Dimension Door Issue

Hi everyone, we had a game last night and we ran into an issue about dimension door. 

The player wanted to teleport behind a building following the direct guidelines of the spell. 

Examining the location if found that it was behind total cover, therefore he could not go there since he is not familiar with the layout ( first time on location, so it would be a guess ). 

I told him that he needs to have a clear line of sight because unless the spell specifies it ignores total cover the spell cannot target something you cannot see or imagine. 

Afterwards I told him that he can use the dimension to its full distance up to a point that is limited by how much he can see. The player asked if he can then move from that point one more meter to be behind cover, I told him no and repeated the examples above.

My problem with it was since he was never on this location and not familiar what is behind walls, he therefore cannot describe or imagine what he see's, so it would be purely based from the perspective or the player, not the figurine. The player saw it was safe, however the MINI could not even begin to imagine so it would be a gamble and he would receive 4d6 force damage, and the spell fails to teleport you. So to avoid that I suggested an area not directly obscured by line of sight in the same location ( out of danger ).

This discussion went on for a while so we had to stop it and move on playing. 

So what do you think, does it ignore the Spellcasting rules, is it specific over general?

Direct Targeting: A target with total cover cannot be directly targeted by attacks or spells that require a line of sight or direct path
Common Examples: A solid stone wall, a closed heavy door, or being completely hidden behind a large barrier ( This was our example ).

Please share how you would have ruled this specific situation on your table. 

Hi! I'm the player sevidz mention above lol! 

Anyhow, reading from the spell:

You arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, or one you can describe by stating distance and direction, such as “200 feet straight downward” or “upward to the northwest at a 45-degree angle, 300 feet.”

The argument was that I could describe the end position by seeing the corner of the building (the top-left corner of the gray block) and going a few feet behind it.


Sure, I (the mini) don't see what's behind the building and if something were there I would get the 4d6 penalty and the wasted 5th level spell slot. 

My argument was that specific beats general while most spells do need line of sight, dimension door is an exception as I can just say 150ft where my mini is looking and then take a 90 degree turn to the left for 10ft even if I wasn't familiar with the location.

Another case I have is that I could also use it to hypothetically teleport from one side of a closed door to another side of a closed door provided I said enough distance to not teleport into the door and there wasn't something solid taking space -- even if I wasn't ever in the room. Imagine a bank heist type of scenario where I could try to dimension door to the other side of the vault door as I would assume there's at least 1 square of empty space.

A further argument is that if dimension door would require line of sight it would make it mechanically the same as misty step, except for casting time of 1A, more distance and 1 more teleportee alongside me. 

Total cover doesn't block teleportation. The spell Dimension Door let you arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, or one you can describe by stating distance and direction, so to me it should have been able to teleport to the desired location wether it can see it or not and would have consequences if it would arrive in a space occupied by a creature or completely filled by one or more objects.

Quote from sevidz >>

I told him that he needs to have a clear line of sight because unless the spell specifies it ignores total cover the spell cannot target something you cannot see or imagine. 

This is incorrect. dimension door contains language that specifically allows you to ignore total cover

You teleport to a location within range. You arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, OR one you can describe by stating distance and direction, such as “200 feet straight downward” or “300 feet upward to the northwest at a 45-degree angle.”

The location you are describing by direction and distance does not require you to be able to see it -- that's why it says "or", because locations you can see were covered by the first clause

Casting a spell rule prevents you from doing so. 

You need to have a clear line of sight in order to cast it.  This spell just has more ways of using it, not casting it. 
I don't see a way how it can be exempt because it nowhere states it ignores total cover. Also, imagining things you never saw is just guessing. 

I mentioned that the spell would be wasted and he would receive damage, so I provided a better location to avoid that. 

Quote from sevidz >>

Casting a spell rule prevents you from doing so. 

Specific beats general. General casting rules require line of sight. dimension door creates a specific exception. That is, in fact, one of the entire points of the spell

Do you think teleport requires line of sight as well, even if you're teleporting to another continent? What about plane shift?

We cannot ignore rules already defined for total cover to use a spell. 

" A target has total cover in D&D , meaning it cannot be targeted directly by an attack or a spell "

If something is obscured from vision you do not have clear line of sight.

If he wishes to target a location he cannot see, the rule for total cover needs to have a clear reason to bypass it. 

Imagining things, estimating things is at best unclear since he was not familiar with this base, he never entered it before, he has no idea what was behind that wall. 
So he used the players vision to conclude that, the PC on the other hand would not guess a location to save his life. 

Teleport requires familiarity otherwise it has complications. 

Plane shift requires attunement to that plane, so also familiarity.

Quote from sevidz >>

Teleport requires familiarity otherwise it has complications. 

So? By your own logic it doesn't contain specific language about total cover, so shouldn't be exempt from those rules

Are we ignoring the familiarity table on purpose or did you not know it exists?

Familiarity. Here are the meanings of the terms in the table’s Familiarity column:

• “Permanent circle” means a permanent teleportation circle whose sigil sequence you know.
• “Linked object” means you possess an object taken from the desired destination within the last six months, such as a book from a wizard’s library.
• “Very familiar” is a place you have visited often, a place you have carefully studied, or a place you can see when you cast the spell.
• “Seen casually” is a place you have seen more than once but with which you aren’t very familiar.
• “Viewed once or described” is a place you have seen once, possibly using magic, or a place you know through someone else’s description, perhaps from a map.
• “False destination” is a place that doesn’t exist. Perhaps you tried to scry an enemy’s sanctum but instead viewed an illusion, or you are attempting to teleport to a location that no longer exists.

Correct.

All I am doing is honoring the casting a spell rule and cover rules.

That location could not be targeted.

Targeted Spells: If a spell requires you to choose a target (e.g., Hold Person or Magic Missile), a creature behind Total Cover is completely immune

Dimension door targets a location, which means targeting rules apply. 
It needs to see it, which means clear line of sight applies. 
Imagining things requires familiarity. 

All I'm saying.

 ...which means targeting rules apply.

I believe that is a false interpretation based on not understanding the differences of LOS/LOF.  The targeting rules are based on line of fire (LOF).  LOF is not LOS.  Targeting rules are used to assist with hitting a potentially mobile target that is stationary and in LOS but not LOF.  The target is known and probably even seen by the shooter.   

If someone is behind a corner/log/rock etc.  They are in my LOS.  But they are probably not in LOF, which is why there are rules concerning  half/three quarter/full cover.  The door can be behind cover and yet it is still in your LOS. 

The rule appears to allow you to see where the door is going, but you do not need to see the entire square footage it will occupy.

I see your argument, but we are not trying to determine the Kill zone. We are talking about vision for casting a spell. 
Not having a clear line of fire would still not stop you from emptying a clip in a wall. However casting a spell behind total cover is a completely different animal. 

It is not a combat spell, therefore line of fire means very little,  the space the PC was targeting was completely around a corner out his angle.
If he wanted to cast it where he wanted to go, he could have moved, then cast it. 

Vision was the issue. 

Quote from sevidz >>

It needs to see it, which means clear line of sight applies. 

The spell description explicitly says that it does not.

It gives you three options for choosing a destination: a place you can see, a place you can visualize, or a place you can describe by stating distance and direction. Those are all independent options and none of them require the other two. The entire point of including that third option is so that you can use the spell to teleport to places you can't see or visualize; if that weren't allowed, there would be no reason for that text to be included in the spell.

If it's of any interest to you, the Devs have confirmed it a number of times in the past on X;

@armando_doval So you can't Dimension Door behind total cover then?The spell doesn't say you can, and the spell's target is your destination.

@JeremyECrawford The first paragraph of dimension door is a long-winded exception to the general rule.

@armando_doval I believe the reasoning there is that Dimension Door is intended to ignore total cover. I believe the ruling I was thinking of at the time was related to Prismatic Wall's forbiddance on casting spells through it

@JeremyECrawford That's exactly right. Dimension door ignores total cover, like the cover created by a wall of force. The prismatic wall spell is a different animal, messing with spellcasting itself.

I think you're missing something VERY important about this Dimension Door: the caster is the target of the spell, not the destination. Unless you somehow have Total Cover from yourself, you can go anywhere within range. Also, why would the spell have the clause about teleporting into an object if you can't use it to go past cover? Unless a player is choosing to teleport into a wall, that sentence would be completely pointless.

Classic Crawford, stating what he meant, not what he wrote.

What about vision rule?

I do not believe the total cover rules apply here at all. The "target" of a teleportation spell is not the destination. When you cast misty step, the target of the spell is not a place you can see within 30 feet of you. The target of the spell is you, who then teleports 30 feet to a place you can see. Dimension door explicitly states that you do not need to see the destination, which is not the target of the spell, therefore total cover rules do not apply. And you wanted your player to waste a spell slot and take damage because they tried to use a spell as written? 
And remember the teleport spell. If, according to you, the destination of any teleportation spell must not be behind total cover (AKA line of sight) then teleport is useless for long distance travel. That makes very little sense.

Quote from sevidz >>

Are we ignoring the familiarity table on purpose or did you not know it exists?

So, according to your logic, since teleport and plane shift contain an exception to the total cover rule, they work just fine, but since dimension door also contains an exception, it doesn't work?