If you mean Beguiling Defenses, how is immunity to being charmed useless? That's not even considering reflecting the charm back onto the creature that tried to charm you...
Its warlock 14 ability and its a 1st level spell.....: I the other abilities are good, but the last is trash compared to the the other pacts.
Dark Delirium
Starting at 14th level, you can plunge a creature into an illusory realm. As an action, choose a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you. It must make a Wisdom saving throw against your warlock spell save DC. On a failed save, it is charmed or frightened by you (your choice) for 1 minute or until your concentration is broken (as if you are concentrating on a spell). This effect ends early if the creature takes any damage.
Until this illusion ends, the creature thinks it is lost in a misty realm, the appearance of which you choose. The creature can see and hear only itself, you, and the illusion.
You must finish a short or long rest before you can use this feature again.
and I might be trolling but am still gonna run an Archfey Warlock ;P
Its warlock 14 ability and its a 1st level spell.....: I the other abilities are good, but the last is trash compared to the the other pac
Wow, you really don't have a very good handle on the game, or the language, for that matter. Like jd2319 said, "penultimate" means "next to last" or "second to last", so "level 10". And the charmed condition is not the same as the Charm Person spell. Many other effects inflict the charmed condition, and Archfey Warlocks are immune to the condition, not the spell. Many (most?) of those effects are broken by breaking the condition, so Archfey Warlocks are effectively immune to all those effects. Being immune to, for example, a Vampire's Charm ability is not trivial. The possibility to "reflect" that Charm onto the Vampire itself is even better. Dominate Person is a level 5 spell, to which Archfey Warlocks are also immune (Dominate Monster, too, which is level 8). Mass Suggestion is a level 6 spell, also immune. Geas, level 5, also immune. Etc, etc, etc...
Sorry about the confusion. I meant the ultimate ability. I do agree that being immune to charm is quite useful but I really find the final ability a bit underwhelming, especially compared to the ones for the others.
Sorry about the confusion. I meant the ultimate ability. I do agree that being immune to charm is quite useful but I really find the final ability a bit underwhelming, especially compared to the ones for the others.
It's still better than "a level 1 spell" (Charm Monster is level 4, and this ability (Dark Delirium) does more than that).
You also can't compare subclass, or class, abilities one vs the other across the same levels; you have to look at the whole. Some classes and subclasses have weaker features at certain levels, when compared to other classes or subclasses, because they have stronger features at other levels.
In any case, calling it "COMPLETELY USELESS" is needless hyperbole. It's very useful. Especially given the limited number of spell slots Warlocks get: this is like an extra spell slot dedicated to Charm Monster, a spell you'd likely want to prepare anyway.
My evaluation is pretty much the same for the Level 14 abilities, Archfey has one of the weakest, along with Undying. That being said, Dark Delirium doesn't suck. Taking a problem enemy out of the fight for a minute while you clear the field can be very useful. The biggest downside is getting it to stick. A lot of higher-end monsters are either going to have strong Wisdom saves, legendary resistances, and/or immunity to the Charmed/Frightened conditions.
Part of the problem with the Warlock patron abilities is that most of them tend to pale when compared to the Fiend. Temp HP on a kill, changeable resistance to one damage type, free d10 on one roll per rest, and a flat 10d10 psychic damage without an attack roll or save? Talk about stacked.
Part of the problem with the Warlock patron abilities is that most of them tend to pale when compared to the Fiend. Temp HP on a kill, changeable resistance to one damage type, free d10 on one roll per rest, and a flat 10d10 psychic damage without an attack roll or save? Talk about stacked.
This is true. Although, the Archfey pact gets spells that are, on balance, more powerful or all-around useful in return. I think the devs did something right here by considering both themes and mechanics when selecting abilities. The Archfey's abilities cluster around taking one or monsters out of the fight without necessarily killing them. The Fiend pact is about direct offense, and the GOOlock is about mindgame shenanigans. Each is useful in its own way and can have significant impacts on the direction of the campaign.
Part of the problem with the Warlock patron abilities is that most of them tend to pale when compared to the Fiend. Temp HP on a kill, changeable resistance to one damage type, free d10 on one roll per rest, and a flat 10d10 psychic damage without an attack roll or save? Talk about stacked.
This is true. Although, the Archfey pact gets spells that are, on balance, more powerful or all-around useful in return. I think the devs did something right here by considering both themes and mechanics when selecting abilities. The Archfey's abilities cluster around taking one or monsters out of the fight without necessarily killing them. The Fiend pact is about direct offense, and the GOOlock is about mindgame shenanigans. Each is useful in its own way and can have significant impacts on the direction of the campaign.
Lore is one of the biggest reasons why Archfey is my favorite, plus I'm a HUGE Dresden Files fan :) As for their spell selection, I love it for Faerie Fire alone, that spell can WRECK an encounter. And Greater Invisibility? Sweeeeeet.
I have a warlock whose arch fey "master" is his grandmother. He has never been to her court because he like most mortals would be vulnerable to the games the Fey play with charm.
Guess what it means to him to gain that ablity.. he can stand in court in service to his arch-duchess.
Or even start his own lesser court and stand as lord in his own right.
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Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
None of the Patron abilities are "useless", but some are definitely more situational than others. That being said, there are more reasons than pure mechanics when it comes to choosing which type of Patron you want.
I mean... I guess they all can't be as good as The Fiend lol. Either way, The Archfey really does have some incredible utility, and while it might not be what you're looking for for an ultimate ability, Misty Escape and Beguiling Defenses are pretty damn strong depending on the circumstance. Lore-wise I like it, but I'd still roll with The Fiend or Great Old One if I were looking for more substance.
There's also the roleplaying side of things. I get these discussions, I really do, but you can run a perfectly good campaign without min-maxing your character and its abilities. I am right now in an FRE-campaign where most of our characters are focused on roleplaying above rollplaying and the DM is wise enough to balance the encounters to the group. My character happens to be an elderly half elven Warlock with the Arch Fey patron and I have deliberately, while all the time speaking to my GM, chosen to downplay any offence at all. We just hit lvl 14 and I for one am THRILLED at the ability because it plays so well into my character who is ideologically speaking a druid/warlock mix. He loves nature and natural things and actually loathes things that are not natural to the world. Demons, devils, outsiders, even angels are unnatural to him and do not belong in this world. Having that said he, as a good character, of course tolerate angels above evil outsiders, but at the core he strongly opposes all of them interfering in mortal affairs. His relationship with the Fey is equally complicated since it is mostly driven by a conviction that the Fey meddle too much in the affairs of mortals and he seeks to understand the Fey and so lives a life where he is a servant but also a spy of sorts.
Anyway, without getting too much into the backstory, my point is that this ability is ******* perfect for a character who wishes to be more or less a pacifist, but still useful in a fight. You can render an opponent more or less useless without being the dick who blasts his brains out with a lightningbolt. It'll hardly ever work on a boss type, but you can definitely put at pesky damage dealer or tank out of action for long enough to really make a difference.
I do have one question though. The description states that:
"On a failed save, it is charmed or frightened by you (your choice) for 1 minute or until your concentration is broken (as if you are concentrating on a spell). This effect ends early if the creature takes any damage."
Does that actually mean that it is the 1 concentration you can keep, so no "real" concentration spells while this lasts, or just that it is treated the same way in how it breaks. For a lvl 14 ability I would like to interpret it so that you can actually have this and a concentration spell active at the same time, but they might be broken in the same way. I suspect this is positive thinking, but if so it would make this ability much more useful for both role- and rollplaying.
"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in Myth Drannor. We shall fight over the fields and treetops. We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength everywhere. We shall defend our forest, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight in the glades, we shall fight in the deep forest. We shall fight in the woods and in the streets. We shall fight on the hills. We shall never surrender!"
No, the language makes it equivalent to a concentration spell so it cannot coexist with another one. That said, this ability is evocative as all hell. The idea of trapping someone in a mad dream where they can only perceive you is just so cool.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
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Is COMPLETELY USELESS! Discuss...
Wherever you go...
There you are...
Wow, great post. :|
If you mean Beguiling Defenses, how is immunity to being charmed useless? That's not even considering reflecting the charm back onto the creature that tried to charm you...
I've half a mind to flag the post as trolling...
It's not useless, but I'd call it neck & neck with Undying Nature for the weakest Warlock 10 ability.
Its warlock 14 ability and its a 1st level spell.....: I the other abilities are good, but the last is trash compared to the the other pacts.
Dark Delirium
Starting at 14th level, you can plunge a creature into an illusory realm. As an action, choose a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you. It must make a Wisdom saving throw against your warlock spell save DC. On a failed save, it is charmed or frightened by you (your choice) for 1 minute or until your concentration is broken (as if you are concentrating on a spell). This effect ends early if the creature takes any damage.
Until this illusion ends, the creature thinks it is lost in a misty realm, the appearance of which you choose. The creature can see and hear only itself, you, and the illusion.
You must finish a short or long rest before you can use this feature again.
and I might be trolling but am still gonna run an Archfey Warlock ;P
Wherever you go...
There you are...
Penultimate means second to last, Level 10 not 14 :)
Wow, you really don't have a very good handle on the game, or the language, for that matter. Like jd2319 said, "penultimate" means "next to last" or "second to last", so "level 10". And the charmed condition is not the same as the Charm Person spell. Many other effects inflict the charmed condition, and Archfey Warlocks are immune to the condition, not the spell. Many (most?) of those effects are broken by breaking the condition, so Archfey Warlocks are effectively immune to all those effects. Being immune to, for example, a Vampire's Charm ability is not trivial. The possibility to "reflect" that Charm onto the Vampire itself is even better. Dominate Person is a level 5 spell, to which Archfey Warlocks are also immune (Dominate Monster, too, which is level 8). Mass Suggestion is a level 6 spell, also immune. Geas, level 5, also immune. Etc, etc, etc...
Thanks. My error :)
Wherever you go...
There you are...
Sorry about the confusion. I meant the ultimate ability. I do agree that being immune to charm is quite useful but I really find the final ability a bit underwhelming, especially compared to the ones for the others.
Wherever you go...
There you are...
It's still better than "a level 1 spell" (Charm Monster is level 4, and this ability (Dark Delirium) does more than that).
You also can't compare subclass, or class, abilities one vs the other across the same levels; you have to look at the whole. Some classes and subclasses have weaker features at certain levels, when compared to other classes or subclasses, because they have stronger features at other levels.
In any case, calling it "COMPLETELY USELESS" is needless hyperbole. It's very useful. Especially given the limited number of spell slots Warlocks get: this is like an extra spell slot dedicated to Charm Monster, a spell you'd likely want to prepare anyway.
Also a key point is that Dark Delirium doesn't make them roll their save at advantage if you're fighting them. Charm Monster does.
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My evaluation is pretty much the same for the Level 14 abilities, Archfey has one of the weakest, along with Undying. That being said, Dark Delirium doesn't suck. Taking a problem enemy out of the fight for a minute while you clear the field can be very useful. The biggest downside is getting it to stick. A lot of higher-end monsters are either going to have strong Wisdom saves, legendary resistances, and/or immunity to the Charmed/Frightened conditions.
Part of the problem with the Warlock patron abilities is that most of them tend to pale when compared to the Fiend. Temp HP on a kill, changeable resistance to one damage type, free d10 on one roll per rest, and a flat 10d10 psychic damage without an attack roll or save? Talk about stacked.
This is true. Although, the Archfey pact gets spells that are, on balance, more powerful or all-around useful in return. I think the devs did something right here by considering both themes and mechanics when selecting abilities. The Archfey's abilities cluster around taking one or monsters out of the fight without necessarily killing them. The Fiend pact is about direct offense, and the GOOlock is about mindgame shenanigans. Each is useful in its own way and can have significant impacts on the direction of the campaign.
Lore is one of the biggest reasons why Archfey is my favorite, plus I'm a HUGE Dresden Files fan :) As for their spell selection, I love it for Faerie Fire alone, that spell can WRECK an encounter. And Greater Invisibility? Sweeeeeet.
I have a warlock whose arch fey "master" is his grandmother. He has never been to her court because he like most mortals would be vulnerable to the games the Fey play with charm.
Guess what it means to him to gain that ablity.. he can stand in court in service to his arch-duchess.
Or even start his own lesser court and stand as lord in his own right.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
I believe it can be useless, but that is if you never put the character in an environment where it is used.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
None of the Patron abilities are "useless", but some are definitely more situational than others. That being said, there are more reasons than pure mechanics when it comes to choosing which type of Patron you want.
I mean... I guess they all can't be as good as The Fiend lol.
Either way, The Archfey really does have some incredible utility, and while it might not be what you're looking for for an ultimate ability, Misty Escape and Beguiling Defenses are pretty damn strong depending on the circumstance. Lore-wise I like it, but I'd still roll with The Fiend or Great Old One if I were looking for more substance.
There's also the roleplaying side of things. I get these discussions, I really do, but you can run a perfectly good campaign without min-maxing your character and its abilities. I am right now in an FRE-campaign where most of our characters are focused on roleplaying above rollplaying and the DM is wise enough to balance the encounters to the group. My character happens to be an elderly half elven Warlock with the Arch Fey patron and I have deliberately, while all the time speaking to my GM, chosen to downplay any offence at all. We just hit lvl 14 and I for one am THRILLED at the ability because it plays so well into my character who is ideologically speaking a druid/warlock mix. He loves nature and natural things and actually loathes things that are not natural to the world. Demons, devils, outsiders, even angels are unnatural to him and do not belong in this world. Having that said he, as a good character, of course tolerate angels above evil outsiders, but at the core he strongly opposes all of them interfering in mortal affairs. His relationship with the Fey is equally complicated since it is mostly driven by a conviction that the Fey meddle too much in the affairs of mortals and he seeks to understand the Fey and so lives a life where he is a servant but also a spy of sorts.
Anyway, without getting too much into the backstory, my point is that this ability is ******* perfect for a character who wishes to be more or less a pacifist, but still useful in a fight. You can render an opponent more or less useless without being the dick who blasts his brains out with a lightningbolt. It'll hardly ever work on a boss type, but you can definitely put at pesky damage dealer or tank out of action for long enough to really make a difference.
I do have one question though. The description states that:
"On a failed save, it is charmed or frightened by you
(your choice) for 1 minute or until your concentration
is broken (as if you are concentrating on a spell). This
effect ends early if the creature takes any damage."
Does that actually mean that it is the 1 concentration you can keep, so no "real" concentration spells while this lasts, or just that it is treated the same way in how it breaks. For a lvl 14 ability I would like to interpret it so that you can actually have this and a concentration spell active at the same time, but they might be broken in the same way. I suspect this is positive thinking, but if so it would make this ability much more useful for both role- and rollplaying.
"We shall go on to the end.
We shall fight in Myth Drannor.
We shall fight over the fields and treetops.
We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength everywhere.
We shall defend our forest, whatever the cost may be.
We shall fight in the glades, we shall fight in the deep forest.
We shall fight in the woods and in the streets.
We shall fight on the hills.
We shall never surrender!"
No, the language makes it equivalent to a concentration spell so it cannot coexist with another one. That said, this ability is evocative as all hell. The idea of trapping someone in a mad dream where they can only perceive you is just so cool.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!