I've just gotten around to reading the chapter on Kobolds in Volos guide and I really loved the way they were described (the artwork really helped as well) and I'm thinking of using them more thoroughly in my coming adventures. But I just can't grasp that they are meant to be lawful evil. Lawful, yes, I can see that as they are part of a community and their entire life seem to revolve around this. But evil? I see them trying to keep to themselves, they don't seem to wage wars, invade other peoples lands or even attack travellers. The entire chapter seem to be one big keep out and here be traps. I just can't see how this make them evil. And then I read that they are "fundamentally selfish", making them evil. After reading their chapter I find them everything but selfish, ready to even give up their lives to defend their lair and community. Sure, they don't have much of an emotional connection to their fellow kobolds... but I feel I miss out on something here.
Mind, I haven't played much DnD so far so I might have missed something or even misunderstood how alignments are meant to work, but I'd be grateful if someone could explain how their description fits with evil.
I actually had a discussion at length a while ago with a friend about Good(tm) and Evil(tm) in D&D, and essentially what we could come to agreement on is that not all creatures that are listed as good or evil necessarily need to be that way. Now there are some I would argue are still evil by nature, like demons, but honestly if you want to make your own cultures and personalities for a race that vary from the books, by all means! For the most part you can use books like Volo's as guidelines and idea starters, change up what you don't like, and make a world that makes sense to you.
I will say that I've noticed that Evil(tm) is mostly geared as selfish in terms of D&D alignments go, but evil also has the connotations of hostile, maniacal, and out to cause destruction. That's all well in good in some cases, but I do agree that based on what's in Volo's kobolds aren't entirely selfish, and definitely not the latter definition of Evil(tm). It's more that they are into having small treasure hoards of their own, but they are not immune to forming alliances with other humanoids (and not just evil ones). I like this section from Volo's about this:
"Some human communities hire kobolds to dig their sewer tunnels, paying them with food and tools the kobolds wouldn’t have access to on their own. If they are treated well and left alone to do the job, the kobolds work industriously and build a network of passages beneath the streets, connecting them to a nearby waterway and greatly improving the town’s sanitation. If the kobolds like the area and aren’t mistreated by the humans, they might build a warren and make a permanent home there, while continuing to expand the town’s sewers as the community grows."
This highlights that if treated well kobolds may not be so "evil" and can coexist within humanoid society if given a chance. Much more interesting than little scaly gremlins out to getcha!
Basically I'd boil it down to this: you can make good, evil, and the middle ground whatever you want. The people that wrote all these books and suppliments for D&D have already put in a lot of work so that people can have all these races and creatures built and ready to use, but part of the beauty I find in D&D is that you can build a world how you see fit. You can take the books to heart, or you can use them as "more of guidelines than actual rules." (Barbosa)
The game designers have been gradually de-emphasizing and deprioritizing alignment through the decades as more and more people start to question the mindset behind saying "this race is inherently evil" - and that's for the best, IMO. At this point it seems that alignment is almost a vestigial feature, and the only reason they haven't abolished it completely is because they fear backlash from the old guard.
Which is a long way of saying the kobolds are listed as "evil" because that's what they were listed as in previous editions, and for no other reason.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We're the perfect combination of expendable and unkillable!"
Alignment is inherently rather subjective and vague. It is mostly used to give readers a mindset of their demeanor or mindset. Evil basically just means generally harmful toward others.
Kobolds tend to steal and/or not care about other races. They also tend to be servants of any race stronger than them (usually reptilian) with a particular goal of serving a true Dragon (usually an evil chromatic Dragon).
Thanks for the input. My main gripe was really that the description of the kobolds never struck me as evil at all, but now I think I have a new understanding. I think I'll just let them be selfish and "evil" in my games, but more from a community perspective than an individual. That way I think I'll be able to keep the alignment (for what it's worth) and sty true to the description. Those kobolds very quickly became my favourite monster race. It's a pity the playable race doesn't represent them that much... ^^
Do kobolds help each other or do they only act in the best interests of the community? If a comrade is wounded in battle does the kobold leave them to die or administer a coup de grace because they are a waste of resources for the community or do they rescue them and try to nurse them back to health? If there is excess food or resources in the community, do kobolds share or does whoever is strongest get to take the extra (making sure that the weakest members are at least taken care of first?).
Lawful might put the community above the individual when survival or the betterment of the community is involved. Evil might reflect that on an individual level kobolds do not play nice with each other.
In addition, when kobolds are convinced to interact in the wider world, perhaps through alliances (willing or not) with bugbears, hobgoblins, ogres and other monstrous races, do kobolds treat the creatures they meet fairly? Or do they just try to slaughter them because they aren't kobolds?
Perhaps contrast this with the typical interactions of dwarves, elves, or humans interacting with the other species in the world. There are stereotypes in play here that you need to be aware of and individuals of a species may not behave the same as the average (so you can have good kobolds and evil elves). However, in general, on the basis of how kobolds may be perceived to interact on an individual basis most of the time, their individuals (and by extension culture) could be labeled as evil.
Finally, it is your game world, kobolds can be whatever you wish in your world and if you have kobolds treat each other fairly most of the time then they are likely more neutral than evil. If kobolds actively help each other, treat each other kinds, defend individuals, make sacrifices for individuals (rather than the community), then in your world they might even be more good than neutral.
One way to look at alignment, and I am not saying it is either correct or the only way, is to consider lawful/neutral/chaotic as how the character interacts and believes in society while good/neutral/evil are the character's interactions with individuals and the kinds of actions they would choose to take when interacting on an individual basis. Of course, the two overlap when dealing with groups ... and it is only an approximation.
To be honest, I've been thinking of doing so myself. But as I' still quite new at the game I thought I'd at least try it out first. I did try the game about... 18-20 years ago? but then it was Advanced dungeons & dragons with black books, awesome covers with adventurers and monsters breaking through doors... and far too complicated rules for my liking =)
I do prefer this edition, but there's a lot of questions arising on the way. Thanks for clearing a few of them ;)
This was really helpful, thanks! I think that my image of them stems from the way Volo describes them. They don't seem to seek conflict, they spend most of their time working towards a common goal, they don't go out of their way trying to hurt people (as long as they don't try to enter their lairs), they are prepared to sacrifice themselves (not each other) for the sake of the community and they occasionally work together with other humanoids. And the way I read that part was that they didn't do it to undermine the other community, they didn't do it to prepare for an attack, they didn't do it so they would have more creatures around to steal from. Instead it seem that they actually did so out of mutual benefit and nowhere does it seem that the kobolds will betray their neighbours.
Now I haven't played much DnD so the race is quite new to me. I remember reading Salvatore's Drizzt trilogy a looong time ago, but I don't think there were any kobolds there. I also played the first Neverwinter Nights computer game. And the kobolds there where enemies, but only as they were controlled by an evil master. On their own they never felt malicious or evil. Stupid? somewhat. selfish or egoistical? maybe. Evil? no... At least I don't think so. If anything I believe i pitied them. Then we had Deekin, my favourite follower and though he was the odd one out in the community, he never said anything of his life among the other kobolds that made me think they were evil (his master on the other hand... although he was more funny than evil).
So the only real source I have for kobold lore so far is Volo's guide. And although he's not too trustworthy, the kobolds I read about don't seem evil. It's just their game stats that says so.
But thanks for a great input! I got some new thoughts on how alignments can be interpreted!
Keep in mind that alignment is practically mechanically irrelevant(in fact this posts would maybe be better int he worldbuilding subforums). Even spells like Protection from Evil and Good and Detect Evil and Good don't interact with alignment and instead are only dependent on creature type. So whenever alignment trips you up, feel free to ignore it. Especially since Alignment is so broad it will never help you actually depict an entire culture.
[...]I read about don't seem evil. It's just their game stats that says so.
And that is one of the reasons alignment is all but vestigial in 5e, they even tried to get rid of it completely in the playtest, but there was backlash from the old guard.
AFAIK, the only thing that alignment actually matters for in 5e is for attuning to magic items that require a specific alignment, sooo... not often.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hi everyone!
I've just gotten around to reading the chapter on Kobolds in Volos guide and I really loved the way they were described (the artwork really helped as well) and I'm thinking of using them more thoroughly in my coming adventures. But I just can't grasp that they are meant to be lawful evil. Lawful, yes, I can see that as they are part of a community and their entire life seem to revolve around this. But evil? I see them trying to keep to themselves, they don't seem to wage wars, invade other peoples lands or even attack travellers. The entire chapter seem to be one big keep out and here be traps. I just can't see how this make them evil. And then I read that they are "fundamentally selfish", making them evil. After reading their chapter I find them everything but selfish, ready to even give up their lives to defend their lair and community. Sure, they don't have much of an emotional connection to their fellow kobolds... but I feel I miss out on something here.
Mind, I haven't played much DnD so far so I might have missed something or even misunderstood how alignments are meant to work, but I'd be grateful if someone could explain how their description fits with evil.
Cheers!
I actually had a discussion at length a while ago with a friend about Good(tm) and Evil(tm) in D&D, and essentially what we could come to agreement on is that not all creatures that are listed as good or evil necessarily need to be that way. Now there are some I would argue are still evil by nature, like demons, but honestly if you want to make your own cultures and personalities for a race that vary from the books, by all means! For the most part you can use books like Volo's as guidelines and idea starters, change up what you don't like, and make a world that makes sense to you.
I will say that I've noticed that Evil(tm) is mostly geared as selfish in terms of D&D alignments go, but evil also has the connotations of hostile, maniacal, and out to cause destruction. That's all well in good in some cases, but I do agree that based on what's in Volo's kobolds aren't entirely selfish, and definitely not the latter definition of Evil(tm). It's more that they are into having small treasure hoards of their own, but they are not immune to forming alliances with other humanoids (and not just evil ones). I like this section from Volo's about this:
"Some human communities hire kobolds to dig their sewer tunnels, paying them with food and tools the kobolds wouldn’t have access to on their own. If they are treated well and left alone to do the job, the kobolds work industriously and build a network of passages beneath the streets, connecting them to a nearby waterway and greatly improving the town’s sanitation. If the kobolds like the area and aren’t mistreated by the humans, they might build a warren and make a permanent home there, while continuing to expand the town’s sewers as the community grows."
This highlights that if treated well kobolds may not be so "evil" and can coexist within humanoid society if given a chance. Much more interesting than little scaly gremlins out to getcha!
Basically I'd boil it down to this: you can make good, evil, and the middle ground whatever you want. The people that wrote all these books and suppliments for D&D have already put in a lot of work so that people can have all these races and creatures built and ready to use, but part of the beauty I find in D&D is that you can build a world how you see fit. You can take the books to heart, or you can use them as "more of guidelines than actual rules." (Barbosa)
The game designers have been gradually de-emphasizing and deprioritizing alignment through the decades as more and more people start to question the mindset behind saying "this race is inherently evil" - and that's for the best, IMO. At this point it seems that alignment is almost a vestigial feature, and the only reason they haven't abolished it completely is because they fear backlash from the old guard.
Which is a long way of saying the kobolds are listed as "evil" because that's what they were listed as in previous editions, and for no other reason.
"We're the perfect combination of expendable and unkillable!"
Alignment is inherently rather subjective and vague. It is mostly used to give readers a mindset of their demeanor or mindset. Evil basically just means generally harmful toward others.
Kobolds tend to steal and/or not care about other races. They also tend to be servants of any race stronger than them (usually reptilian) with a particular goal of serving a true Dragon (usually an evil chromatic Dragon).
Thanks for the input. My main gripe was really that the description of the kobolds never struck me as evil at all, but now I think I have a new understanding. I think I'll just let them be selfish and "evil" in my games, but more from a community perspective than an individual. That way I think I'll be able to keep the alignment (for what it's worth) and sty true to the description. Those kobolds very quickly became my favourite monster race. It's a pity the playable race doesn't represent them that much... ^^
Thanks again mates!
Is evil absolute or conditional?
Do kobolds help each other or do they only act in the best interests of the community? If a comrade is wounded in battle does the kobold leave them to die or administer a coup de grace because they are a waste of resources for the community or do they rescue them and try to nurse them back to health? If there is excess food or resources in the community, do kobolds share or does whoever is strongest get to take the extra (making sure that the weakest members are at least taken care of first?).
Lawful might put the community above the individual when survival or the betterment of the community is involved. Evil might reflect that on an individual level kobolds do not play nice with each other.
In addition, when kobolds are convinced to interact in the wider world, perhaps through alliances (willing or not) with bugbears, hobgoblins, ogres and other monstrous races, do kobolds treat the creatures they meet fairly? Or do they just try to slaughter them because they aren't kobolds?
Perhaps contrast this with the typical interactions of dwarves, elves, or humans interacting with the other species in the world. There are stereotypes in play here that you need to be aware of and individuals of a species may not behave the same as the average (so you can have good kobolds and evil elves). However, in general, on the basis of how kobolds may be perceived to interact on an individual basis most of the time, their individuals (and by extension culture) could be labeled as evil.
Finally, it is your game world, kobolds can be whatever you wish in your world and if you have kobolds treat each other fairly most of the time then they are likely more neutral than evil. If kobolds actively help each other, treat each other kinds, defend individuals, make sacrifices for individuals (rather than the community), then in your world they might even be more good than neutral.
One way to look at alignment, and I am not saying it is either correct or the only way, is to consider lawful/neutral/chaotic as how the character interacts and believes in society while good/neutral/evil are the character's interactions with individuals and the kinds of actions they would choose to take when interacting on an individual basis. Of course, the two overlap when dealing with groups ... and it is only an approximation.
TBH I just ignore alignment. Especially if you have already a good description of them, you don't really need alignment.
To be honest, I've been thinking of doing so myself. But as I' still quite new at the game I thought I'd at least try it out first. I did try the game about... 18-20 years ago? but then it was Advanced dungeons & dragons with black books, awesome covers with adventurers and monsters breaking through doors... and far too complicated rules for my liking =)
I do prefer this edition, but there's a lot of questions arising on the way. Thanks for clearing a few of them ;)
This was really helpful, thanks! I think that my image of them stems from the way Volo describes them. They don't seem to seek conflict, they spend most of their time working towards a common goal, they don't go out of their way trying to hurt people (as long as they don't try to enter their lairs), they are prepared to sacrifice themselves (not each other) for the sake of the community and they occasionally work together with other humanoids. And the way I read that part was that they didn't do it to undermine the other community, they didn't do it to prepare for an attack, they didn't do it so they would have more creatures around to steal from. Instead it seem that they actually did so out of mutual benefit and nowhere does it seem that the kobolds will betray their neighbours.
Now I haven't played much DnD so the race is quite new to me. I remember reading Salvatore's Drizzt trilogy a looong time ago, but I don't think there were any kobolds there. I also played the first Neverwinter Nights computer game. And the kobolds there where enemies, but only as they were controlled by an evil master. On their own they never felt malicious or evil. Stupid? somewhat. selfish or egoistical? maybe. Evil? no... At least I don't think so. If anything I believe i pitied them. Then we had Deekin, my favourite follower and though he was the odd one out in the community, he never said anything of his life among the other kobolds that made me think they were evil (his master on the other hand... although he was more funny than evil).
So the only real source I have for kobold lore so far is Volo's guide. And although he's not too trustworthy, the kobolds I read about don't seem evil. It's just their game stats that says so.
But thanks for a great input! I got some new thoughts on how alignments can be interpreted!
Keep in mind that alignment is practically mechanically irrelevant(in fact this posts would maybe be better int he worldbuilding subforums). Even spells like Protection from Evil and Good and Detect Evil and Good don't interact with alignment and instead are only dependent on creature type. So whenever alignment trips you up, feel free to ignore it. Especially since Alignment is so broad it will never help you actually depict an entire culture.
And that is one of the reasons alignment is all but vestigial in 5e, they even tried to get rid of it completely in the playtest, but there was backlash from the old guard.
AFAIK, the only thing that alignment actually matters for in 5e is for attuning to magic items that require a specific alignment, sooo... not often.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.