Today another player at my table asked our DM if a caster could use sign language as the verbal component of their spell. It thus ensued a conversation about verbal, somatic and material components for spells and how it just wouldn't work if you had to say an incantation and the person asking looked rather deflated by our collective answer.
But now that I have removed myself from the discussion it got me to thinking, what if your caster was deaf? Would they just only be able to cast spells that truly did not have any verbal component to the spell. That seems harsh, and I feel like there should be more to it than that.
I think we were discussing the specifics of someone being deaf and no ability to speak at all. Would they be able to use sign language as the "verbal" part. Which as far as I am aware is just a flat No. No voice, no verbal. done.
But the player at the table was very disheartened by this. Pretty sure that sign language is very near and dear to this player, and I just feel like we are letting them down as a player but flat out refusing to even entertain the idea or even coming up with a home brew idea to accommodate something like that.
I mean since we’re talking about a universe where unicorns are real I don’t see why they couldn’t. Especially if the idea seems to be dear to the player.
Maybe the wizard would have learn an alternative way to cast a spell using sign language instead of verbal performance (replacing Verbal by Somatic for the spells, and if need be say it takes more time to cast or something like that). Or maybe they could have a specific object that they could use (like a wand or a music box or even a pet bird, whatever you want really) that they use since the “verbal” part of spell casting seems to be about “pitch and resonance”.
I hope you’ll find a solution, especially if your player seems to care about it!
Okay, I think that is honestly what I wanted to hear to help get the creative juices flowing. I think I was just honestly stumped on how to get around something like that. I am seeing the potential for some character ideas now.
It also makes me wonder how a race like the Kenku get around some of the verbal components of spells. I know that they have the mimicry ability, but does that mean they have to have heard someone say the verbal part of the spell before in order to cast it?
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
The pattern of the sound (not the words themselves) are the listed requirements for spell casting. As such, sign language wouldn't trigger a verbal component.
Now, would I homebrew or workaround a method for the sake of happiness at my table? Of course. Even considering they were a level whatever wizard alone would be enough to assume they completed whatever training required to manage casting those spells. No sense to dwell on unpleasantness - get back to having fun and enjoy the game in the ways your table sees fit.
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
The pattern of the sound (not the words themselves) are the listed requirements for spell casting. As such, sign language wouldn't trigger a verbal component.
Now, would I homebrew or workaround a method for the sake of happiness at my table? Of course. Even considering they were a level whatever wizard alone would be enough to assume they completed whatever training required to manage casting those spells. No sense to dwell on unpleasantness - get back to having fun and enjoy the game in the ways your table sees fit.
I agree, which is why I am pursuing a work around for them.
I thought it was an honestly interesting question that the player posed, and the table kinda swatted them down and basically told them they were wrong. Technically speaking it is wrong, but that just doesn't seem right to me personally. I know that ultimately it is up to our DM to decide if he is okay with something like that in our game.
Just nice to have representation in the game for some people.
Sadly the Somatic component is already like signing anyways. Plus some spells like silence would become useless when it's main role is to force casters to move or the have to stop casting.
It just seems very reductive for a place where magic exist that said magic can only exist in one way... And even if it would just mean more Somatic, then perhaps it takes longer to cast or something else is needed to cast said spell. And yes Silence wouldn’t do much but think of the fact that having their hands grappled or anything like that would most likely be a huge problem so there’s more than one way to annoy a wizard haha.
I’m all with you, you’ll have to see with your DM and hopefully y’all can work with something a little creative - after all anyone should feel happy and represented.
Hmm. This is definitely something to think about then with silence and such having effect on casters abilities.
I think if we were to go down the route of having a player with a music box or a bird like Aarontheroad suggested, then you would still be subject to the effects of silence if you were in its range because it would silence the sound for the item being used for the "verbal" component.
Plus the player would always be suffering from the Deafened condition, so there are inherit disadvantages to a character like that.
Yeah, that seems like an obvious thing to home brew.
Here’s two ways I think would work, there are probably more.
One way: remember that magic incantations aren’t really words. While a wizard that can hear can learn then the same way most people learn words, a wizard that is deaf can learn how to make the right sounds by sensing the magic effect rather than by hearing them. (Net effect: mechanically, a deaf wizard casts spells exactly the same way a hearing wizard does.)
Alternate way: a deaf wizard can make the requisite sounds of power with their hands, such as by snapping, clapping, it using sound-producing tools they have in their component pouch (Net effect: wizard probably has to choose a component pouch over an arcane focus)
Neither of these would lead to any changes in mechanics, since spells would still be audible.
You could make spells work with sign language too! The is would have an effect that some spells become silent to cast and it might be possible to be more stealthy as a wizard than otherwise.
I just don't think this character concept works. A mute wizard is like a paraplegic monk, it just fully lacks an ability it would need to effectively be that adventuring class. Not to say that they couldn't become that class, but they would be better at a different class.
I think ultimately we would be looking for something that didn't change the core mechanics for the game. Not looking to break the game with a stealth wizard who can perform spells silently. Because that in my opinion that really steps in on the metamagic subtle spell, which seems a bit overpowered to have available all of the time.
I just don't think this character concept works. A mute wizard is like a paraplegic monk, it just fully lacks an ability it would need to effectively be that adventuring class. Not to say that they couldn't become that class, but they would be better at a different class.
I never specifically stated a wizard, was assumed in the conversation. There are other spell casters out there. Personally I think it would fit with a Sorcerer who had innate magic powers from birth, just so happens that they are deaf and cannot speak as well.
Allowing sign language to work for a verbal component of a spell, basically gives the caster a version of the subtle spell metamagic not a full version as subtle removes even somantic components. It in all honesty sounds like someone trying to game the game by lets give my caster a disadvantage that allows me to do something others folks cannot.
Allowing sign language to work for a verbal component of a spell, basically gives the caster a version of the subtle spell metamagic not a full version as subtle removes even somantic components. It in all honesty sounds like someone trying to game the game by lets give my caster a disadvantage that allows me to do something others folks cannot.
I think I am more so looking at a work around to keep the core mechanics the same, just slightly bend the rules to accommodate the player. I know for sure that the player in question was not asking about it as a way to try and "game the game" They were legitimately curious if it would work. We informed them of the rules and they understood, but were disheartened by the fact there wasn't a rule already in place to address a character like that.
Maybe a special familiar of some sort that is so completely and utterly linked to the caster it has to stay in a pocket whilst casting and it performs to verbal component for the wizard. I'd make it immune to damage as if it went down the wizard wouldn't be able to re-summon it with the standard spell.
I'd suggest this creature could also hear for the wizard whilst in said pocket so the wizard doesn't suffer the mechanical affects of "Deafened" that combined with creative use of prestidigitation to write in air the the directly in front of you would mean that he could communicate with non sign language users.
This all work if you want to completely remove mechanical affects of the wizard deafness.
Edit: A level 3 Human variant Sorcerer could have take the ritual caster and the Subtle metamagic option meaning they could cast find familiar with just the 10g of charcoal and incense.
Maybe a special familiar of some sort that is so completely and utterly linked to the caster it has to stay in a pocket whilst casting and it performs to verbal component for the wizard. I'd make it immune to damage as if it went down the wizard wouldn't be able to re-summon it with the standard spell.
I'd suggest this creature could also hear for the wizard whilst in said pocket so the wizard doesn't suffer the mechanical affects of "Deafened" that combined with creative use of prestidigitation to write in air the the directly in front of you would mean that he could communicate with non sign language users.
This all work if you want to completely remove mechanical affects of the wizard deafness.
Edit: A level 3 Human variant Sorcerer could have take the ritual caster and the Subtle metamagic option meaning they could cast find familiar with just the 10g of charcoal and incense.
I thought from the get go that a sorcerer would be the best fit for a character like this. Innate magic that you figure out how to manipulate and utilize with the tools at your disposal. I really love the idea that you could use a bird familiar to sing the verbal components of your spells. Maybe even limiting the access to spells because they just might be beyond your capabilities until you can figure out a work around.
I suppose there is always the option of just not casting spells with a verbal component. It severely narrows down your perspective list of spells that you could potentially learn, but it gives you a sense that this is a truly unique character. Not just a min maxed version of the best that character could be. More so RP flavour for a character, but that could be a lot of fun to create a character like that.
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Today another player at my table asked our DM if a caster could use sign language as the verbal component of their spell. It thus ensued a conversation about verbal, somatic and material components for spells and how it just wouldn't work if you had to say an incantation and the person asking looked rather deflated by our collective answer.
But now that I have removed myself from the discussion it got me to thinking, what if your caster was deaf? Would they just only be able to cast spells that truly did not have any verbal component to the spell. That seems harsh, and I feel like there should be more to it than that.
Thoughts?
Even if they were deaf, as long as they aren't mute they can perform the verbal component, but they may have difficulty learning those spell.
I think we were discussing the specifics of someone being deaf and no ability to speak at all. Would they be able to use sign language as the "verbal" part. Which as far as I am aware is just a flat No. No voice, no verbal. done.
But the player at the table was very disheartened by this. Pretty sure that sign language is very near and dear to this player, and I just feel like we are letting them down as a player but flat out refusing to even entertain the idea or even coming up with a home brew idea to accommodate something like that.
I mean since we’re talking about a universe where unicorns are real I don’t see why they couldn’t. Especially if the idea seems to be dear to the player.
Maybe the wizard would have learn an alternative way to cast a spell using sign language instead of verbal performance (replacing Verbal by Somatic for the spells, and if need be say it takes more time to cast or something like that). Or maybe they could have a specific object that they could use (like a wand or a music box or even a pet bird, whatever you want really) that they use since the “verbal” part of spell casting seems to be about “pitch and resonance”.
I hope you’ll find a solution, especially if your player seems to care about it!
Okay, I think that is honestly what I wanted to hear to help get the creative juices flowing. I think I was just honestly stumped on how to get around something like that. I am seeing the potential for some character ideas now.
It also makes me wonder how a race like the Kenku get around some of the verbal components of spells. I know that they have the mimicry ability, but does that mean they have to have heard someone say the verbal part of the spell before in order to cast it?
As written:
The pattern of the sound (not the words themselves) are the listed requirements for spell casting. As such, sign language wouldn't trigger a verbal component.
Now, would I homebrew or workaround a method for the sake of happiness at my table? Of course. Even considering they were a level whatever wizard alone would be enough to assume they completed whatever training required to manage casting those spells. No sense to dwell on unpleasantness - get back to having fun and enjoy the game in the ways your table sees fit.
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I agree, which is why I am pursuing a work around for them.
I thought it was an honestly interesting question that the player posed, and the table kinda swatted them down and basically told them they were wrong. Technically speaking it is wrong, but that just doesn't seem right to me personally. I know that ultimately it is up to our DM to decide if he is okay with something like that in our game.
Just nice to have representation in the game for some people.
Sadly the Somatic component is already like signing anyways. Plus some spells like silence would become useless when it's main role is to force casters to move or the have to stop casting.
It just seems very reductive for a place where magic exist that said magic can only exist in one way... And even if it would just mean more Somatic, then perhaps it takes longer to cast or something else is needed to cast said spell. And yes Silence wouldn’t do much but think of the fact that having their hands grappled or anything like that would most likely be a huge problem so there’s more than one way to annoy a wizard haha.
I’m all with you, you’ll have to see with your DM and hopefully y’all can work with something a little creative - after all anyone should feel happy and represented.
Hmm. This is definitely something to think about then with silence and such having effect on casters abilities.
I think if we were to go down the route of having a player with a music box or a bird like Aarontheroad suggested, then you would still be subject to the effects of silence if you were in its range because it would silence the sound for the item being used for the "verbal" component.
Plus the player would always be suffering from the Deafened condition, so there are inherit disadvantages to a character like that.
Yeah, that seems like an obvious thing to home brew.
Here’s two ways I think would work, there are probably more.
One way: remember that magic incantations aren’t really words. While a wizard that can hear can learn then the same way most people learn words, a wizard that is deaf can learn how to make the right sounds by sensing the magic effect rather than by hearing them. (Net effect: mechanically, a deaf wizard casts spells exactly the same way a hearing wizard does.)
Alternate way: a deaf wizard can make the requisite sounds of power with their hands, such as by snapping, clapping, it using sound-producing tools they have in their component pouch (Net effect: wizard probably has to choose a component pouch over an arcane focus)
Neither of these would lead to any changes in mechanics, since spells would still be audible.
You could make spells work with sign language too! The is would have an effect that some spells become silent to cast and it might be possible to be more stealthy as a wizard than otherwise.
I just don't think this character concept works. A mute wizard is like a paraplegic monk, it just fully lacks an ability it would need to effectively be that adventuring class. Not to say that they couldn't become that class, but they would be better at a different class.
It is almost as if there is some entity that sets restrictions and rules to magic, like some kind of god of magic or something.
I think ultimately we would be looking for something that didn't change the core mechanics for the game. Not looking to break the game with a stealth wizard who can perform spells silently. Because that in my opinion that really steps in on the metamagic subtle spell, which seems a bit overpowered to have available all of the time.
I never specifically stated a wizard, was assumed in the conversation. There are other spell casters out there. Personally I think it would fit with a Sorcerer who had innate magic powers from birth, just so happens that they are deaf and cannot speak as well.
Allowing sign language to work for a verbal component of a spell, basically gives the caster a version of the subtle spell metamagic not a full version as subtle removes even somantic components. It in all honesty sounds like someone trying to game the game by lets give my caster a disadvantage that allows me to do something others folks cannot.
I think I am more so looking at a work around to keep the core mechanics the same, just slightly bend the rules to accommodate the player. I know for sure that the player in question was not asking about it as a way to try and "game the game" They were legitimately curious if it would work. We informed them of the rules and they understood, but were disheartened by the fact there wasn't a rule already in place to address a character like that.
Maybe a special familiar of some sort that is so completely and utterly linked to the caster it has to stay in a pocket whilst casting and it performs to verbal component for the wizard. I'd make it immune to damage as if it went down the wizard wouldn't be able to re-summon it with the standard spell.
I'd suggest this creature could also hear for the wizard whilst in said pocket so the wizard doesn't suffer the mechanical affects of "Deafened" that combined with creative use of prestidigitation to write in air the the directly in front of you would mean that he could communicate with non sign language users.
This all work if you want to completely remove mechanical affects of the wizard deafness.
Edit: A level 3 Human variant Sorcerer could have take the ritual caster and the Subtle metamagic option meaning they could cast find familiar with just the 10g of charcoal and incense.
I thought from the get go that a sorcerer would be the best fit for a character like this. Innate magic that you figure out how to manipulate and utilize with the tools at your disposal. I really love the idea that you could use a bird familiar to sing the verbal components of your spells. Maybe even limiting the access to spells because they just might be beyond your capabilities until you can figure out a work around.
I suppose there is always the option of just not casting spells with a verbal component. It severely narrows down your perspective list of spells that you could potentially learn, but it gives you a sense that this is a truly unique character. Not just a min maxed version of the best that character could be. More so RP flavour for a character, but that could be a lot of fun to create a character like that.