First, sorry for the high number of question posts that I'm writing this days, but I just started playing D&D (and I started as DM) and currently I'm playing with 3 different groups of friends so I want to have a very solid grasp on the rules.
For my questions I will give an example: group X with players A, B and C ambushes group Y with players D, F, G.
All players in group X perform an stealth check and I compare their results with the passive wisdom of players Y.
Player's G passive perception is lower than any stealth check of group X (so he is surprised and losses first turn), player's A stealth check is higher than any passive perception of group Y.
When is say n "clearly see" m i mean that there is no doubt that n sees m, for example because is a bit far away behind a tree. (I know the rules state that you see an enemy just behind you)
If player G is attacked and he CAN'T clearly see the atacker, does the attacker get advantage because he is an unseen atacker? If player G is attacked and he CAN clearly see the atacker, does the attacker get advantage because he is an unseen atacker? Does player A stay stealthy if no enemy can clearly see him? If player A (been stealthy) attacks any player of team Y that can't see him clearly does he get advantage because he is an unseen atacker? The rules state that any creature that searcher another creature does an stealth vs perception check. When do I consider that team Y player's are searching for player A (considering he is still in stealth)? When they use the search action? Each turn after first turn? Each turn?
If player G is attacked and he CAN'T clearly see the atacker, does the attacker get advantage because he is an unseen atacker?
As long as the attacker stayed at least lightly obscured (either in dim light or partial cover), he will have advantage on an attack against G.
If player G is attacked and he CAN clearly see the atacker, does the attacker get advantage because he is an unseen atacker?
This is up to you (the DM). Per hiding rules: "...under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."
Does player A stay stealthy if no enemy can clearly see him?
As long as they haven't given themself away by making noise or making an attack.
If player A (been stealthy) attacks any player of team Y that can't see him clearly does he get advantage because he is an unseen atacker?
Correct.
The rules state that any creature that searcher another creature does an stealth vs perception check. When do I consider that team Y player's are searching for player A (considering he is still in stealth)? When they use the search action? Each turn after first turn? Each turn?
When you say in the third answer "As long as they haven't given themself away by making noise or making an attack." Do you men the players that none saw? I mean in this case players B and C wouldn't be in stealth for players D and E. Right? As I uderstand the rules, you are in stealth for every enemy or you aren't in stealth (excluding surprised enemies).
Keep in mind that a character that attacks is no longer hidden whether they have any cover or not.
A hidden creature that peeks around a wall, fires an arrow at a target, and ducks back is no longer hidden whether or not the attack hit the target. They may not be currently visible but they are no longer hidden and if they duck out again to make another attack (e.g. a character with the extra attack feature) then the second attack does not have advantage because they are no longer hidden.
In your example you have one party trying to ambush another.
You have all of group X make stealth checks and compare to the passive perception values of group Y. If all the stealth checks are higher than all the passive perception checks then no one in group Y has noticed the ambush.
The next step depends on the situation and DM discretion. If SOME of group Y notice some of group X then it takes a fraction of a second for that character in group Y to yell "AMBUSH" and the element of surprise could be completely lost for all of group X. The ones that are hidden remain hidden but unless group X were actually in the middle of starting their attack, there is a good chance the DM could rule that the element of surprise was lost because at least one person in group Y noticed the ambush. It takes time for group X to take aim unless they were already taking the attack action, and it takes very little time for group Y to react when the element of surprise is lost.
This is why surprise rounds can be relatively uncommon depending on how the DM runs it since one failed stealth check can prevent the element of surprise and then normal initiative rules follow.
If group X was in the midst of attacking when they were noticed, perhaps they had waited for the moment for the other party to come into sight and were not waiting for them to get to the best position, then you might have a situation where the ambush is noticed but group Y doesn't have the time to react as a whole.
In this case, characters whose passive perception was lower than ALL the stealth checks could be surprised. Anyone whose passive perception was higher than ANY of the stealth checks would not be surprised. However, anyone in group X with a stealth check higher than the passive perception of a character in group Y would be hidden if there was cover to hide behind. For example, a wood elf can hide when an area is lightly obscured by natural effects. A halfling can hide if behind a creature one size larger. Otherwise, the other creatures in the ambush in group X would need to be hidden completely behind some sort of cover that prevents them from being seen.
For example, if group Y walks around a corner and group X can be clearly seen then they can not be hidden and group Y is not surprised. On the other hand, if group Y walks around a corner and group X are all using trees or furniture or some other obstruction that provides sufficient cover then group X can be hidden if they succeeded on their stealth checks.
The next step depends on the situation and DM discretion. If SOME of group Y notice some of group X then it takes a fraction of a second for that character in group Y to yell "AMBUSH" and the element of surprise could be completely lost for all of group X. The ones that are hidden remain hidden but unless group X were actually in the middle of starting their attack, there is a good chance the DM could rule that the element of surprise was lost because at least one person in group Y noticed the ambush. It takes time for group X to take aim unless they were already taking the attack action, and it takes very little time for group Y to react when the element of surprise is lost.
This is why surprise rounds can be relatively uncommon depending on how the DM runs it since one failed stealth check can prevent the element of surprise and then normal initiative rules follow.
"Surprise rounds" mean different things to different people. In 5e, surprise is very difficult to achieve:
First, the target has to not be aware of any danger, period. That means the target has to think they are safe and not expecting an attack. To illustrate this, say a rogue is sneaking up successfully on the target, but the rogue's ally in heavy plate armor is making noise in the distance (clang clang clang), then the target can no longer be surprised by the rogue (for the purpose of the rogue assassinate ability, specifically). OR the target is hunting some kind of prey, weapons at the ready, but is not aware at all of the rogue that is hunting him... Because that target is ready for battle, he can't be 'surprised' (for the purpose of the rogue assassinate ability, specifically).
Second, initiative order dictates how the battle unfolds. In the example in quote above, if one target in an opposing group is the only one aware of danger, but rolls last on the initiative order, then the DM can't (per RAW) rule that the remainder of the targets get warned in time. That target acts on its initiative, not before.
Third, if a target is not expecting any danger per the first point above but wins initiative, that target can't act but when his turn ends, he can then use reactions and is no longer surprised (for the purpose of the rogue assassinate ability, specifically).
Fourth, the target has to act based on what it knows. Using the example of the rogue sneaking on a target and an ally in heavy plate making noise in the distance, if the rogue wants to launch a surprise attack and initiates combat, then initiative is rolled. If the target beats the rogue, then the target can fully act on its turn and run towards the ally making noise far in the distance, unknowingly foiling the rogue's intended attack. The player behind the rogue always ends up thinking the DM is metagaming, but in this scenario, it's a proper play.
Hi guys.
First, sorry for the high number of question posts that I'm writing this days, but I just started playing D&D (and I started as DM) and currently I'm playing with 3 different groups of friends so I want to have a very solid grasp on the rules.
For my questions I will give an example: group X with players A, B and C ambushes group Y with players D, F, G.
All players in group X perform an stealth check and I compare their results with the passive wisdom of players Y.
Player's G passive perception is lower than any stealth check of group X (so he is surprised and losses first turn), player's A stealth check is higher than any passive perception of group Y.
When is say n "clearly see" m i mean that there is no doubt that n sees m, for example because is a bit far away behind a tree. (I know the rules state that you see an enemy just behind you)
If player G is attacked and he CAN'T clearly see the atacker, does the attacker get advantage because he is an unseen atacker?
If player G is attacked and he CAN clearly see the atacker, does the attacker get advantage because he is an unseen atacker?
Does player A stay stealthy if no enemy can clearly see him?
If player A (been stealthy) attacks any player of team Y that can't see him clearly does he get advantage because he is an unseen atacker?
The rules state that any creature that searcher another creature does an stealth vs perception check. When do I consider that team Y player's are searching for player A (considering he is still in stealth)? When they use the search action? Each turn after first turn? Each turn?
Let's cut straight to the questions:
As long as the attacker stayed at least lightly obscured (either in dim light or partial cover), he will have advantage on an attack against G.
This is up to you (the DM). Per hiding rules: "...under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."
As long as they haven't given themself away by making noise or making an attack.
Correct.
When they use the search action, yes.
Thank you
When you say in the third answer "As long as they haven't given themself away by making noise or making an attack." Do you men the players that none saw?
I mean in this case players B and C wouldn't be in stealth for players D and E. Right? As I uderstand the rules, you are in stealth for every enemy or you aren't in stealth (excluding surprised enemies).
Keep in mind that a character that attacks is no longer hidden whether they have any cover or not.
A hidden creature that peeks around a wall, fires an arrow at a target, and ducks back is no longer hidden whether or not the attack hit the target. They may not be currently visible but they are no longer hidden and if they duck out again to make another attack (e.g. a character with the extra attack feature) then the second attack does not have advantage because they are no longer hidden.
In your example you have one party trying to ambush another.
You have all of group X make stealth checks and compare to the passive perception values of group Y. If all the stealth checks are higher than all the passive perception checks then no one in group Y has noticed the ambush.
The next step depends on the situation and DM discretion. If SOME of group Y notice some of group X then it takes a fraction of a second for that character in group Y to yell "AMBUSH" and the element of surprise could be completely lost for all of group X. The ones that are hidden remain hidden but unless group X were actually in the middle of starting their attack, there is a good chance the DM could rule that the element of surprise was lost because at least one person in group Y noticed the ambush. It takes time for group X to take aim unless they were already taking the attack action, and it takes very little time for group Y to react when the element of surprise is lost.
This is why surprise rounds can be relatively uncommon depending on how the DM runs it since one failed stealth check can prevent the element of surprise and then normal initiative rules follow.
If group X was in the midst of attacking when they were noticed, perhaps they had waited for the moment for the other party to come into sight and were not waiting for them to get to the best position, then you might have a situation where the ambush is noticed but group Y doesn't have the time to react as a whole.
In this case, characters whose passive perception was lower than ALL the stealth checks could be surprised. Anyone whose passive perception was higher than ANY of the stealth checks would not be surprised. However, anyone in group X with a stealth check higher than the passive perception of a character in group Y would be hidden if there was cover to hide behind. For example, a wood elf can hide when an area is lightly obscured by natural effects. A halfling can hide if behind a creature one size larger. Otherwise, the other creatures in the ambush in group X would need to be hidden completely behind some sort of cover that prevents them from being seen.
For example, if group Y walks around a corner and group X can be clearly seen then they can not be hidden and group Y is not surprised. On the other hand, if group Y walks around a corner and group X are all using trees or furniture or some other obstruction that provides sufficient cover then group X can be hidden if they succeeded on their stealth checks.
"Surprise rounds" mean different things to different people. In 5e, surprise is very difficult to achieve:
First, the target has to not be aware of any danger, period. That means the target has to think they are safe and not expecting an attack. To illustrate this, say a rogue is sneaking up successfully on the target, but the rogue's ally in heavy plate armor is making noise in the distance (clang clang clang), then the target can no longer be surprised by the rogue (for the purpose of the rogue assassinate ability, specifically). OR the target is hunting some kind of prey, weapons at the ready, but is not aware at all of the rogue that is hunting him... Because that target is ready for battle, he can't be 'surprised' (for the purpose of the rogue assassinate ability, specifically).
Second, initiative order dictates how the battle unfolds. In the example in quote above, if one target in an opposing group is the only one aware of danger, but rolls last on the initiative order, then the DM can't (per RAW) rule that the remainder of the targets get warned in time. That target acts on its initiative, not before.
Third, if a target is not expecting any danger per the first point above but wins initiative, that target can't act but when his turn ends, he can then use reactions and is no longer surprised (for the purpose of the rogue assassinate ability, specifically).
Fourth, the target has to act based on what it knows. Using the example of the rogue sneaking on a target and an ally in heavy plate making noise in the distance, if the rogue wants to launch a surprise attack and initiates combat, then initiative is rolled. If the target beats the rogue, then the target can fully act on its turn and run towards the ally making noise far in the distance, unknowingly foiling the rogue's intended attack. The player behind the rogue always ends up thinking the DM is metagaming, but in this scenario, it's a proper play.