I had a gamee today and went through a fight situation that raised a light complain about the way I handled it.
Here is the situation (Link of the map :https://ibb.co/VWc66k9 - the scale is not exactly right as the PCs/NPCs dots should be bigger)
PCs are in the cavern, exploring (green in the linked picture). They are aware that the ennemis (in red on the map) are somewhere nevertheless they don't know how many they are and where they are.
As they made quite a lot of noise previously, the NPCs are very well aware of their presence and regroup to protect their priest (blue in the map) in his chamber and are waiting for the PCs to arrive.
The PCs are cautious and move slowly, sending the halfing rogue first (PC 1). Both curtains you can see on the map are opened.
The rogue move slowly behind the table to the corner and take a look to the corridor. Unfortunately, his stealth check is less than the NPCs perception and at the moment, he takes the look, I ask him to roll initiative to see if he can react and hide back before the priest casts a spell.
I roll initiative for the NPCs and the initiative order looks like that : 1. Priest - 2. Rogue - 3. Others NPCs.
1. The priest casts Command (lvl 1 spell) with the word : Approach. Save is failed for the rogue.
2. The rogue has now to play and moves forward with a dash action to reach the priest, answering the command spell.
I do not make any opportunity attacks on this move and the halfing reaches the priest.
3. The four first NPCs rush in to the first room with a dash action in order to take position to fight the rest of the group. The NPCs are not aware at that point of the size of the PCs group.
3b.Two of the guards near the priest make their attack against the rogue.
This what happened on the first round. The light complain was the fact that no others PCs could react during this round.
My opinion was that having no precise idea, before the casting of the command spell, of the presence of the NPCs, nor having a line of sight, they could not react during this round.
What is your opinion ? Were the rules applied correctly ? should I had homebrew some rules here to offer a reaction to the PCs?
When you make a call for initiative, generally it's for everybody. Especially since both groups were within engagement range. If the PCs did not know the bad guys were there, there is a chance they suffer surprise.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I agree, what it sounds like to me is that the situation indicates they were surprised. In future situations I would consider first having everyone roll initiative because it is necessary for the surprise "round" based on how surprise works. Then go through the initiative as per usual until the action that initially causes the surprise occurs. With the way the surprise rule is written, anyone who went before the character initiating surprise would take their turn normally. Those afterwards, based on the situation, would either be surprised by the character's actions or not. Those who are surprised would not be able to take any actions and could not take reactions until after their initiative. Then once the first round is completed, combat proceeds as per usual.
I would have had everyone roll initiative, and would have restricted the rest of the PCs to perception checks to listen out for sounds that indicate something was wrong. So not necessarily stuck with the surprised condition, but they would have needed a reason to charge in outside of player awareness at the table.
The DC to hear the priest say "approach" I would put over 20 (a room away and not shouted), but the DC to hear the 4 NPCs take position would be 10, since they dashed and were not stealthing. This gives the players a chance to do something heroic (remember PCs have "heroic" senses) and prevent the NPCs from getting a big advantage. Everyone gets to roll initiative, everyone gets to roll something, and the dice rolls may even be high enough for a "I think they just cast a spell on our Rogue...charge!" Or a "I hear multiple footsteps rushing towards us!"
But with that said, you handled it fine, especially in the moment at the table.
Thank you very much for your replies. It really helps
I have to say my PCs do not complain much and do it really nicely when they do. We are all new to the 5th version and the PCs often refer to their common sense (that is pretty sharp) to judge a situation and I like it :-)
To push a bit forward the analysis of the scene, if I ask the player to roll a perception check like Sigvard_Vigrid suggested, how do I handle the initiative.
Concrete example :
Perception DC 10 as I consider the priest proud of his power, not very smart and willing to demonstrate his powers to boost its troop morale. I also RP it that way with a loudy voice.
PC 1, 2, 3, 4 succeed their perception check.
Do I ask the four of them to roll initiative and the rogue as well ? When does the round start ? If it starts after the casting of the spell, how do I give a chance to the rogue to hide back and avoid the spell ?
Let put it this way, initiative ranks are : 1. PC1 / 2. PC 2 / 3. NPC Priest / 4. Rogue / 5. Rest of the NPCs / 6. PC 3&4
The round "starts" when the first combat thing happens. In this instance, it was the spell. The rolls then fall where they fall. To your question of giving the rogue a chance to hide before the spell is cast, that isn't really possible. 5e rules don't allow for hiding after a spell is already being cast.
BUT... and this is up to you: I allow my players to have a "standard readied action" in situations like this. Your players knew (I think) that there were bad guys in the area. They sent the rogue ahead for that reason. What is their "go to" move if something goes down? From going through something similar in my games, I know which player is going to run in to the rogue and which is going to ready an attack in case someone gets in range. This will also be something that players might start telling you depending on the situation. If you wanted to be generous, and if the players communicated that they were all going to rush in and attack if something went down, you could have gone in this sequence: 1-Priest notices rogue and casts spell. 2- other PCs hear and rush in, weapons drawn. 3-PCs make it to room right as the rogue walks up to Priest 4- everyone roll initiative.
It gets a little tricky, because you don't want them telling you every single thing all the time when out of combat. But you and them can get a feel for combat basics that they default to, which is important when combat suddenly starts like it did here.
And even though PC1&2 are getting left out on the first round because they rolled well on initiative, that's just how it played out this time. It doesn't happen often, and at the end of the day, the rogue's stealth roll is what dictates the actions. If he had rolled high, it could have gone the exact opposite way.
Feel free to modify initiative in this type of situation, as long as it makes sense, and fits how your players play their characters. I've seen situations similar to this come up when people talk about not using initiative. I think it's a good system, but I tweak it sometimes.
I'll join in and say I think that handling was fine.
Things that would maybe get one of the other PCs involved right away:
If one has the Alert feat, I'd let them roll init at the same time as the rogue and NPCs. But what actions they could take would be limited--you're around the corner, you know something just happened, but you don't know what. Might be able to jump around the corner, but wouldn't be able to target anyone specifically until they see the lay of the land.
If one had specifically stated that they were doing something that would have alerted them to what actually happened...peeking one eye around the corner, using a mirror to do the same, had cast clairaudience/clairvoyance, was using detect magic, etc.
Hello Guys,
I had a gamee today and went through a fight situation that raised a light complain about the way I handled it.
Here is the situation (Link of the map :https://ibb.co/VWc66k9 - the scale is not exactly right as the PCs/NPCs dots should be bigger)
PCs are in the cavern, exploring (green in the linked picture). They are aware that the ennemis (in red on the map) are somewhere nevertheless they don't know how many they are and where they are.
As they made quite a lot of noise previously, the NPCs are very well aware of their presence and regroup to protect their priest (blue in the map) in his chamber and are waiting for the PCs to arrive.
The PCs are cautious and move slowly, sending the halfing rogue first (PC 1). Both curtains you can see on the map are opened.
The rogue move slowly behind the table to the corner and take a look to the corridor. Unfortunately, his stealth check is less than the NPCs perception and at the moment, he takes the look, I ask him to roll initiative to see if he can react and hide back before the priest casts a spell.
I roll initiative for the NPCs and the initiative order looks like that : 1. Priest - 2. Rogue - 3. Others NPCs.
1. The priest casts Command (lvl 1 spell) with the word : Approach. Save is failed for the rogue.
2. The rogue has now to play and moves forward with a dash action to reach the priest, answering the command spell.
I do not make any opportunity attacks on this move and the halfing reaches the priest.
3. The four first NPCs rush in to the first room with a dash action in order to take position to fight the rest of the group. The NPCs are not aware at that point of the size of the PCs group.
3b.Two of the guards near the priest make their attack against the rogue.
This what happened on the first round. The light complain was the fact that no others PCs could react during this round.
My opinion was that having no precise idea, before the casting of the command spell, of the presence of the NPCs, nor having a line of sight, they could not react during this round.
What is your opinion ? Were the rules applied correctly ? should I had homebrew some rules here to offer a reaction to the PCs?
When you make a call for initiative, generally it's for everybody. Especially since both groups were within engagement range. If the PCs did not know the bad guys were there, there is a chance they suffer surprise.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I’d say that the PCs were surprised and couldn’t act the first round. I think that what you did was fine.
Professional computer geek
I agree, what it sounds like to me is that the situation indicates they were surprised. In future situations I would consider first having everyone roll initiative because it is necessary for the surprise "round" based on how surprise works. Then go through the initiative as per usual until the action that initially causes the surprise occurs. With the way the surprise rule is written, anyone who went before the character initiating surprise would take their turn normally. Those afterwards, based on the situation, would either be surprised by the character's actions or not. Those who are surprised would not be able to take any actions and could not take reactions until after their initiative. Then once the first round is completed, combat proceeds as per usual.
I agree with the other posters. Moreover, you handled in a balanced fashion.
Your ruling should stand. If they still have a problem, discuss it as a group (outside of normal game session time).
-IT
I would have had everyone roll initiative, and would have restricted the rest of the PCs to perception checks to listen out for sounds that indicate something was wrong. So not necessarily stuck with the surprised condition, but they would have needed a reason to charge in outside of player awareness at the table.
The DC to hear the priest say "approach" I would put over 20 (a room away and not shouted), but the DC to hear the 4 NPCs take position would be 10, since they dashed and were not stealthing. This gives the players a chance to do something heroic (remember PCs have "heroic" senses) and prevent the NPCs from getting a big advantage. Everyone gets to roll initiative, everyone gets to roll something, and the dice rolls may even be high enough for a "I think they just cast a spell on our Rogue...charge!" Or a "I hear multiple footsteps rushing towards us!"
But with that said, you handled it fine, especially in the moment at the table.
Hello Guys,
Thank you very much for your replies. It really helps
I have to say my PCs do not complain much and do it really nicely when they do. We are all new to the 5th version and the PCs often refer to their common sense (that is pretty sharp) to judge a situation and I like it :-)
To push a bit forward the analysis of the scene, if I ask the player to roll a perception check like Sigvard_Vigrid suggested, how do I handle the initiative.
Concrete example :
Perception DC 10 as I consider the priest proud of his power, not very smart and willing to demonstrate his powers to boost its troop morale. I also RP it that way with a loudy voice.
PC 1, 2, 3, 4 succeed their perception check.
Do I ask the four of them to roll initiative and the rogue as well ? When does the round start ? If it starts after the casting of the spell, how do I give a chance to the rogue to hide back and avoid the spell ?
Let put it this way, initiative ranks are : 1. PC1 / 2. PC 2 / 3. NPC Priest / 4. Rogue / 5. Rest of the NPCs / 6. PC 3&4
When do PC1&2 get to act ?
PC 1&2 would act in round 2 in that instance.
The round "starts" when the first combat thing happens. In this instance, it was the spell. The rolls then fall where they fall. To your question of giving the rogue a chance to hide before the spell is cast, that isn't really possible. 5e rules don't allow for hiding after a spell is already being cast.
BUT... and this is up to you: I allow my players to have a "standard readied action" in situations like this. Your players knew (I think) that there were bad guys in the area. They sent the rogue ahead for that reason. What is their "go to" move if something goes down? From going through something similar in my games, I know which player is going to run in to the rogue and which is going to ready an attack in case someone gets in range. This will also be something that players might start telling you depending on the situation. If you wanted to be generous, and if the players communicated that they were all going to rush in and attack if something went down, you could have gone in this sequence: 1-Priest notices rogue and casts spell. 2- other PCs hear and rush in, weapons drawn. 3-PCs make it to room right as the rogue walks up to Priest 4- everyone roll initiative.
It gets a little tricky, because you don't want them telling you every single thing all the time when out of combat. But you and them can get a feel for combat basics that they default to, which is important when combat suddenly starts like it did here.
And even though PC1&2 are getting left out on the first round because they rolled well on initiative, that's just how it played out this time. It doesn't happen often, and at the end of the day, the rogue's stealth roll is what dictates the actions. If he had rolled high, it could have gone the exact opposite way.
Feel free to modify initiative in this type of situation, as long as it makes sense, and fits how your players play their characters. I've seen situations similar to this come up when people talk about not using initiative. I think it's a good system, but I tweak it sometimes.
I'll join in and say I think that handling was fine.
Things that would maybe get one of the other PCs involved right away:
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
Thank you Sigvard for your additionnal feedback !
Thank you as well Brotherbock for the precision and the mention of the alert feat.
My conclusion is that I should have asked for a perception roll and delay the initiative request just after the casting of the spell.