When characters encounter a lock, what's required to try and open it? I'm asking because of this seeming throwaway mention in the PHB, p.175:
For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can't help another character in that task.
My gaming background is many years of first edition AD&D, transitioning directly to fifth edition; it's odd for me to think of any character being able to pick/open a lock. However, this sentence seems to imply that only a character who owns and is proficient with thieves' tools can attempt it.
EXCEPT! In the description of thieves' tools (PHB, p.154), it says:
Proficiency with these tools lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to disarm traps or open locks.
....which seems to imply that any character can try (and potentially succeed) in opening/picking a lock, and that the tools only allow the proficiency bonus to be applied.
So which is it?
I think this is a perfect example of explicit RAW trumping implicit RAW. The second quote implies you should be able to attempt to pick a lock without proficiency, but the first quote explicitly says you cannot.
And the truth of the matter is that both statements on their face are correct.
Except, a PHB rule that provides that RAW you cannot take the Help action to pick a lock unless you have Thieves' Tools proficiency, is not a rule that provides that RAW you cannot attempt to pick a lock without that proficiency. It's provided in a section illustrating that assistance needs to "actually be productive" to provide the benefit of a Help action ("I give the thief a wet willy while he's picking the lock, I'm Help-ing!" "Um, no you aren't."), not in a section which provides a general rule about lock picking.
It certainly implies a (misunderstanding of the) rule about picking locks, conflating the fact that you do need Thieves' Tools, with an unsupported inference that you also need proficiency with Thieves' Tools. But to the extent that it's talking about Thieves' Tools to provide a "helpful" example and not to establish a new rule, while the other section contradicts this while it is establishing a rule, means you should trust Chapter 5 on this one.
A tool helps you to do something you couldn't otherwise do, such as craft or repair an item, forge a document, or pick a lock. Your race, class, background, or feats give you proficiency with certain tools. Proficiency with a tool allows you to add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make using that tool. Tool use is not tied to a single ability, since proficiency with a tool represents broader knowledge of its use.
...
Thieves' Tools. This set of tools includes a small file, a set of lock picks, a small mirror mounted on a metal handle, a set of narrow-bladed scissors, and a pair of pliers. Proficiency with these tools lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to disarm traps or open locks.
I don't see any contradiction with Chapter 5. Both statements are true. You must have proficiency with thieves' tools to try to open a lock, which allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the ability check.
The tool lets you do something new. The proficiency allows you to add bonus while doing so. Chapter 5 nowhere describes that one needs proficiency in order to use a tool, if that were true it would mean that tools are fundamentally different from skills and weapons, And it is not credible to expect that that rule would pop up in chapter 7 instead of in chapter 5 where the uses of the tools are fully described.
The locks that you can purchase in the PH require proficiency to open:
"Lock. A key is provided with the lock. Without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick this lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check. Your DM may decide that better locks are available for higher prices."
"Thieves' Tools. This set of tools includes a small file, a set of lock picks, a small mirror mounted on a metal handle, a set of narrow-bladed scissors, and a pair of pliers. Proficiency with these tools lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to disarm traps or open locks."
"A tool helps you to d o something you couldn't otherwise do, such as craft or repair an item, forge a document, or pick a lock."
The actual text regarding using the Help action to pick a lock explicitly states that the REASON a character can't help with a lock pick check without proficiency is because they could not make such a check alone without the proficiency.
"A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can't help another character in that task."
DMG
"Locked Doors. Characters who don't have the key to a locked door can pick the lock with a successful Dexterity check (doing so requires thieves' tools and proficiency in their use)"
"If the adventurers detect a trap before triggering it, they might be able to disarm it, either permanently or long enough to move past it. You might call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check for a character to deduce what needs to be done, followed by a Dexterity check using thieves' tools to perform the necessary sabotage."
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References in both the PH and DMG make it pretty clear that the RAW intent is that opening locks requires thieves tools AND proficiency with those tools to attempt. This is less clear with traps which may indicate the need for thieves tools to make the roll but proficiency may not be needed (at least it isn't explicitly stated anywhere that I could find in reference to traps).
To the extent that the DMG implies all locks are picked with Dexterity, it too is directly contradicting the PHB, which states that tools can be used with a variety of ability scores. I HAVE noticed that most (not all) published locks continue that “Dex only” restriction…
…I dunno, maybe you’re right. Maybe a non proficient alchemist can attempt a potion but only a Master Thief is allowed to try their luck with a lock. If so, poor/inconsistent design :/
To the extent that the DMG implies all locks are picked with Dexterity, it too is directly contradicting the PHB, which states that tools can be used with a variety of ability scores. I HAVE noticed that most (not all) published locks continue that “Dex only” restriction…
…I dunno, maybe you’re right. Maybe a non proficient alchemist can attempt a potion but only a Master Thief is allowed to try their luck with a lock. If so, poor/inconsistent design :/
Honestly, it has more to do with how the DM wants to run it - most ability checks in 5e are pretty clearly intended to be attempted whether a character is proficient or not. However, from a "realism" point of view I can understand that some tasks should require both a specific tool and proficiency or training in its use in order for there to be even a remote chance of success.
Examples:
Picking a lock ... just having the tools is not enough in my opinion - to successfully pick a lock on the game time scale you need to know what you are doing. An instruction book probably would not be enough.
Making a potion ... if an herbalism kit comes with an instruction book then anyone could attempt it just by following the recipe - someone who is proficient would know what they are doing and might be less likely to make a mistake. If the kit does not have instructions then I would think the odds of making a healing potion are about equal to making a poison one for a character who can't tell the different ingredients apart.
Performing a feat of strength - anyone should be able to make an athletics check.
Performing an acrobatic or gymnastics routine - not happening in my opinion unless a character is proficient with the skill.
Thieves' tools say they let you add your proficiency bonus, not that it's required. As a result, you don't need to be proficient with the tools to use them - anyone can try a thieves' tools check in general.
Locks do say you have to be proficient with the tools to pick them.
So, assuming the only things the tools do are disarm traps and pick locks, you can disarm traps while not proficient (since no rule anyone can find says otherwise, and the tools indicate you can), but you can't pick locks while not proficient, because the locks say you can't.
To the extent that the DMG implies all locks are picked with Dexterity, it too is directly contradicting the PHB, which states that tools can be used with a variety of ability scores. I HAVE noticed that most (not all) published locks continue that “Dex only” restriction…
…I dunno, maybe you’re right. Maybe a non proficient alchemist can attempt a potion but only a Master Thief is allowed to try their luck with a lock. If so, poor/inconsistent design :/
I don’t think it’s contradictory. General vs Specific. As a general rule tools can use different ability checks. But specific rule for locks or locked door say it must be DEX.
It’s just odd to me that that specific rule would not appear under Thieves Tools, but rather under the Help action. But, the DMG quote does show that you’re right, just feels like sloppy editing to make you find a rule in a different chapter and different book than the tool itself.
It’s just odd to me that that specific rule would not appear under Thieves Tools, but rather under the Help action. But, the DMG quote does show that you’re right, just feels like sloppy editing to make you find a rule in a different chapter and different book than the tool itself.
I keep seeing comments like this.
"It just seems inconsistent." "It just seems sloppy."
I might reference this every now and then and I'll always look to DnDBeyond.com before other forums, that said, I found a helpful tip elsewhere and reposting here:
You have Thieves’ Tools and are proficient with them. You can attempt to pick the lock and get to add your proficiency bonus to the (Dex) check.
You have Thieves’ Tools and have expertise with Thieves’ Tools. You can attempt to pick the lock and get to add twice your proficiency bonus the (Dex) check.
You have Thieves’ Tools but you aren’t proficient with them. You can still attempt to pick the lock but you don’t get to add your proficiency bonus (since it’s a bonus you only get when you are proficient with something).
You don’t have any Thieves’ Tools so you improvise some (with your DM’s approval) but you aren’t proficient with Thieves’ Tools. You can still attempt to pick the lock but with disadvantage.
You have improvised tools and you have proficiency with Thieves’ Tools. You have disadvantage on picking the lock, but you do get to add your proficiency bonus.
No Thieves’ Tools and no improvised tools. Take a strength check to throw the closest party member through the door or crowbar the lock. Basically, look for another way to get past it because you can’t pick it.
My rule of thumb is that no tool require proficiency to use, but having proficiency with one usually makes you better at a given task. But some task or object may require proper tool proficiency and if so they can't be attempted without it, being too complexe to achieve without.
I use such ruling notably for many trap disarming, lock picking, document forgery kit, creating atitoxin and potion of healing with herbalism kit, charting a ship's course and following navigation charts with navigation's tool among other things.
You realize you are replying to a 2 year old post that no one has cared about in the same amount of time right?
As the thread starter, I appreciated his reply.
I think this is a perfect example of explicit RAW trumping implicit RAW. The second quote implies you should be able to attempt to pick a lock without proficiency, but the first quote explicitly says you cannot.
And the truth of the matter is that both statements on their face are correct.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Except, a PHB rule that provides that RAW you cannot take the Help action to pick a lock unless you have Thieves' Tools proficiency, is not a rule that provides that RAW you cannot attempt to pick a lock without that proficiency. It's provided in a section illustrating that assistance needs to "actually be productive" to provide the benefit of a Help action ("I give the thief a wet willy while he's picking the lock, I'm Help-ing!" "Um, no you aren't."), not in a section which provides a general rule about lock picking.
It certainly implies a (misunderstanding of the) rule about picking locks, conflating the fact that you do need Thieves' Tools, with an unsupported inference that you also need proficiency with Thieves' Tools. But to the extent that it's talking about Thieves' Tools to provide a "helpful" example and not to establish a new rule, while the other section contradicts this while it is establishing a rule, means you should trust Chapter 5 on this one.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I don't see any contradiction with Chapter 5. Both statements are true. You must have proficiency with thieves' tools to try to open a lock, which allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the ability check.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The tool lets you do something new. The proficiency allows you to add bonus while doing so. Chapter 5 nowhere describes that one needs proficiency in order to use a tool, if that were true it would mean that tools are fundamentally different from skills and weapons, And it is not credible to expect that that rule would pop up in chapter 7 instead of in chapter 5 where the uses of the tools are fully described.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Additional references :)
The locks that you can purchase in the PH require proficiency to open:
"Lock. A key is provided with the lock. Without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick this lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check. Your DM may decide that better locks are available for higher prices."
"Thieves' Tools. This set of tools includes a small file, a set of lock picks, a small mirror mounted on a metal handle, a set of narrow-bladed scissors, and a pair of pliers. Proficiency with these tools lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to disarm traps or open locks."
"A tool helps you to d o something you couldn't otherwise do, such as craft or repair an item, forge a document, or pick a lock."
The actual text regarding using the Help action to pick a lock explicitly states that the REASON a character can't help with a lock pick check without proficiency is because they could not make such a check alone without the proficiency.
"A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can't help another character in that task."
DMG
"Locked Doors. Characters who don't have the key to a locked door can pick the lock with a successful Dexterity check (doing so requires thieves' tools and proficiency in their use)"
"If the adventurers detect a trap before triggering it, they might be able to disarm it, either permanently or long enough to move past it. You might call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check for a character to deduce what needs to be done, followed by a Dexterity check using thieves' tools to perform the necessary sabotage."
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References in both the PH and DMG make it pretty clear that the RAW intent is that opening locks requires thieves tools AND proficiency with those tools to attempt. This is less clear with traps which may indicate the need for thieves tools to make the roll but proficiency may not be needed (at least it isn't explicitly stated anywhere that I could find in reference to traps).
To the extent that the DMG implies all locks are picked with Dexterity, it too is directly contradicting the PHB, which states that tools can be used with a variety of ability scores. I HAVE noticed that most (not all) published locks continue that “Dex only” restriction…
…I dunno, maybe you’re right. Maybe a non proficient alchemist can attempt a potion but only a Master Thief is allowed to try their luck with a lock. If so, poor/inconsistent design :/
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Honestly, it has more to do with how the DM wants to run it - most ability checks in 5e are pretty clearly intended to be attempted whether a character is proficient or not. However, from a "realism" point of view I can understand that some tasks should require both a specific tool and proficiency or training in its use in order for there to be even a remote chance of success.
Examples:
Picking a lock ... just having the tools is not enough in my opinion - to successfully pick a lock on the game time scale you need to know what you are doing. An instruction book probably would not be enough.
Making a potion ... if an herbalism kit comes with an instruction book then anyone could attempt it just by following the recipe - someone who is proficient would know what they are doing and might be less likely to make a mistake. If the kit does not have instructions then I would think the odds of making a healing potion are about equal to making a poison one for a character who can't tell the different ingredients apart.
Performing a feat of strength - anyone should be able to make an athletics check.
Performing an acrobatic or gymnastics routine - not happening in my opinion unless a character is proficient with the skill.
Didn't we just have a thread on this?
Here's the conclusion I recall us coming to:
I don’t think it’s contradictory. General vs Specific. As a general rule tools can use different ability checks. But specific rule for locks or locked door say it must be DEX.
It’s just odd to me that that specific rule would not appear under Thieves Tools, but rather under the Help action. But, the DMG quote does show that you’re right, just feels like sloppy editing to make you find a rule in a different chapter and different book than the tool itself.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I keep seeing comments like this.
"It just seems inconsistent." "It just seems sloppy."
Who ever accused 5e of anything different?
I might reference this every now and then and I'll always look to DnDBeyond.com before other forums, that said, I found a helpful tip elsewhere and reposting here:
Original reference: https://olddungeonmaster.com/2016/11/03/dd-5e-picking-locks/
i like to create things ... Check out my magic items!
Psionicist Subclass and Psionic Disciplines (REAL Psychic Powers)My rule of thumb is that no tool require proficiency to use, but having proficiency with one usually makes you better at a given task. But some task or object may require proper tool proficiency and if so they can't be attempted without it, being too complexe to achieve without.
I use such ruling notably for many trap disarming, lock picking, document forgery kit, creating atitoxin and potion of healing with herbalism kit, charting a ship's course and following navigation charts with navigation's tool among other things.