+1d6 = 12 damage. A second level damage dealing spell typically does ~3d8 damage = 13.5 damage. Sure 2x a day you could blast with your 3rd level spells but unless you are at some very odd table that only does 2 rounds of combat per adventuring day, True Strike is often your best option once your 3rd level slots are expended.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from kenclary >>

Mostly, I think people don't like that, with a good weapon, it kinda outruns the other damage cantrips except at the highest levels, and it gets the option for a really "good" damage type.

 

There's a wide, wide chasm between "it's a good damage cantrip if you use it with the right weapon" and "the optimized meta means everyone is playing gishes"

 Every optimizer / power gamer at every one of my tables is playing a gish (except for one who played an optimized grappler and rage-quit when 5.5e destroyed his character), about 80% of them use Booming Blade routinely - True Strike is a lot less bad for the game than BB I will fully admit but the original point was the blade cantrips in general which IMO have been bad for the game. Sure there are plenty of players who aren't optimizers / power gamers who play other things, but at lot of them after seeing the power of the optimized gishes then build a similar gish for their next character. 

You're also ignoring a) that save cantrips can bypass high AC enemies or just exploit a weak save and b) that most other cantrips have some secondary rider alongside their damage.

Save cantrips are less likely to deal damage compared to attack cantrips against most enemies. The only one I've seen players use routinely is Mind Sliver because INT saves are the worse for low-mid tier enemies, thus it's the only one with comparable accuracy to attack cantrips. And that's before considerng that attack cantrips can benefit from Advantage which massively increases their hit-rate compared to save cantrips.

The secondary riders for many of them almost never actually make a difference. The only one that routinely gets triggered is Vicious Mockery which is why that cantrip does piddly damage.

Quote from Agilemind >>

Sure there are plenty of players who aren't optimizers / power gamers who play other things

Yes, that was my point

Quote from Agilemind >>

but at lot of them after seeing the power of the optimized gishes then build a similar gish for their next character. 

That has not been my experience

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from starlinvf >>

 Plus there are sooo many spells that just flat out do more damage than true strike. Why do 2d8 damage to one target when at the same level I can do 8d6 damage to multiple with fireball?  

 It's not actually as different as you think. At 5th level, True Strike typically deals: 1d8+4+1d6 = 12 damage. A second level damage dealing spell typically does ~3d8 damage = 13.5 damage. Sure 2x a day you could blast with your 3rd level spells but unless you are at some very odd table that only does 2 rounds of combat per adventuring day, True Strike is often your best option once your 3rd level slots are expended.

And firebolt does 11, without putting you on the front line.

Also, those second-level spells doing ~3d8 are either area effect, or have significant rider effects. And usually are save for half, which ups your average damage over "miss and do nothing".

Even the first-level spells are comparable or have significant side effects. Magic missile averages 10.5, which is better than your 12-damage true strike that misses at least 1/4 of the time.

If you're insistent on only using attack-roll spells because of saving throws, you're better off throwing chromatic orb, guiding bolt, witch bolt, and scorching ray around than immediately relying on weapon cantrips.

Quote from Agilemind >>

 Every optimizer / power gamer at every one of my tables is playing a gish (except for one who played an optimized grappler and rage-quit when 5.5e destroyed his character), about 80% of them use Booming Blade routinely - True Strike is a lot less bad for the game than BB I will fully admit but the original point was the blade cantrips in general which IMO have been bad for the game. Sure there are plenty of players who aren't optimizers / power gamers who play other things, but at lot of them after seeing the power of the optimized gishes then build a similar gish for their next character. 

 Is that really "gishes are head and shoulders the best", or is it "gishes are the most interesting for people who like to optimize"? Seems to me there's very little to optimize in a straight caster. (I'm sure I'm wrong, but I don't want to spend more than about 30 seconds thinking about it.) 

But, either way, somebody who doesn't optimize is going to get overshadowed by the players who are, no matter what the optimizers are doing. If there's a problem, it's not that gishes are the local equilibrium for optimizing.

In most groups, there's nobody doing any such thing, and the class ecosystem is just fine.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from starlinvf >>

 Plus there are sooo many spells that just flat out do more damage than true strike. Why do 2d8 damage to one target when at the same level I can do 8d6 damage to multiple with fireball?  

 It's not actually as different as you think. At 5th level, True Strike typically deals: 1d8+4+1d6 = 12 damage. A second level damage dealing spell typically does ~3d8 damage = 13.5 damage. Sure 2x a day you could blast with your 3rd level spells but unless you are at some very odd table that only does 2 rounds of combat per adventuring day, True Strike is often your best option once your 3rd level slots are expended.

And firebolt does 11, without putting you on the front line.

Also, those second-level spells doing ~3d8 are either area effect, or have significant rider effects. And usually are save for half, which ups your average damage over "miss and do nothing".

Even the first-level spells are comparable or have significant side effects. Magic missile averages 10.5, which is better than your 12-damage true strike that misses at least 1/4 of the time.

If you're insistent on only using attack-roll spells because of saving throws, you're better off throwing chromatic orb, guiding bolt, witch bolt, and scorching ray around than immediately relying on weapon cantrips.

So less damage of a less reliable type. And while the range of fire bolt is greater than the normal range of light crossbows, the long range of the crossbow is far greater, so I'd call it a tie with respect to range. Even though the difference isn't huge, I still think it's a shame that the highest damage cantrip for non-warlocks is a weapon one.

And comparing cantrips to first level spells is a bit pointless, as they are clearly different things.