I have a Changeling Sorcerer who is an entertainer (think Bard but not) - she plays the Viol and Flute a lot and as part of her Divergent Persona she's got expertise in the Viol when she is a particular person. She also has standard proficiency in Performance (as well all the other other Charisma checks).
Now let's say she's gone into a tavern or inn and decides to play some music for tips or whatever - and uses her Viol - and a roll is required. What would the usual DM's options be to request a check for it. Would they ask for Performance and I'd be restricted to proficiency or would they ask for the tool/instrument check which would allow expertise - or would it be Performance but because it uses the Viol it gets expertise?
I'm basically just trying to wonder if I'm ever going to be able to expect to get any use out of the expertise of Divergent Persona or whether I'll be better off picking something else.
I would specifically request the expertise with the Viol when she is playing that instrument while utilizing her Divergent Persona, in light of the fact that the persona utilizing the tool is in fact utilizing it with such expertise, unlike if it were just using a Harp, or Dulcimer with which they're only proficient with. The standard proficiency for Performance would be saved in times when the Divergent Persona, in this instance, is not utilizing the Viol, and perhaps their Flute, or another instrument or tool they have not garnered expertise with.
Xanathar's says you should "consider" allowing making the roll with advantage when you have proficiency in both the skill and tool. I'd allow making the roll with expertise and advantage if the character has dumped that many resources into viol performance.
Unfortunately, there are not really any rules for skill checks with tools (XGtE has a few, but not many, and none that apply here). I would let you use the higher bonus, but that is a personal ruling.
Tools are one of the things I wish they made more rules for, especially since they are making more and more ways to get expertise in tools and the non-optional rules barely acknowledge tool checks (basically just thief's tools).
The rules on tools just say that if you're proficient with a tool, you can add proficiency bonus to a check made using that tool.
I'd rule it that either way it's still a Performance check, but if you're using the Divergent Persona and your viol, then you get to consider the check with expertise. If not, you make the check with regular proficiency. Basically, what StylesStriker said.
In general, I’d have a tool proficiency supersede a skill proficiency since tools are more specific. You only ever add your proficiency bonus once, so without expertise it truly doesn’t matter.
I think if a PC had expertise in one but not the other, I’d call for whichever benefits the player more and then narrate it differently accordingly (if it’s the instrument, play up the virtuosic nature of the act, if it’s performance, emphasize how well the PC seems to understand the audience and what they want out of the act, etc etc).
Thanks for the replies - I'll definitely keep her as-is then. Happy the consensus is in favour of using expertise over proficiency as long as it's relevant - I won't have to fiddle any details of her backstory.
I have a Changeling Sorcerer who is an entertainer (think Bard but not) - she plays the Viol and Flute a lot and as part of her Divergent Persona she's got expertise in the Viol when she is a particular person. She also has standard proficiency in Performance (as well all the other other Charisma checks).
Now let's say she's gone into a tavern or inn and decides to play some music for tips or whatever - and uses her Viol - and a roll is required. What would the usual DM's options be to request a check for it. Would they ask for Performance and I'd be restricted to proficiency or would they ask for the tool/instrument check which would allow expertise - or would it be Performance but because it uses the Viol it gets expertise?
I'm basically just trying to wonder if I'm ever going to be able to expect to get any use out of the expertise of Divergent Persona or whether I'll be better off picking something else.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I would specifically request the expertise with the Viol when she is playing that instrument while utilizing her Divergent Persona, in light of the fact that the persona utilizing the tool is in fact utilizing it with such expertise, unlike if it were just using a Harp, or Dulcimer with which they're only proficient with. The standard proficiency for Performance would be saved in times when the Divergent Persona, in this instance, is not utilizing the Viol, and perhaps their Flute, or another instrument or tool they have not garnered expertise with.
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Xanathar's says you should "consider" allowing making the roll with advantage when you have proficiency in both the skill and tool. I'd allow making the roll with expertise and advantage if the character has dumped that many resources into viol performance.
Unfortunately, there are not really any rules for skill checks with tools (XGtE has a few, but not many, and none that apply here). I would let you use the higher bonus, but that is a personal ruling.
Tools are one of the things I wish they made more rules for, especially since they are making more and more ways to get expertise in tools and the non-optional rules barely acknowledge tool checks (basically just thief's tools).
The rules on tools just say that if you're proficient with a tool, you can add proficiency bonus to a check made using that tool.
I'd rule it that either way it's still a Performance check, but if you're using the Divergent Persona and your viol, then you get to consider the check with expertise. If not, you make the check with regular proficiency. Basically, what StylesStriker said.
In general, I’d have a tool proficiency supersede a skill proficiency since tools are more specific. You only ever add your proficiency bonus once, so without expertise it truly doesn’t matter.
I think if a PC had expertise in one but not the other, I’d call for whichever benefits the player more and then narrate it differently accordingly (if it’s the instrument, play up the virtuosic nature of the act, if it’s performance, emphasize how well the PC seems to understand the audience and what they want out of the act, etc etc).
Thanks for the replies - I'll definitely keep her as-is then. Happy the consensus is in favour of using expertise over proficiency as long as it's relevant - I won't have to fiddle any details of her backstory.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).