Questions about Contagion

Contagion feels pretty strong... But I'm having doubts on how to interpret this part:

The target must repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns until it gets three successes or failures.

Does the target repeat the saving throw even if they succeed the initial save?
Does it take the damage every time it fails the save?
Does it get the Poisoned condition after failing save #2 but succeeding save #1?
Does it lose the Poisoned condition after succeeding save #2 but failing save #1?
Does the spell automatically end if they are cured of the Poisoned condition by other means?

At first glance, this spell could definitely have used some better phrasing.

To me (and I'm open to being corrected or having my opinion changed), here is how I would answer your questions:

• Does the target repeat the saving throw even if they succeed the initial save?
  • To me the initial saving throw is for the Necrotic Damage and the Poisoned Condition imparted by the spell. The other saving throws (the three successes or failures) is to determine if the spell ultimately fails or if the target is basically "cursed" for 7 days with the other effects of the spell.
• Does it take the damage every time it fails the save?
  • No, the damage is only on the initial casting. It happens once. This is true of the Poisoned condition granted by the spell as well.
• Does it get the Poisoned condition after failing save #2 but succeeding save #1?
  • No, if it succeeds on the initial saving throw then the target is not Poisoned by this spell.
• Does it lose the Poisoned condition after succeeding save #2 but failing save #1?
  • No, if it fails the initial save, then the target is Poisoned for the duration or until it makes 3 successful saving throws (or some other spell or ability affects the poisoned condition).
• Does the spell automatically end if they are cured of the Poisoned condition by other means?
  • No, the spell would remain in affect but basically have no effect until the target is poisoned again.

I think it would make the most sense if the target is simply not affected after succeeding on the initial saving throw, but that's not how it reads. Other spells like Stinking Cloud will say something like "While the target is poisoned in this way... however Contagion doesn't say that. So it would seem that even if it avoids being poisoned by succeeding on the initial saving throw, if it receives the Poisoned Condition from another source then the other effects (disadvantage on the chosen Saving Throw and the required additional Saving Throw to eliminate the poisoned condition) will activate, either until the target makes 3 successful saving throws or for 7 days following the third failed saving throw.

That seems to be the intent. The main issue is that the phrasing "It repeats the saving throw" makes it sound like it's the initial saving throw that is repeated (along with its consequences). The fact that nothing happens on a single of the subsequent saves (until 3 are accumulated) doesn't help, as you feel tempted to "fill the gap". But in terms of balance, for a 5th level spell, that's indeed probably what they were going for.

The initial save is save or suck.

If target fails they take damage and have poisoned condition.

If target succeeds initial save, no damage, no poisoned condition.

If they fail the initial save, the next saves determine if the poisoned condition lasts a few turns or a few days. Roll saves until you get 3 successes or 3 failures.

So at a minimun, if you fail the initial save, you have the poisoned condition for 3 turns to roll 3 successfull saves 

That's also another thing that's confusing about this spell. It doesn't say you must repeat the save if you fail the first one. It says you repeat it, period. But if you saved initially, it doesn't make any sense because there's nothing left to save against. It's just poorly written, really.

Quote from Natrel >>

That's also another thing that's confusing about this spell. It doesn't say you must repeat the save if you fail the first one. It says you repeat it, period. But if you saved initially, it doesn't make any sense because there's nothing left to save against. It's just poorly written, really.

 

The "repeat until you get 3 sucesses or 3 failures" portion is to determine how long the poisoned condition lasts. If you succeeded the first save, you dont get the poisoned condition, so the follow on saves have no effect.

This is my interpretation of the language, but I agree up front that a potential 33d8 necrotic to a single creature for a level 5 spell is pretty crazy. Especially if you choose CON as the ability to give disadvantage to. However, it's important to note that it is a touch spell and potentially does nothing at all.

Does the target repeat the saving throw even if they succeed the initial save? 
Yes. The spell says to repeat "the" saving throw—the only one it can be referencing is the one from the first paragraph—and the consequences of failing that saving throw are outlined in the first paragraph. The spell lasts 7 days by default and a single success, even on the first save, does not inherently end it. Only 3 successes does that.

Does it take the damage every time it fails the save? 
Yes. The logic is described in the answer above.

Does it get the Poisoned condition after failing save #2 but succeeding save #1? 
Yes. The consequences of failing "the" saving throw are right there. And that saving throw is the only one the second paragraph can be referencing.

Does it lose the Poisoned condition after succeeding save #2 but failing save #1? 
No. The text says nothing about what a success on the saving throw does until you have 3 of them (the spell ends), just what happens on a failure.

Does the spell automatically end if they are cured of the Poisoned condition by other means? 
No. However, if you are cured of the poisoned condition while the spell is active (having failed three times already), then the spell does nothing until you are poisoned again. If you are cured of the poisoned condition while still making saves, then you still make the saves until you have the three successes or failures.

For reference on the power, here are some other Level 5 spells that deal damage:
Bigby's Hand - Potential 5d8 per round (spell attack) for up to 10 rounds using a BA (except the round cast) at 120+ feet away.
Cloudkill - Potential 5d8 per turn (save; success = half) for up to 100 rounds in a 20ft radius AoE.
Cone of Cold - 8d8 (save; success = half) in a 60ft cone AoE.
Conjure Volley - 8d8 (save; success = half) in a 40ft radius cylinder AoE 150 feet away.
Destructive Wave - 10d6 (save; success = half) in a 30ft Emanation AoE.
Flame Strike - 10d6 (save; success = half) in a 10ft radius cylinder AoE 60 feet away.
Steel Wind Strike - 6d10 per target (up to 5 targets, spell attack) 30 ft away.
Synaptic Static - 8d6 (save; success = half) in 20ft radius sphere 120 feet away.

Last note is that Conjure Elemental has very similar language to Contagion ("the Restrained target repeats the save"). It then goes on to say what happens when the Restrained target fails the save and it is different from the initial save. This is decent evidence that the other interpretation here might be correct. That said, there is no language in Contagion as to what happens on a success or failure in the "repeat" paragraph to change the original, only what happens when you've done one or the other three times.

That's an interesting take. It doesn't feel wrong, but it doesn't feel right either. But the biggest potential here is depleting all of a creature's Legendary Resistances with 1 spell, which is pretty wild. Flesh to Stone, which is level 6 and has a similar mechanic of counting failed and successful saves, doesn't do anything if you succeed on the first one. The key difference is that Flesh to Stone only makes you save again if you're Restrained by failing the first save, while Contagion doesn't give any conditions...

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >> 

The "repeat until you get 3 sucesses or 3 failures" portion is to determine how long the poisoned condition lasts. If you succeeded the first save, you dont get the poisoned condition, so the follow on saves have no effect.

 
Well, the thing is that the spell doesn't say that. It only says that the spell in its entirety ends after 3 successes without further details. That's not enough to infer that it's specifically for the Poisoned condition's duration.

"This is my interpretation of the language, but I agree up front that a potential 33d8 necrotic to a single creature for a level 5 spell is pretty crazy. Especially if you choose CON as the ability to give disadvantage to. However, it's important to note that it is a touch spell and potentially does nothing at all"

You think this spell does 11d8 damage every turn until the target makes 3 successful saves???

"The target must repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns until it gets three successes or failures. If the target succeeds on three of these saves, the spell ends on the target. If the target fails three of the saves, the spell lasts for 7 days on it."

If the target gets 3 failures, its going to die because it takes 11d8 dmg per turn for 7 days.

Theres no way a level 5 spell does that.

Thats 45 dmg a turn. That will kill just about anything in a minute unless its immune to poison.

More likely interpretation: "Your touch inflicts a magical contagion. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 11d8 Necrotic damage and have the Poisoned condition. "

The only lingering effect is the Poisoned condition. 

"While Poisoned, the target has Disadvantage on saving throws made with the chosen ability."

Its like the Hex spell screwing up somebodys ability checks for a duration, but this does saving throws at disadvantabe which is extremely powerful. 

This is the point of the lingering effect.

Last para "Whenever the Poisoned target receives an effect that would end the Poisoned condition, the target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or the Poisoned condition doesn’t end on it."

Again pointing to the poisoned condition and disadvantage one one type of saving throw being the lingering condition.

So the spell hits with a save or suck damage/condition combo. Save then nothing happens. Fail then take 11d8 and youre poisoned. Then make saves until you get either 3 successes or 3 failures. If get 3 successes first, the poisoned condition ends and the disadvantage on that saving throw goes away. If get 3 failures first then the poisoned condition could last 7 days along with disadvantage on that one saving throw type.

That alone is massively powerful. Hit someone with a bunch of damage, and they could end up being extremely vulnerable to a chain of saving throw spells after that if you pick the right one and have the right spells.

It also means if the target fails the initial save, then that saving throw will be at disadvantage for at least three turns.