I completely agree that you would use passive in the case of "not wanting the player to know a roll was taking place". But that is obviously INSTEAD of a roll, not in addition to a roll. Huge mathematical difference (10 or roll keep the highest, instead of 10). You realize that this is like auto-advantage if you give them both right?
So if AND ONLY if the PCs are in the exploration phase of the game, then I will use thier passive perception (flat, disadvantage or advantage depending on travel pace and other environmental factors).
If they are in combat, I make them take the search action if they are looking for hidden enemies. Basically the hider wastes an action to avoid detection, the searcher wastes an action to cancel it out - just like casting a spell/countering a spell. I'm not "calling for a perception" like a save every time someone tries to hide. They just disappear into obscurement, until you find them.
Technically if player A doesn't ask for a perception check you would default to Passive Perception. In those cases where a PC knows that his passive perception is going to be higher than anything he can likely roll, because of feats or a really high attribute, he could just say I never want to actively look for anything, which would then technically use his passive score anyway because he isn't actively looking. Basically using both eliminates the silliness that results from a player who isn't actively keeping watch actually being more perceptive than if he had actively been keeping watch. Personally I think the game would have been better off without passive perception, but if using it, it really does only make sense to only have a player roll for perception when they don't already succeed on their passive check, because if they don't actively do it, they would have succeeded.
Its basically just easier to tell all the PCs to roll so as to prevent the PCs from knowing the true DC of the check, but to include the player in noticing it, who was technically only rolling to not tip off the other players for what the DC is. So technically you shouldn't call for a player to make an active check, if their passive already succeeds.
Ok. If your only objection is the passive perception score as a concept, you can ask the player to roll a Perception check to contest the Stealth check. As DM, it is your right to rule that way.
Really every game of D&D I've ever played has done this. I'm actually not sure if I've ever played a game where passive perception was ever used, beyond it being on our character sheets. Maybe occasionally by the DM in not so important situations.
How I would rule it at my table is that passive perception is always on. If an invisible creature uses stealth to hide, it compares against passive perception of everyone else (with disadvantage on the part of the people looking for the invisible creature, unless they have something that mitigates the invisibility such as a strong sense of smell. Allies would get advantage if they knew the plan of the invisible creature in advance and the creature was following that plan, like "I'm going to go invisible then move around that guy to flank").
If that passive isn't good enough, they can take an active perception to search, again with disadvantage unless they have some sort of mitigating factor.
For reference, here are the actual rules on hiding:
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured
An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.
skizzerz , a question. Do you impose disadvantage on Perception check to find invisible creature because the wording says "For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured"?
skizzerz , a question. Do you impose disadvantage on Perception check to find invisible creature because the wording says "For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured"?
Correct. Heavily obscured is defined in the Vision and Light section says "A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area." While the blinded condition only mentions attack rolls, it seems reasonable to apply that to perception checks to notice a creature in a heavily obscured area as well. Since being heavily obscured is "one of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object", it makes sense to apply some sort of penalty (disadvantage) for trying to see such creatures.
That isn't to say that someone trying to notice an invisible creature will always have disadvantage, as there may be mitigating factors. For example, the creature could have a pungent odor that allows one to get an idea of where it is, or the ground is very soft and the creature leaves visible tracks wherever they move to.
So after a few levels PASSIVE perception is all that a pc needs to worry about, and rolling is not needed. I don't see how passively walking around should be higher than actively looking for traps etc. Honestly I have a player make his rogue just for this bad rule.
Wood elf +1 to wisdom which he put his 15. Thus 16 (bonus +3) proficiency +2 then expertise. This giving first level 17 passive perception with no roll!
So after a few levels PASSIVE perception is all that a pc needs to worry about, and rolling is not needed. I don't see how passively walking around should be higher than actively looking for traps etc. Honestly I have a player make his rogue just for this bad rule.
Wood elf +1 to wisdom which he put his 15. Thus 16 (bonus +3) proficiency +2 then expertise. This giving first level 17 passive perception with no roll!
There are a lot of monsters which have a pretty high Stealth bonus, even at low CR, like the Darkling. These have still high chance to sneak upon the rogue.
Yet (for example) this 1st level character can calmly walk down the real entry to tomb of horrors and not make a roll for the covered pits in a very high level dungeon? You'd think an arch lich would have more skilled people hiding his traps? That is why I feel the passive perception is broken.
I can't say for the tomb of horrors, but if the passive perception applied to traps is for the DM to decide. The rule about passive scores is not strict, but more open to the situation presented.
How often do you make your stealth characters roll when moving?
This quote reads to me that the player is hiding and remaining still until discovered. Like hide and seek lol
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
So after a few levels PASSIVE perception is all that a pc needs to worry about, and rolling is not needed. I don't see how passively walking around should be higher than actively looking for traps etc. Honestly I have a player make his rogue just for this bad rule.
Wood elf +1 to wisdom which he put his 15. Thus 16 (bonus +3) proficiency +2 then expertise. This giving first level 17 passive perception with no roll!
I mean, he did sink all his stats and his expertise class feature into doing this, that doesn't sound bad to me- he should be picking up on (almost) everything, all DC 15's anyway- he could take the observant feat at level 4 as well to arrive at 22 passive perception. If he wants to be really good at one thing, why not let him be? He based his character around noticing everything.
So after a few levels PASSIVE perception is all that a pc needs to worry about, and rolling is not needed. I don't see how passively walking around should be higher than actively looking for traps etc. Honestly I have a player make his rogue just for this bad rule.
Wood elf +1 to wisdom which he put his 15. Thus 16 (bonus +3) proficiency +2 then expertise. This giving first level 17 passive perception with no roll!
I mean, he did sink all his stats and his expertise class feature into doing this, that doesn't sound bad to me- he should be picking up on (almost) everything, all DC 15's anyway- he could take the observant feat at level 4 as well to arrive at 22 passive perception. If he wants to be really good at one thing, why not let him be? He based his character around noticing everything.
I think I'm seeing things.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
How often do you make your stealth characters roll when moving?
This quote reads to me that the player is hiding and remaining still until discovered. Like hide and seek lol
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
The characters can be moving stealthily while traveling at a slow pace, so you're not necessarily staying put just because you made a Stealth check. The rule is pretty straightforward: you roll when you start traveling stealthily or hiding, and you keep that number until you stop traveling, hiding, or are discovered.
Re: Passive perception being "broken", people tend to forget you take a -5 penalty to sight-based Perception checks in dim light. It's a lot harder to spot tripwires, pressure plates, scorch marks. It's not just traps, you might accidentally overlook an important item or clue. You can avoid that by having a light source, but that turns you into a giant target for everything else that's lurking in the darkness.
The marching order is also a factor. If the character with the best perception is the squishy wizard and you're marching in single file, the wizard's going to have to be at the front to spot traps. That puts them at risk if a trap goes off or the party is surprised in combat. Looking out for danger also means that character's not able to map out the dungeon or forage for food.
Also, traps where the only "challenge" is noticing them are inherently boring. There's no decision to make; either the player wins automatically by having a high enough score, or they get sucker punched. Those traps would be boring whether you take the passive score or roll actively, and I'd argue if you allow players to make an active roll they'll have an even higher chance of finding it since they have 3-5 chances to roll high.
A good trap will involve a decision. Maybe you see the trap but it's not obvious how to disarm it. Maybe it can be disarmed, but there's a risk it'll go off if you mess up your ability check. Maybe you have a time limit to get through the dungeon, and there's a fast but risky way to disarm the trap and a slow but safe way to disarm it. Maybe you're forced into combat as soon as you enter the room that contains the trap, and now you have to decide if it's worth taking the Rogue out of the fight for 2-3 turns while they disarm it.
Technically if you are searching you are using Investigation, not perception. Perception is to see if you notice something, investigation is if you are searching for something. The line may blur if you are searching for something only by looking.
It would seem the game was written for passive perception to always apply. RAW, you don't have to look for traps if your passive perception would notice them. You detect a hidden creature always if your passive perception would notice it. If a creature moves, and is invisible you could still hear it (granted your passive perception should take a penalty, this could be a case where the game got off track with simplifying down to advantage and disadvantage). Anyway the game seems to be clearly written to assume that if passive perception is higher than active perception, you go with passive.
For those saying this shouldn't be part of the game, well technically 5th edition did have a long playtest period, so hopefully that is when you voiced your thoughts on active vs passive perception. The general idea of having passive perception has always been to give DMs a perception number without needing to ask the PCs to roll for perception. In every game I've ever played in, usually players end up rolling for perception any way, and you end up with these awkward moments of passive perception being higher than what you roll.
Technically, if you are using investigation for searching, shouldn't you also be using passive investigation depending on the circumstances? Passive refers to the situation where the PLAYER is passive by not rolling dice, the character may well be doing something very active but the situation can be resolved with a passive check.
For example, if a player is searching a room looking for something (and they describe looking in the area which is relevant to the search) then if their passive investigation is 14 and the DC was 13 then they should succeed without a die roll being made in my opinion. This assumes that there are no circumstances that would prevent the player from investigating as long as they like and the average result of their investigation skill would be appropriate. On the other hand, investigating while a guard is approaching might well require a die roll since the average might not be applicable.
In my opinion, there are many checks that could be resolved using passive check (where no dice are rolled) vs an active one (where dice are rolled). The entire section on passive checks is skill agnostic.
In the case of perception, it isn't a matter of it "always being on" ... it is a matter of the character being alert and paying attention for something out of the ordinary, in which case the passive perception check can (and based on the podcast should) be made. If the character is distracted or focusing their attention on something else (see the activities while traveling rules as an example) then they might have to make an active check since they are not paying attention. Trap examples in LMoP work exactly this way (p7).
The passive check in combat to prevent hiding is because they characters in combat are always assumed to be paying attention. However, if someone is already hidden or succeeds in a hide check then the character may need to devote an action just to paying even closer attention in order to possibly find them. This allows a die roll which typically would have about a 50% chance of being higher than their passive value.
At least that is my take on things :) ... passive checks can apply to every skill (based on the rules), and in my opinion passive checks should be applied when appropriate since it tends to avoid situations like ...
... the wizard making a DC13 arcana check to find some information in a book on magic and rolling a 2 while the barbarian with 8 int rolls a 15. If the wizards passive arcana was greater than 13 I would just let the wizard succeed and relay the information found to that character since honestly it makes more sense for a task that is within the average ability of the wizard to complete should be best done by the wizard. Higher DC tasks would obviously require a roll.
... the barbarian making a DC 14 athletics(strength) check to open a stuck door and rolling a 7 while the wizard rolls a 16. If the barbarian's passive athletics score was greater than 14 then I would just have him push on the door perhaps with the help of someone and then succeed without a roll. On the other hand, if the wizard wanted to try to force the door themselves, then they would have to roll for it since the DC was above their passive athletics score.
... the rogure trying to open a DC12 lock ... as long as the thief has time and there are no consequences then he should succeed in opening the lock as long as the DC is less than the character's passive thieves tools skill (proficiency + dex mod). On the other hand, if the room behind the door has occupants, or the rogue is involved in a fight and trying to open a route to retreat, or any number of other circumstances then some sort of roll will likely be required. However, in the case where the room is occupied, the rogue might be making a stealth check vs the passive perception of the room's occupant to see if they unlock the door quietly enough (rather than rolling to unlock the door) ... but you don't have to tell the player what they are rolling for ... :)
Anyway, in my opinion, there are a lot of checks which can be done passively, and I think the comments on perception are not an exception to the rules but rather a suggestion on how all passive checks could be played.
Yet (for example) this 1st level character can calmly walk down the real entry to tomb of horrors and not make a roll for the covered pits in a very high level dungeon? You'd think an arch lich would have more skilled people hiding his traps? That is why I feel the passive perception is broken.
The pit traps at the beginning of tomb of horrors are DC15 perception check. They are covered by wooden trap doors designed to look like the floor. (they can even be triggered just by tapping on the floor with a DC10 strength check). I don't see any problem with a first level character being able to see them since they are simply designed to be seen by at least some people in the party. They won't be seen by a character without the perception skill. However, by tier 4, anyone proficient in perception will have at least a +6.
A level 11 rogue, with expertise in perception has a +8 for proficiency and a minimum 10 from reliable talent giving a minimum 18 even on active checks. (A level 17 rogue proficient in perception has a minimum 16 ... and if you are entering the Tomb of Horrors without a rogue .. you are probably doomed anyway :) ). Just because it is a high level dungeon doesn't mean the traps are actually supposed to catch anyone ... it is just to make them cautious. Traps that the designer wants the characters to deal with are things like the ceiling trap in the first tunnel where you can easily note the unstable stone work if you clear the webs but can't disable the trap. Or the pressure plates with the sliding block that are easy to see (again DC15) but you won't know if they have been disabled until after someone steps on them.
On the other hand, if for some reason the characters are forced to run up a corridor with traps then they would have roll to see them and even if they do see them they will have to think fast in terms what to do about the traps since they are probably running for a reason :)
So no :) ... in my opinion passive perception isn't broken and the traps in tomb of horrors aren't a good example. Keep in mind the situational suggestions in the PHB. It is quite possible that the high perception character at the front may spot the traps but the lower perception character at the back may miss the hidden creatures following the party. However, even if the characters do see both the traps and the ambush ... they may find themselves caught between running into a trap or fighting with no where to retreat. The abilities of the party simply shape how the story evolves. Different party, same encounter, might play out VERY differently and that is totally ok :)
Finally, the bounded accuracy design of 5e means that numbers start off reasonably large. A first level character with 14 wisdom and proficiency in perception has a +4 and a passive of 14 while a level 20 with 14 wisdom and proficiency has a +8 and a passive of 18. A passive check against a DC15 is failed by the level 1 and passed by the level 20 but neither succeeds at a DC20 passive check. The change in proficiency due to level is always limited to +4 (+2 -> +6). This applies to attack rolls, saving throws and skills. As a result it is entirely unsurprising that a level 1 character with maxed out perception could see a DC15 trap. At the other limit, a level 17+ with 20 wisdom who is proficient in perception will max out at a 21 passive perception. The only ones who will be higher than this will be a rogue or bard with expertise in perception and a character with the observant feat (though these are less likely to have maxed out wisdom). The highest values will be with a rogue or bard with observant and expertise but in this case the character has expended significant resources (giving up an ASI or other feat) in order to create a character that has an excellent chance to see things and figuring things out ... at the long term cost of being somewhat less combat effective.
So after a few levels PASSIVE perception is all that a pc needs to worry about, and rolling is not needed. I don't see how passively walking around should be higher than actively looking for traps etc. Honestly I have a player make his rogue just for this bad rule.
Wood elf +1 to wisdom which he put his 15. Thus 16 (bonus +3) proficiency +2 then expertise. This giving first level 17 passive perception with no roll!
I have never interpreted perception as a way to find a trap, it can warn you that something is off in the area causing you to Investigate to try and find it. While they could sink both their expertise into these two skills that is a significant dedication to one aspect of adventuring that they should be good enough for that. I see Sherlock Holmes as being an example of a character exactly like this. He notices a lot and his investigation ability allows him to connect the dots between clues to find the source.
I have never interpreted perception as a way to find a trap, it can warn you that something is off in the area causing you to Investigate to try and find it.
The rules explicitly say Perception is used to find traps.
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check. Such a check can be used to find hidden details or other information and clues that you might otherwise overlook.
Usually, some element of a trap is visible to careful inspection. Characters might notice an uneven flagstone that conceals a pressure plate, spot the gleam of light off a trip wire, notice small holes in the walls from which jets of flame will erupt, or otherwise detect something that points to a trap's presence.
A trap's description specifies the checks and DCs needed to detect it, disable it, or both. A character actively looking for a trap can attempt a Wisdom (Perception) check against the trap's DC. You can also compare the DC to detect the trap with each character's passive Wisdom (Perception) score to determine whether anyone in the party notices the trap in passing. If the adventurers detect a trap before triggering it, they might be able to disarm it, either permanently or long enough to move past it. You might call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check for a character to deduce what needs to be done, followed by a Dexterity check using thieves' tools to perform the necessary sabotage.
As you said, Investigation can help you deduce what it does or how to disable it, but you have to know it's there first to avoid it or do anything about it.
So after a few levels PASSIVE perception is all that a pc needs to worry about, and rolling is not needed. I don't see how passively walking around should be higher than actively looking for traps etc. Honestly I have a player make his rogue just for this bad rule.
Wood elf +1 to wisdom which he put his 15. Thus 16 (bonus +3) proficiency +2 then expertise. This giving first level 17 passive perception with no roll!
I just wanted to correct a popular misimpression of what "passive" and "active" check mean in D&D 5e. These have NOTHING to do with the character's actions at all. "Passive" and "Active" refer to the PLAYERS actions. A passive check occurs when the player does NOT roll dice ... the player is passive ... and their average skill is used to evaluate a check. An active check occurs when the player is required to roll dice ... the player is ACTIVE.
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There are lots of examples in the modules and rule books in which a passive check is used only when the character is actively searching and similarly an active check is required if the character isn't paying attention.
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The traveling and exploration rules indicate that a passive check isn't used if the character is doing something other than watching while traveling (e.g. mapping, searching for food or drink etc).
NOTICING THREATS (PHB p182) Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat.
OTHER ACTIVITIES (PHB p183) Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats.
A passive check is used for character's who are actively watching for danger while those who are doing something else do not contribute to the passive check.
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Lost mine of phandelver (pg 7)
If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap.
A passive check is used if the character's are actively searching while an active check is required if the character's are not searching.
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EDIT: from a DM persepective ... if the character is actively searching or proceeding carefully and they have the time to do so then I would use their passive skills to evaluate the outcome. On the other hand, if they are strolling along chatting to other party members, or focused on another activity, then I still might use the passive value (if I didn't want to give something away) or I might require an active check or simply have the character miss seeing whatever was going on depending on the circumstances. The use of passive skills depends on the character actions and the time available. If there is a reasonable amount of time then almost every skill check can be resolved passively since the "passive" value represents the average outcome for that character which WILL occur in a short period of time. If time is limited or other circumstances prevent the character from trying more than once then an active check requiring a player roll might be more appropriate. However, in BOTH cases the character is actively doing something. The choice of active or passive check (when the player does or does not roll dice) depends on the time available and the circumstances.
From an in game perspective, a player with good perception or investigation or insight might never know that a task or some information that they learn actually had a DC associated with it. The DM just narrates the storyline in such a way that the character involved receives the information without having to roll dice. On the other hand, a character with a lower passive skill might miss the skill check outright or be requested to roll an active check.
Player's do not determine when a check is required or called for, this is still true, and maybe even more so if using passive checks. Need to listen to the whole podcast, JC specifically says something along the lines of passive perception is a DM tool only, it is not an autosuccess, but rather a floor.
Like any check, there has to be logical consistency with it's application. You still have to be looking for something that is hidden in order to find it (unless you essentially stumble over it). It isn't a magic psychic power, you still need to attempt to do the thing...to do the thing.
In combat, searching requires an action. If there is no chance of failure due to your passive, the DM can simply skip the roll to speed play. If there is a chance of failure, passive provides a floor. Either way, you still need to use your action.
Also remember, this floor can change situationally due to advantage/disadvantage by + or - 5. i.e DC is 15, passive perception is 15. But player has disadvantage. Therefore their passive becomes 10, whic in turn means there IS a chance of failure. Player rolls with disadvantage, for a total of 13. This would constitute a failed roll, as their passive floor is 10 due to disadvantage, and the DC is 15.
If you still don't like it, that's cool, as it is first and foremost intended to be a DM tool. Might want to give players a heads up for those few things that interact with it more directly. I think off hand those abilities that do are only optional fests.
Technically if you are searching you are using Investigation, not perception. Perception is to see if you notice something, investigation is if you are searching for something. The line may blur if you are searching for something only by looking.
This is incorrect. For example, it very clearly says in the Player's Basic Rules, under "Using Ability Scores > Ability Checks > Perception"
FINDING A HIDDEN OBJECT When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check. Such a check can be used to find hidden details or other information and clues that you might otherwise overlook.
In most cases, you need to describe where you are looking in order for the DM to determine your chance of success. For example, a key is hidden beneath a set of folded clothes in the top drawer of a bureau. If you tell the DM that you pace around the room, looking at the walls and furniture for clues, you have no chance of finding the key, regardless of your Wisdom (Perception) check result. You would have to specify that you were opening the drawers or searching the bureau in order to have any chance of success.
So the basic rules say Perception is used to search for hidden objects, doors, or traps. Searching for something is almost always Perception based. Investigation is used to deduce something from clues you've found (perhaps through perception), solve a puzzle and figure something out, etc. Perception is used to spot, notice, or find something through searching.
How I would rule it at my table is that passive perception is always on. If an invisible creature uses stealth to hide, it compares against passive perception of everyone else (with disadvantage on the part of the people looking for the invisible creature, unless they have something that mitigates the invisibility such as a strong sense of smell. Allies would get advantage if they knew the plan of the invisible creature in advance and the creature was following that plan, like "I'm going to go invisible then move around that guy to flank").
If that passive isn't good enough, they can take an active perception to search, again with disadvantage unless they have some sort of mitigating factor.
For reference, here are the actual rules on hiding:
And invisible:
skizzerz , a question. Do you impose disadvantage on Perception check to find invisible creature because the wording says "For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured"?
So after a few levels PASSIVE perception is all that a pc needs to worry about, and rolling is not needed. I don't see how passively walking around should be higher than actively looking for traps etc. Honestly I have a player make his rogue just for this bad rule.
Wood elf +1 to wisdom which he put his 15. Thus 16 (bonus +3) proficiency +2 then expertise. This giving first level 17 passive perception with no roll!
Yet (for example) this 1st level character can calmly walk down the real entry to tomb of horrors and not make a roll for the covered pits in a very high level dungeon? You'd think an arch lich would have more skilled people hiding his traps? That is why I feel the passive perception is broken.
I can't say for the tomb of horrors, but if the passive perception applied to traps is for the DM to decide. The rule about passive scores is not strict, but more open to the situation presented.
How often do you make your stealth characters roll when moving?
This quote reads to me that the player is hiding and remaining still until discovered. Like hide and seek lol
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Re: Passive perception being "broken", people tend to forget you take a -5 penalty to sight-based Perception checks in dim light. It's a lot harder to spot tripwires, pressure plates, scorch marks. It's not just traps, you might accidentally overlook an important item or clue. You can avoid that by having a light source, but that turns you into a giant target for everything else that's lurking in the darkness.
The marching order is also a factor. If the character with the best perception is the squishy wizard and you're marching in single file, the wizard's going to have to be at the front to spot traps. That puts them at risk if a trap goes off or the party is surprised in combat. Looking out for danger also means that character's not able to map out the dungeon or forage for food.
Also, traps where the only "challenge" is noticing them are inherently boring. There's no decision to make; either the player wins automatically by having a high enough score, or they get sucker punched. Those traps would be boring whether you take the passive score or roll actively, and I'd argue if you allow players to make an active roll they'll have an even higher chance of finding it since they have 3-5 chances to roll high.
A good trap will involve a decision. Maybe you see the trap but it's not obvious how to disarm it. Maybe it can be disarmed, but there's a risk it'll go off if you mess up your ability check. Maybe you have a time limit to get through the dungeon, and there's a fast but risky way to disarm the trap and a slow but safe way to disarm it. Maybe you're forced into combat as soon as you enter the room that contains the trap, and now you have to decide if it's worth taking the Rogue out of the fight for 2-3 turns while they disarm it.
I know this is an older thread but there were a couple of comments made about traps and perception that I wanted to comment on.
As you said, Investigation can help you deduce what it does or how to disable it, but you have to know it's there first to avoid it or do anything about it.
Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat.
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats.
Player's do not determine when a check is required or called for, this is still true, and maybe even more so if using passive checks. Need to listen to the whole podcast, JC specifically says something along the lines of passive perception is a DM tool only, it is not an autosuccess, but rather a floor.
Like any check, there has to be logical consistency with it's application. You still have to be looking for something that is hidden in order to find it (unless you essentially stumble over it). It isn't a magic psychic power, you still need to attempt to do the thing...to do the thing.
In combat, searching requires an action. If there is no chance of failure due to your passive, the DM can simply skip the roll to speed play. If there is a chance of failure, passive provides a floor. Either way, you still need to use your action.
Also remember, this floor can change situationally due to advantage/disadvantage by + or - 5. i.e DC is 15, passive perception is 15. But player has disadvantage. Therefore their passive becomes 10, whic in turn means there IS a chance of failure. Player rolls with disadvantage, for a total of 13. This would constitute a failed roll, as their passive floor is 10 due to disadvantage, and the DC is 15.
If you still don't like it, that's cool, as it is first and foremost intended to be a DM tool. Might want to give players a heads up for those few things that interact with it more directly. I think off hand those abilities that do are only optional fests.
This is incorrect. For example, it very clearly says in the Player's Basic Rules, under "Using Ability Scores > Ability Checks > Perception"
So the basic rules say Perception is used to search for hidden objects, doors, or traps. Searching for something is almost always Perception based. Investigation is used to deduce something from clues you've found (perhaps through perception), solve a puzzle and figure something out, etc. Perception is used to spot, notice, or find something through searching.