Going back to your example of Susan and Fred in an area of Darkness, here are two different scenarios.
Fred is a fighter wearing plate armor. He doesn’t use an action to Hide.
Fred is a rogue. He uses a bonus action to hide and beats Susan’s passive perception.
In my mind, there has to be a clear difference between these scenarios. Fighter Fred is unseen by Susan because of the Darkness but she knows where he is. Rogue Fred is unseen and also hidden so Susan does not know where he is.
If that is your interpretation of the rules that's fine, but you are effectively giving every PC the 14th level rogue feature "Blindsense", which does exactly what you are saying.
Well, let’s face it. Turns are 6 seconds. They represent bursts of adrenaline. With all that adrenaline, are you going to take the time to listen your enemy move, or focus on the spell you’re already casting that strains your body already. Hint:Not focusing.
RAW: they don’t know where you are. You are unseen. If you aren’t there and they’re guessing, they miss automatically. Otherwise, disadvantage, unless the enemy also can’t see them.
Example: Susan casts Fire Bolt. Fred has went first and moved in his plate to the hall. Susan is aiming at where he was, since she won’t know he moved. Natural 20. She misses.
If that is your interpretation of the rules that's fine, but you are effectively giving every PC the 14th level rogue feature "Blindsense", which does exactly what you are saying.
Blindsense lets the rogue known where a hidden creature is, so Blindsense would give the location of Fighter Fred and Rogue Fred.
Your interpretation lets everyone automatically hide without using an action. That’s even better than Cunning Action.
Well, let’s face it. Turns are 6 seconds. They represent bursts of adrenaline. With all that adrenaline, are you going to take the time to listen your enemy move, or focus on the spell you’re already casting that strains your body already. Hint:Not focusing.
RAW: they don’t know where you are. You are unseen. If you aren’t there and they’re guessing, they miss automatically. Otherwise, disadvantage, unless the enemy also can’t see them.
Example: Susan casts Fire Bolt. Fred has went first and moved in his plate to the hall. Susan is aiming at where he was, since she won’t know he moved. Natural 20. She misses.
So, I agree with BrotherBock
As I have said before, if there are other things that make it impossible to hear the target and it is also unseen, then it makes sense for the DM to rule that you cannot know where the target is, even if the target didn’t try to hide.
Assuming there are no other factors, Susan knows Fred’s location because he is breathing hard, his armor makes sound when he moves, his heavy boots make lots of noise on the stone floor, etc. He isn’t trying to be quiet, he didn’t use an action to try to be quiet. Susan wouldn’t assume that Fred was still in the same place because she heard him move. She can hear him breathing heavily because he has been fighting. He’s walking around in the dark so he is probably swearing when he trips over a chair (not something actually covered by the rules, D&D characters can apparently walk around in the dark without any problem). She knows his location because she can hear him. Again, this assumes there are no other factors like other people yelling, screaming, tripping over chairs, etc.
The original question was about Burning Hands, an area of effect spell. If Fred is in the area of effect and he doesn’t have cover, it doesn’t matter if he is invisible, in Darkness, hidden, etc. He has to make a Dex save with no modifications, full damage on failed, half on success.
Wow ... I can't believe how many times this argument comes up.
1) Darkness/fog cloud cause the heavily obscured condition. This means that the creatures are considered unseen. None of these provide any sort of cover. Cover requires an OBSTACLE that blocks or partially blocks the path to the target.
Rules:
Cover pg 196:
"Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. ..."
Vision and Light pg 183
"The most fundamental tasks of adventuring—noticing danger, finding hidden objects, hitting an enemy in combat, and targeting a spell, to name just a few—rely heavily on a character's ability to see. Darkness and other effects that obscure vision can prove a significant hindrance."
"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area."
Unseen attackers and targets: pg194
"Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding. casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss.
"When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
Character try to escape notice by HIDING, lurking in darkness or casting invisibility ... however, ONLY hidden has the possibility of making your position unknown (unseen and unheard). Otherwise, you are fully aware of the general position of all opponents that you can hear (at DM discretion).
Here is the text from the Invisible status at the back of the book:
"INVISIBLE • An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. • Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
Being invisible does NOT automatically make you hidden. It does mean that attacks against you by a creature that can not see you will have disadvantage and your attacks against a creature if you can see them will have advantage.
Hiding: pg 177
An invisible creature can't be seen so it can always try to hide - this means that invisible creatures are NOT automatically hidden. They are just unseen. To hide they need to be unseen and unheard which requires taking the hide action to pass a stealth (dexterity) check against the opponent's passive perception. If they are successful then the opponent will lose track of the exact location of the target and will have to guess where they are. However, without the hide check, the location of an invisible creature or a heavily obscured one in fog or darkness is STILL known. You can still attack them and still cast spells that do not require the caster to be able to see the target.
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet."
Use passive perception in combat to determine if a stealth (dexterity) check to hide is successful
"Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score,"
2) Here is another point that most folks who don't understand the hiding and unseen attacker rules tend to miss. PHB 194-5
"When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll."
"When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."
"If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage."PHB 173
This means that when opponents are both in darkness or fog, or both are invisible, or any situation in which they can't see each other. ALL attack rolls are a straight roll. The advantage gained by your opponent not being able to see you is cancelled by the disadvantage you gain because you can't see them. This means that if someone casts a darkness spell in melee it generally has NO effect on the combat rolls unless characters had some other way to gain advantage (e.g. barbarian reckless attack will not work in darkness).
Darkness can cancel a number of status effects because advantage and disadvantage do not stack. If you can't see in magical darkness (typically this is reserved for warlock's with devils sight or shadow sorcerers casting darkness using sorcery points) then:
- you can't get advantage vs prone opponents and if someone knocks you prone they won't have advantage
- ranged attacks can be made adjacent to opponents without suffering disadvantage
- barbarians can't benefit from reckless attack
- if a character is suffering from the poisoned condition that would normally impose disadvantage then attacking in darkness counters this. It would also enable a poisoned rogue to continue making sneak attacks against targets with an enemy of the target adjacent since their attack is not subject to disadvantage.
----------------------------------------------
Anyway, the bottom line is that when a character cast invisibility or they are in darkness, their position is STILL known. They have to successfully hide vs other creatures passive perception for their position to become unknown at which time opponents have to guess where they are located.
A DM is free to run their game as they see fit but RAW ... this is how the game plays.
The key to this situation is the phrase "if the isn't in the location you targeted you automatically miss" or in this situation "if the target isn't in the area of effect you automatically miss." Burning Hands an area effect spell, it is not targeted, there for being unable to see some or all of the area of effect has no consequence. The wizard declares the desired area of effect and that is where the spell goes. The wizard knows where the villain was when the Darkness spell was cast, and can set the area of effect to include that location as long as it is within range. Th villain may or may not still be there, but that is a separate issue. the spell will hit its full area of effect (barring obstructions) and everyone within that area of effect will have to make a saving throw. The Darkness has no effect on how the Burning Hands operates. Burning Hands is not targeting a person, it is effecting an area.
I never said that Hide is needed to be unseen. I agree with almost everything you said. I’m saying that a Darkness spell and movement by the target are not in themselves sufficient to cause the target’s location to become unknown. In most cases, the target must use Hide to make his location unknown. A combination of Darkness and Silence would also work, or Darkness and Deafened, and a lot of other things too.
Going back to your example of Susan and Fred in an area of Darkness, here are two different scenarios.
Fred is a fighter wearing plate armor. He doesn’t use an action to Hide.
Fred is a rogue. He uses a bonus action to hide and beats Susan’s passive perception.
In my mind, there has to be a clear difference between these scenarios. Fighter Fred is unseen by Susan because of the Darkness but she knows where he is. Rogue Fred is unseen and also hidden so Susan does not know where he is.
And I agree that Hiding + Invisible/Darkness will be better for you, I'm with you on that. Because without Hiding, you are only 'hidden' (in the informal meaning) from one sense. 'Hide' is general enough that you can use it to disguise yourself from other senses too (a Hide roll can be used to keep a dog from sniffing you out, at least I'd rule that you can try).
My way of ruling has to do with the Unseen Targets rules, plus the fact that passive perception is not automatic granted. Distraction can keep you from being able to use it. More extreme case--Fred and Susan are fighting in a chamber behind a large, roaring waterfall, so loud they can barely hear each other shouting curses :) Fred casts darkness. I am not giving Susan a passive perception check to hear Fred moving around :) And now just in a dungeon with the sounds of combat all around them--getting a passive check isn't automatic there either.
"Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding. casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss.
"When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
<snip>
Being invisible does NOT automatically make you hidden. It does mean that attacks against you by a creature that can not see you will have disadvantage and your attacks against a creature if you can see them will have advantage.
<snip>
Use passive perception in combat to determine if a stealth (dexterity) check to hide is successful
"Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score,"
<snip>
Anyway, the bottom line is that when a character cast invisibility or they are in darkness, their position is STILL known. They have to successfully hide vs other creatures passive perception for their position to become unknown at which time opponents have to guess where they are located.
A DM is free to run their game as they see fit but RAW ... this is how the game plays.
I just don't see it that way. It's ambigious as to what the "This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see" passage applies to, passive perception is not automatically granted (specifically, distraction can cause it to not kick in), and as I mentioned above, being Hidden does do more than being invisible, but that by itself does not mean that being invisible does not do what I'm saying it does.
As I read these same rules, being invisible/in darkness does mean that the attacker has to guess where you are and therefore might miss. I think the best interpretation of the Unseen Attackers and Targets passage is that all the effects listed apply to everything in the paragraph. As I say, it's ambiguous, but not equally so. Butbeing invisble and not Hidden also does mean that finding you by actively searching (different from taking the Attack or Spell casting action) will be easier. You're right that, if the target also can't see, there's no disadvantage. But that doesn't negate the 'still have to guess where the target is' part. So Invisible and Hidden is better. But being invisible and not Hiding doesn't given everyone around the mystical power to still automatically know exactly where you are if you don't also Hide. Can their general area be known? Sure. I can gauge movement rates and conclude they are still 'over there' somewhere. But if they have a movement, I cannot know where on the map they are.
The key to this situation is the phrase "if the isn't in the location you targeted you automatically miss" or in this situation "if the target isn't in the area of effect you automatically miss." Burning Hands an area effect spell, it is not targeted, there for being unable to see some or all of the area of effect has no consequence. The wizard declares the desired area of effect and that is where the spell goes. The wizard knows where the villain was when the Darkness spell was cast, and can set the area of effect to include that location as long as it is within range. Th villain may or may not still be there, but that is a separate issue. the spell will hit its full area of effect (barring obstructions) and everyone within that area of effect will have to make a saving throw. The Darkness has no effect on how the Burning Hands operates. Burning Hands is not targeting a person, it is effecting an area.
This is a good point, and appropriate to the original question. It'll be easier to guess where the target is when you say "somewhere in a 57 degree range" rather than "right there". But even then, if the target has 30 feet of movement, and you place your 15 foot burning hands cone (57 degree angle from the center) in the wrong place, you miss them.
This is a good point, and appropriate to the original question. It'll be easier to guess where the target is when you say "somewhere in a 57 degree range" rather than "right there". But even then, if the target has 30 feet of movement, and you place your 15 foot burning hands cone (57 degree angle from the center) in the wrong place, you miss them.
Yep, place that cone wrong and you miss. There is a chance of that happening even if the villain doesn't move. I have seen people not pay attention and the guess completely wrong when it's time for them to act.
The Darkness spell would seem to be a great defense against Magic Missile "hits a creature of your choice that you can see", just knowing where they are is not enough. Firebolt and Ray of Frost just require an attack roll against a creature within range. If the target was in darkness the attack roll would be made with disadvantage of course.
Attacking an unseen target gives disadvantage on the roll because you do not know exactly where they are. This is true whether you are unseen due to invisibility or darkness, or anything else. Unseen is just that, you can't see them. You might be able to hear (or smell) them and so know generally where they are or you might be completely guessing (I think there is an invisible assassin in this room over by the wardrobe) either way your attack will be at disadvantage. If you attack the area by the wardrobe and the invisible assassin is in fact under the bed you will automatically miss because you attacked a place where the target wasn't.
I would rule that Darkness and Silence stacked on the same area would allow someone an automatic success at Hiding, they are both unseen and unheard, but I would still require them to take the Hide action to do so. A creature hiding in silent darkness could still be located with perception as can any Hidden creature, but I would probably require a Search action not just passive perception.
This is a good point, and appropriate to the original question. It'll be easier to guess where the target is when you say "somewhere in a 57 degree range" rather than "right there". But even then, if the target has 30 feet of movement, and you place your 15 foot burning hands cone (57 degree angle from the center) in the wrong place, you miss them.
Yep, place that cone wrong and you miss. There is a chance of that happening even if the villain doesn't move. I have seen people not pay attention and the guess completely wrong when it's time for them to act.
The Darkness spell would seem to be a great defense against Magic Missile "hits a creature of your choice that you can see", just knowing where they are is not enough. Firebolt and Ray of Frost just require an attack roll against a creature within range. If the target was in darkness the attack roll would be made with disadvantage of course.
Attacking an unseen target gives disadvantage on the roll because you do not know exactly where they are. This is true whether you are unseen due to invisibility or darkness, or anything else. Unseen is just that, you can't see them. You might be able to hear (or smell) them and so know generally where they are or you might be completely guessing (I think there is an invisible assassin in this room over by the wardrobe) either way your attack will be at disadvantage. If you attack the area by the wardrobe and the invisible assassin is in fact under the bed you will automatically miss because you attacked a place where the target wasn't.
I would rule that Darkness and Silence stacked on the same area would allow someone an automatic success at Hiding, they are both unseen and unheard, but I would still require them to take the Hide action to do so. A creature hiding in silent darkness could still be located with perception as can any Hidden creature, but I would probably require a Search action not just passive perception.
Agreed, good explanation (and far more concise than mine :)
The darkness/silence stack would work for me, unless it was bloodhounds, or even a lot of monsters that would plausibly have good noses. Or if you'd just crawled into the castle through the sewers :D
This is a good point, and appropriate to the original question. It'll be easier to guess where the target is when you say "somewhere in a 57 degree range" rather than "right there". But even then, if the target has 30 feet of movement, and you place your 15 foot burning hands cone (57 degree angle from the center) in the wrong place, you miss them.
Yep, place that cone wrong and you miss. There is a chance of that happening even if the villain doesn't move. I have seen people not pay attention and the guess completely wrong when it's time for them to act.
The Darkness spell would seem to be a great defense against Magic Missile "hits a creature of your choice that you can see", just knowing where they are is not enough. Firebolt and Ray of Frost just require an attack roll against a creature within range. If the target was in darkness the attack roll would be made with disadvantage of course.
Attacking an unseen target gives disadvantage on the roll because you do not know exactly where they are. This is true whether you are unseen due to invisibility or darkness, or anything else. Unseen is just that, you can't see them. You might be able to hear (or smell) them and so know generally where they are or you might be completely guessing (I think there is an invisible assassin in this room over by the wardrobe) either way your attack will be at disadvantage. If you attack the area by the wardrobe and the invisible assassin is in fact under the bed you will automatically miss because you attacked a place where the target wasn't.
I would rule that Darkness and Silence stacked on the same area would allow someone an automatic success at Hiding, they are both unseen and unheard, but I would still require them to take the Hide action to do so. A creature hiding in silent darkness could still be located with perception as can any Hidden creature, but I would probably require a Search action not just passive perception.
I'd just like to point out:
"Attacking an unseen target gives disadvantage on the roll because you do not know exactly where they are." This is correct.
However -
The rules ALSO state that attacking a creature that can not see you gives you advantage.
The rules ALSO state that when you have advantage and disadvantage on an attack then you have neither, you roll one die, and additional conditions causing advantage or disadvantage make no difference.
In your example ... if the wizard casts a firebolt at a target in darkness where the target has not taken then hide action (and there are no extenuating circumstances preventing you from hearing them) then you still roughly know where they are. This would give you disadvantage on your attack roll. However if the target can also not see your attack then you have advantage. The two cancel and it is a straight to hit roll with the firebolt.
You are welcome to play however you wish but keep in mind that it is a house rule to use disadvantage for attacks against a target you can't see but which also can't see you. If the target had devil's sight and could see in magical darkness then the character using firebolt would have disadvantage and the character in the darkness with devils sight would have advantage.
This is a good point, and appropriate to the original question. It'll be easier to guess where the target is when you say "somewhere in a 57 degree range" rather than "right there". But even then, if the target has 30 feet of movement, and you place your 15 foot burning hands cone (57 degree angle from the center) in the wrong place, you miss them.
Yep, place that cone wrong and you miss. There is a chance of that happening even if the villain doesn't move. I have seen people not pay attention and the guess completely wrong when it's time for them to act.
The Darkness spell would seem to be a great defense against Magic Missile "hits a creature of your choice that you can see", just knowing where they are is not enough. Firebolt and Ray of Frost just require an attack roll against a creature within range. If the target was in darkness the attack roll would be made with disadvantage of course.
Attacking an unseen target gives disadvantage on the roll because you do not know exactly where they are. This is true whether you are unseen due to invisibility or darkness, or anything else. Unseen is just that, you can't see them. You might be able to hear (or smell) them and so know generally where they are or you might be completely guessing (I think there is an invisible assassin in this room over by the wardrobe) either way your attack will be at disadvantage. If you attack the area by the wardrobe and the invisible assassin is in fact under the bed you will automatically miss because you attacked a place where the target wasn't.
I would rule that Darkness and Silence stacked on the same area would allow someone an automatic success at Hiding, they are both unseen and unheard, but I would still require them to take the Hide action to do so. A creature hiding in silent darkness could still be located with perception as can any Hidden creature, but I would probably require a Search action not just passive perception.
I'd just like to point out:
"Attacking an unseen target gives disadvantage on the roll because you do not know exactly where they are." This is correct.
However -
The rules ALSO state that attacking a creature that can not see you gives you advantage.
The rules ALSO state that when you have advantage and disadvantage on an attack then you have neither, you roll one die, and additional conditions causing advantage or disadvantage make no difference.
In your example ... if the wizard casts a firebolt at a target in darkness where the target has not taken then hide action (and there are no extenuating circumstances preventing you from hearing them) then you still roughly know where they are. This would give you disadvantage on your attack roll. However if the target can also not see your attack then you have advantage. The two cancel and it is a straight to hit roll with the firebolt.
You are welcome to play however you wish but keep in mind that it is a house rule to use disadvantage for attacks against a target you can't see but which also can't see you. If the target had devil's sight and could see in magical darkness then the character using firebolt would have disadvantage and the character in the darkness with devils sight would have advantage.
Completely correct here. There are two factors--disadvantage/advantage, and not knowing their location. Even if you conclude like I do that darkness alone is enough to not know the location, if you're both in the darkness, the disadvantage wouldn't apply, as you say (excepting the warlock, and all that). So in the Fred/Susan example I gave, Susan wouldn't know where Fred was, but if she guessed correctly, she would role normally, no disadvantage.
Going back to your example of Susan and Fred in an area of Darkness, here are two different scenarios.
Fred is a fighter wearing plate armor. He doesn’t use an action to Hide.
Fred is a rogue. He uses a bonus action to hide and beats Susan’s passive perception.
In my mind, there has to be a clear difference between these scenarios. Fighter Fred is unseen by Susan because of the Darkness but she knows where he is. Rogue Fred is unseen and also hidden so Susan does not know where he is.
If that is your interpretation of the rules that's fine, but you are effectively giving every PC the 14th level rogue feature "Blindsense", which does exactly what you are saying.
Well, let’s face it. Turns are 6 seconds. They represent bursts of adrenaline. With all that adrenaline, are you going to take the time to listen your enemy move, or focus on the spell you’re already casting that strains your body already. Hint:Not focusing.
RAW: they don’t know where you are. You are unseen. If you aren’t there and they’re guessing, they miss automatically. Otherwise, disadvantage, unless the enemy also can’t see them.
Example: Susan casts Fire Bolt. Fred has went first and moved in his plate to the hall. Susan is aiming at where he was, since she won’t know he moved. Natural 20. She misses.
So, I agree with BrotherBock
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Blindsense lets the rogue known where a hidden creature is, so Blindsense would give the location of Fighter Fred and Rogue Fred.
Your interpretation lets everyone automatically hide without using an action. That’s even better than Cunning Action.
As I have said before, if there are other things that make it impossible to hear the target and it is also unseen, then it makes sense for the DM to rule that you cannot know where the target is, even if the target didn’t try to hide.
Assuming there are no other factors, Susan knows Fred’s location because he is breathing hard, his armor makes sound when he moves, his heavy boots make lots of noise on the stone floor, etc. He isn’t trying to be quiet, he didn’t use an action to try to be quiet. Susan wouldn’t assume that Fred was still in the same place because she heard him move. She can hear him breathing heavily because he has been fighting. He’s walking around in the dark so he is probably swearing when he trips over a chair (not something actually covered by the rules, D&D characters can apparently walk around in the dark without any problem). She knows his location because she can hear him. Again, this assumes there are no other factors like other people yelling, screaming, tripping over chairs, etc.
The original question was about Burning Hands, an area of effect spell. If Fred is in the area of effect and he doesn’t have cover, it doesn’t matter if he is invisible, in Darkness, hidden, etc. He has to make a Dex save with no modifications, full damage on failed, half on success.
Wow ... I can't believe how many times this argument comes up.
1) Darkness/fog cloud cause the heavily obscured condition. This means that the creatures are considered unseen. None of these provide any sort of cover. Cover requires an OBSTACLE that blocks or partially blocks the path to the target.
Rules:
Cover pg 196:
"Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. ..."
Vision and Light pg 183
"The most fundamental tasks of adventuring—noticing danger, finding hidden objects, hitting an enemy in combat, and targeting a spell, to name just a few—rely heavily on a character's ability to see. Darkness and other effects that obscure vision can prove a significant hindrance."
"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area."
Unseen attackers and targets: pg194
"Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding. casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss.
"When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when
the attack hits or misses."
Character try to escape notice by HIDING, lurking in darkness or casting invisibility ... however, ONLY hidden has the possibility of making your position unknown (unseen and unheard). Otherwise, you are fully aware of the general position of all opponents that you can hear (at DM discretion).
Here is the text from the Invisible status at the back of the book:
"INVISIBLE
• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
Being invisible does NOT automatically make you hidden. It does mean that attacks against you by a creature that can not see you will have disadvantage and your attacks against a creature if you can see them will have advantage.
Hiding: pg 177
An invisible creature can't be seen so it can always try to hide - this means that invisible creatures are NOT automatically hidden. They are just unseen. To hide they need to be unseen and unheard which requires taking the hide action to pass a stealth (dexterity) check against the opponent's passive perception. If they are successful then the opponent will lose track of the exact location of the target and will have to guess where they are. However, without the hide check, the location of an invisible creature or a heavily obscured one in fog or darkness is STILL known. You can still attack them and still cast spells that do not require the caster to be able to see the target.
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet."
Use passive perception in combat to determine if a stealth (dexterity) check to hide is successful
"Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score,"
2) Here is another point that most folks who don't understand the hiding and unseen attacker rules tend to miss. PHB 194-5
"When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll."
"When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."
"If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage."PHB 173
This means that when opponents are both in darkness or fog, or both are invisible, or any situation in which they can't see each other. ALL attack rolls are a straight roll. The advantage gained by your opponent not being able to see you is cancelled by the disadvantage you gain because you can't see them. This means that if someone casts a darkness spell in melee it generally has NO effect on the combat rolls unless characters had some other way to gain advantage (e.g. barbarian reckless attack will not work in darkness).
Darkness can cancel a number of status effects because advantage and disadvantage do not stack. If you can't see in magical darkness (typically this is reserved for warlock's with devils sight or shadow sorcerers casting darkness using sorcery points) then:
- you can't get advantage vs prone opponents and if someone knocks you prone they won't have advantage
- ranged attacks can be made adjacent to opponents without suffering disadvantage
- barbarians can't benefit from reckless attack
- if a character is suffering from the poisoned condition that would normally impose disadvantage then attacking in darkness counters this. It would also enable a poisoned rogue to continue making sneak attacks against targets with an enemy of the target adjacent since their attack is not subject to disadvantage.
----------------------------------------------
Anyway, the bottom line is that when a character cast invisibility or they are in darkness, their position is STILL known. They have to successfully hide vs other creatures passive perception for their position to become unknown at which time opponents have to guess where they are located.
A DM is free to run their game as they see fit but RAW ... this is how the game plays.
The key to this situation is the phrase "if the isn't in the location you targeted you automatically miss" or in this situation "if the target isn't in the area of effect you automatically miss." Burning Hands an area effect spell, it is not targeted, there for being unable to see some or all of the area of effect has no consequence. The wizard declares the desired area of effect and that is where the spell goes. The wizard knows where the villain was when the Darkness spell was cast, and can set the area of effect to include that location as long as it is within range. Th villain may or may not still be there, but that is a separate issue. the spell will hit its full area of effect (barring obstructions) and everyone within that area of effect will have to make a saving throw. The Darkness has no effect on how the Burning Hands operates. Burning Hands is not targeting a person, it is effecting an area.
And I agree that Hiding + Invisible/Darkness will be better for you, I'm with you on that. Because without Hiding, you are only 'hidden' (in the informal meaning) from one sense. 'Hide' is general enough that you can use it to disguise yourself from other senses too (a Hide roll can be used to keep a dog from sniffing you out, at least I'd rule that you can try).
My way of ruling has to do with the Unseen Targets rules, plus the fact that passive perception is not automatic granted. Distraction can keep you from being able to use it. More extreme case--Fred and Susan are fighting in a chamber behind a large, roaring waterfall, so loud they can barely hear each other shouting curses :) Fred casts darkness. I am not giving Susan a passive perception check to hear Fred moving around :) And now just in a dungeon with the sounds of combat all around them--getting a passive check isn't automatic there either.
I just don't see it that way. It's ambigious as to what the "This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see" passage applies to, passive perception is not automatically granted (specifically, distraction can cause it to not kick in), and as I mentioned above, being Hidden does do more than being invisible, but that by itself does not mean that being invisible does not do what I'm saying it does.
As I read these same rules, being invisible/in darkness does mean that the attacker has to guess where you are and therefore might miss. I think the best interpretation of the Unseen Attackers and Targets passage is that all the effects listed apply to everything in the paragraph. As I say, it's ambiguous, but not equally so. Butbeing invisble and not Hidden also does mean that finding you by actively searching (different from taking the Attack or Spell casting action) will be easier. You're right that, if the target also can't see, there's no disadvantage. But that doesn't negate the 'still have to guess where the target is' part. So Invisible and Hidden is better. But being invisible and not Hiding doesn't given everyone around the mystical power to still automatically know exactly where you are if you don't also Hide. Can their general area be known? Sure. I can gauge movement rates and conclude they are still 'over there' somewhere. But if they have a movement, I cannot know where on the map they are.
This is a good point, and appropriate to the original question. It'll be easier to guess where the target is when you say "somewhere in a 57 degree range" rather than "right there". But even then, if the target has 30 feet of movement, and you place your 15 foot burning hands cone (57 degree angle from the center) in the wrong place, you miss them.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
Yep, place that cone wrong and you miss. There is a chance of that happening even if the villain doesn't move. I have seen people not pay attention and the guess completely wrong when it's time for them to act.
The Darkness spell would seem to be a great defense against Magic Missile "hits a creature of your choice that you can see", just knowing where they are is not enough. Firebolt and Ray of Frost just require an attack roll against a creature within range. If the target was in darkness the attack roll would be made with disadvantage of course.
Attacking an unseen target gives disadvantage on the roll because you do not know exactly where they are. This is true whether you are unseen due to invisibility or darkness, or anything else. Unseen is just that, you can't see them. You might be able to hear (or smell) them and so know generally where they are or you might be completely guessing (I think there is an invisible assassin in this room over by the wardrobe) either way your attack will be at disadvantage. If you attack the area by the wardrobe and the invisible assassin is in fact under the bed you will automatically miss because you attacked a place where the target wasn't.
I would rule that Darkness and Silence stacked on the same area would allow someone an automatic success at Hiding, they are both unseen and unheard, but I would still require them to take the Hide action to do so. A creature hiding in silent darkness could still be located with perception as can any Hidden creature, but I would probably require a Search action not just passive perception.
Agreed, good explanation (and far more concise than mine :)
The darkness/silence stack would work for me, unless it was bloodhounds, or even a lot of monsters that would plausibly have good noses. Or if you'd just crawled into the castle through the sewers :D
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
I'd just like to point out:
"Attacking an unseen target gives disadvantage on the roll because you do not know exactly where they are." This is correct.
However -
The rules ALSO state that attacking a creature that can not see you gives you advantage.
The rules ALSO state that when you have advantage and disadvantage on an attack then you have neither, you roll one die, and additional conditions causing advantage or disadvantage make no difference.
In your example ... if the wizard casts a firebolt at a target in darkness where the target has not taken then hide action (and there are no extenuating circumstances preventing you from hearing them) then you still roughly know where they are. This would give you disadvantage on your attack roll. However if the target can also not see your attack then you have advantage. The two cancel and it is a straight to hit roll with the firebolt.
You are welcome to play however you wish but keep in mind that it is a house rule to use disadvantage for attacks against a target you can't see but which also can't see you. If the target had devil's sight and could see in magical darkness then the character using firebolt would have disadvantage and the character in the darkness with devils sight would have advantage.
Completely correct here. There are two factors--disadvantage/advantage, and not knowing their location. Even if you conclude like I do that darkness alone is enough to not know the location, if you're both in the darkness, the disadvantage wouldn't apply, as you say (excepting the warlock, and all that). So in the Fred/Susan example I gave, Susan wouldn't know where Fred was, but if she guessed correctly, she would role normally, no disadvantage.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)