It is possible to create a tunnel using Mold Earth?
There's a campment that is really guarded on the entrances but it can be easly accessed via a tunnel, If the sorcerer uses Mold Earth can the walls and ceiling of the tunnel resist collapsing or since is loose earth it will fall?
Here's a sideview of what im trying to achieve:
|||||| <-- Wall ----------- ------------------------- ----------- <--- Ground | X | | X |
I'd say no. Loose earth isn't going to hold up at all, just try it in some soil, it isn't structurally sound. If you want to dig under the wall, reinforcing the tunnel walls and ceiling is vital. If you have a spell that can force wood or root growth, or a spell to create stone spikes and some rope then it could be possible. Otherwise, just use wooden supports, like a real miner.
I'd say no. Loose earth isn't going to hold up at all, just try it in some soil, it isn't structurally sound. If you want to dig under the wall, reinforcing the tunnel walls and ceiling is vital. If you have a spell that can force wood or root growth, or a spell to create stone spikes and some rope then it could be possible. Otherwise, just use wooden supports, like a real miner.
Thank you!, one of my party members is a carpenter Im going to put that skill in use :)
I like the creativity, but I think the loose earth thing rules this out as others have mentioned, plus there's wording in this spell that would make this tricky. And that's: 'deposit it up to 5 feet away.'
So as you're tunnelling, in my mind, the dirt you'd be excavating would be deposited 5 feet behind you. Effectively meaning you'd either have to spend a lot of time taking 5ft cubes of loose dirt all the way back along the tunnel to the entrance, or travel through a little pocket of excavated earth. Which as it's loose dirt, would essentially just mean you're digging your own grave.
It is possible to create a tunnel using Mold Earth?
There's a campment that is really guarded on the entrances but it can be easly accessed via a tunnel, If the sorcerer uses Mold Earth can the walls and ceiling of the tunnel resist collapsing or since is loose earth it will fall?
Here's a sideview of what im trying to achieve:
|||||| <-- Wall ----------- ------------------------- ----------- <--- Ground | X | | X |
| X X X X X X X X | <-- Tunnel
Yes...
HOWEVER, you can only use it up to 30 feet out. you can only move the earth 5 feet at a time, and it has to be loose dirt. So, you'd need to take a shovel, and loosen up all the dirt anyways. So in your intended purpose to "sap" the wall basically to make it collapse, its not much faster than doing it without mold earth. its actually slower. However, the bright side, is you can do that from a hidden place.
BUT, I'll be honest, as your DM, You would be doing this as a suicide mission. the collapse of the wall, is 1. going to collapse your tunnel, 2. trap you in earth. 3. have heavy portions of the wall lying atop you as well. 4. you now need to make con saves for how much dirt and dust and etc you breathe in, as well as, for how much oxygen you lost as a result, and how long you can hold your breath after, etc. Then, you have that much time, to find a way to get free, which won't be easy, with the dirt having pinned your arms and such.
I would allow it completely. but it's a suicide mission. Just like how in medieval warfare, the sappers that sapped walls, were the equivalent of WWII Kamikazee pilots, and modern day Suicide bombers.
Sorry, read it wrong, you just want to tunnel through. and not collapse the wall.
Still doable, still the problem of dirt moving 5 feet deposits away at a time, still the problem of time, and oxygen holding your breath etc, and in the darkness getting lost (unless you have keen mind and therefore always know which way is north). So you'd have ability checks to pass in terms of how fast you can move. if you're going the right direction, how well you can hold your breath/use your oxygen, etc.
Can you do it, YES. Is it the most effective way, NO, can it be cool as hell. yes.
Sorry, read it wrong, you just want to tunnel through. and not collapse the wall.
Still doable, still the problem of dirt moving 5 feet deposits away at a time, still the problem of time, and oxygen holding your breath etc, and in the darkness getting lost (unless you have keen mind and therefore always know which way is north). So you'd have ability checks to pass in terms of how fast you can move. if you're going the right direction, how well you can hold your breath/use your oxygen, etc.
Can you do it, YES. Is it the most effective way, NO, can it be cool as hell. yes.
I'm now more excited about trying to use it now! :D
The cantrip can't be expected to get it done alone. Bring the carpenter with wood, bring another party member with a shovel, and another using some other magic to conceal or aid the efforts somehow, while you use your earth magic to speed things along. Maybe the DM will be impressed with your imaginative efforts, maybe you will pass the stealth and other skill rolls to get this done without detection or injury, and maybe it will be a triumphant victory that you remember for years (or you could all die in a muddy pit). But no, that cantrip is not expected to be that powerful on its own.
You would have to tunnel in a pocket. You can only have 2 cubes active at a time so you move to forward cube, collapse the rear cube, then make a forward cube and so on. I would probably allow it as you're pretty much going solo, there is no space for another person.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Apparently it's meant to mean earth/dirt not stone. I personally feel they should have described the spell better, because I've seen this discussion come up as to tons of beliefs on what should limit the spell. The real limit of the spell if the 5' movement of the earth, so you can't move it very far, so it takes a lot of time.
use shape water make a 5ft ice drill and just bore your way through. you can probably use shape water to loosen hard soil by tuning it to mud all you need is a cantrip that can produce a liquids.
And I would have skill checks to not have the tunnel collapse at various stages, and skill checks for others to reinforce it and dex checks to avoid damaging said supports.
As a DM i would also have an idea of other possible hazzards. Too close to a well? Tunnel is flooded, but hdy climb out the well. Wall has a base extending deeper than five feet in places. The fort has hired sappers to counter sappinng. You tunnel into the latrine....etc. let the players think and fail and plan try again and succeed.
I love the idea because i like movies like the Great Escape, or Stalag 17. It clearly can be done without magic and with limited tools and enough time. Magic might speed it up, but not solve other challenges.
Finally, just like in minecraft...going straight down creats problems.
What they really don't want you doing is circumventing castle walls (or even simple house walls) or walls of stone with a cantrip.
I don't think that's the point you don't want to be circumventing.
Literally people have circumvented castle and prison walls with shovels for hundreds of years. Mold Earth replaces a shovel and time with a cantrip's slot and an Action. It still takes a lot of time because you can only move the earth 5' and so the spell needs to be used over and over again.
What they really don't want you doing is circumventing castle walls (or even simple house walls) or walls of stone with a cantrip.
I don't think that's the point you don't want to be circumventing.
Literally people have circumvented castle and prison walls with shovels for hundreds of years. Mold Earth replaces a shovel and time with a cantrip's slot and an Action. It still takes a lot of time because you can only move the earth 5' and so the spell needs to be used over and over again.
Sorry, what I meant was, going directly INTO a castle wall or directly THROUGH a wall of stone. Under and around is fair game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I would say it is possible since you instantaneously excavate and move the loose dirt or stone up to 5'. By instantaneously moving the loose dirt or stone into adjacent loose dirt or stone I would think that it would instantaneously compact this space into a more sturdy substrate that is now no longer considered loose. Moving it in this way would reinforce those 5' cubed spaces and create a sturdy enough tunnel in my opinion since the spell does not say where the loose dirt or stone is instantaneously deposited only that it be within 5' of where it is moved from.
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It is possible to create a tunnel using Mold Earth?
There's a campment that is really guarded on the entrances but it can be easly accessed via a tunnel, If the sorcerer uses Mold Earth can the walls and ceiling of the tunnel resist collapsing or since is loose earth it will fall?
Here's a sideview of what im trying to achieve:
|||||| <-- Wall
----------- ------------------------- ----------- <--- Ground
| X | | X |
| X X X X X X X X | <-- Tunnel
I'd say no. Loose earth isn't going to hold up at all, just try it in some soil, it isn't structurally sound. If you want to dig under the wall, reinforcing the tunnel walls and ceiling is vital. If you have a spell that can force wood or root growth, or a spell to create stone spikes and some rope then it could be possible. Otherwise, just use wooden supports, like a real miner.
Thank you!, one of my party members is a carpenter Im going to put that skill in use :)
Wouldn't it be much easier to use the spell to build up dirt next to the wall and climb over it?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It will get the group past the wall, but if the camp is well guarded then they don't want to be spotted in the process of getting in.
I like the creativity, but I think the loose earth thing rules this out as others have mentioned, plus there's wording in this spell that would make this tricky. And that's: 'deposit it up to 5 feet away.'
So as you're tunnelling, in my mind, the dirt you'd be excavating would be deposited 5 feet behind you. Effectively meaning you'd either have to spend a lot of time taking 5ft cubes of loose dirt all the way back along the tunnel to the entrance, or travel through a little pocket of excavated earth. Which as it's loose dirt, would essentially just mean you're digging your own grave.
Wow, I haven't thought about that, It sounds awesome!
Yes...
HOWEVER,
you can only use it up to 30 feet out. you can only move the earth 5 feet at a time, and it has to be loose dirt. So, you'd need to take a shovel, and loosen up all the dirt anyways. So in your intended purpose to "sap" the wall basically to make it collapse, its not much faster than doing it without mold earth. its actually slower. However, the bright side, is you can do that from a hidden place.
BUT, I'll be honest, as your DM, You would be doing this as a suicide mission. the collapse of the wall, is 1. going to collapse your tunnel, 2. trap you in earth. 3. have heavy portions of the wall lying atop you as well. 4. you now need to make con saves for how much dirt and dust and etc you breathe in, as well as, for how much oxygen you lost as a result, and how long you can hold your breath after, etc. Then, you have that much time, to find a way to get free, which won't be easy, with the dirt having pinned your arms and such.
I would allow it completely. but it's a suicide mission. Just like how in medieval warfare, the sappers that sapped walls, were the equivalent of WWII Kamikazee pilots, and modern day Suicide bombers.
Blank
Sorry, read it wrong, you just want to tunnel through. and not collapse the wall.
Still doable, still the problem of dirt moving 5 feet deposits away at a time, still the problem of time, and oxygen holding your breath etc, and in the darkness getting lost (unless you have keen mind and therefore always know which way is north). So you'd have ability checks to pass in terms of how fast you can move. if you're going the right direction, how well you can hold your breath/use your oxygen, etc.
Can you do it, YES. Is it the most effective way, NO, can it be cool as hell. yes.
Blank
I'm now more excited about trying to use it now! :D
The cantrip can't be expected to get it done alone. Bring the carpenter with wood, bring another party member with a shovel, and another using some other magic to conceal or aid the efforts somehow, while you use your earth magic to speed things along. Maybe the DM will be impressed with your imaginative efforts, maybe you will pass the stealth and other skill rolls to get this done without detection or injury, and maybe it will be a triumphant victory that you remember for years (or you could all die in a muddy pit). But no, that cantrip is not expected to be that powerful on its own.
You would have to tunnel in a pocket. You can only have 2 cubes active at a time so you move to forward cube, collapse the rear cube, then make a forward cube and so on. I would probably allow it as you're pretty much going solo, there is no space for another person.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
bag of holding the dirt or somthing similar to that effect
Mold Earth has a Sage Advice where they clarified "loose earth": https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/18/whats-loose-earth-for-the-mold-earth-cantrip/
Apparently it's meant to mean earth/dirt not stone. I personally feel they should have described the spell better, because I've seen this discussion come up as to tons of beliefs on what should limit the spell. The real limit of the spell if the 5' movement of the earth, so you can't move it very far, so it takes a lot of time.
use shape water make a 5ft ice drill and just bore your way through. you can probably use shape water to loosen hard soil by tuning it to mud all you need is a cantrip that can produce a liquids.
As a fan of the cantrip, I'd say yes.
And I would have skill checks to not have the tunnel collapse at various stages, and skill checks for others to reinforce it and dex checks to avoid damaging said supports.
As a DM i would also have an idea of other possible hazzards. Too close to a well? Tunnel is flooded, but hdy climb out the well. Wall has a base extending deeper than five feet in places. The fort has hired sappers to counter sappinng. You tunnel into the latrine....etc. let the players think and fail and plan try again and succeed.
I love the idea because i like movies like the Great Escape, or Stalag 17. It clearly can be done without magic and with limited tools and enough time. Magic might speed it up, but not solve other challenges.
Finally, just like in minecraft...going straight down creats problems.
GLHF
What they really don't want you doing is circumventing castle walls (or even simple house walls) or walls of stone with a cantrip.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I don't think that's the point you don't want to be circumventing.
Literally people have circumvented castle and prison walls with shovels for hundreds of years.
Mold Earth replaces a shovel and time with a cantrip's slot and an Action. It still takes a lot of time because you can only move the earth 5' and so the spell needs to be used over and over again.
Sorry, what I meant was, going directly INTO a castle wall or directly THROUGH a wall of stone. Under and around is fair game.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I would say it is possible since you instantaneously excavate and move the loose dirt or stone up to 5'. By instantaneously moving the loose dirt or stone into adjacent loose dirt or stone I would think that it would instantaneously compact this space into a more sturdy substrate that is now no longer considered loose. Moving it in this way would reinforce those 5' cubed spaces and create a sturdy enough tunnel in my opinion since the spell does not say where the loose dirt or stone is instantaneously deposited only that it be within 5' of where it is moved from.