Dear Diary...just kidding. Hey, need some help. Lets say you have a sorcerer/rogue PC. Go ahead, say it. Now that you said it, it sounds cool huh. Now if you have all the conditions met to do sneak attack, can you do it with a spell as long as that spell requires an attack roll? Can I Fire Bolt or Shocking Grasp my way into a sneak attack? Or in a more prevalent question in my case, can Chill Touch work? They all require attack rolls. Anyway, Ty.
No problem. When the rules talk about weapons they're generally talking about something from the weapon tables in the Player's Handbook or something that the game explicitly refers to as a weapon.
To split a very slight hair.... Sneak attack does not require a melee or ranged "weapon attack," which is a concept that is very clearly defined in the rules. Instead, it requires 1) an attack roll with advantage, 2) "made with" a ranged weapon or finesse weapon. The concept of how involved a weapon has to be in an attack for that attack to be "made with" it is maybe fuzzier...
Why is that a hair worth splitting? Because I'm not 100% that you cannot sneak attack with Magic Stone. Casting an enchanted stone from a sling, you very clearly are making a "ranged spell attack," not a "ranged weapon attack," because the spell's text says so. However, you are making a an attack roll with a ranged weapon (sling, or an improvised ranged weapon stone if just thrown without sling). If you or the ally had Archery fighting style, I think it would be hard to argue that they shouldn't get that +2 to hit with the Magic Stone cast from a sling.
How far would I push this? Would a Warlock casting a spell with an attack roll using their Pact Blade (Dagger) as a spell focus for the spell be making an attack "with" the dagger? Kind of?
RAI, you're clearly supposed to be stabbing the baddie with the dagger. RAW, the door miiiiight be cracked for some spell shennanigans if you have a weapon focus used to make the spell attack.
Hey, I read Shadow Blade but it doesn't say what attack mod it uses. Does it use you spell cast mod or Dex? I even hooked it up on DDB & it doesn't even list a mod in the attack tab. Am I just missing it? Ty
The spell creates a weapon, so you use the weapon's properties when attacking. One of those properties is finesse, which means you can use STR or DEX. You are also proficient. So your to-hit is: [proficiency bonus] + [STR or DEX, your choice] and your damage will be [2d8] + [STR or DEX].
WHAT IS A SPELL? A spell is a discrete magical effect, a single shaping of the magical energies that suffuse the multiverse into a specific, limited expression. In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect-in most cases, all in the span of seconds. Spells can be versatile tools, weapons, or protective wards. They can deal damage or undo it, impose or remove conditions (see appendix A), drain life energy away, and restore life to the dead. Uncounted thousands of spells have been created over the course of the multiverse's history, and many of them are long forgotten. Some might yet lie recorded in crumbling spellbooks hidden in ancient ruins or trapped in the minds of dead gods. Or they might someday be reinvented by a character who has amassed enough power and wisdom to do so.
So RAW, spells are weapons, And if it is a ranged spell, meets the requirements for sneak attack
Spells can be weapons. That statement doesn't mean all spells are weapons, just like all spells aren't protective wards or versatile tools. The spells that are weapons say that they are weapons.
I also don't know how much weight people put into what Jeremy Crawford says, but here he specifically states that ranged weapons are the things under the weapons table that says, wait for it, "ranged weapons".
So, I’ve been thinking about this topic lately as I’ve considered a multi-class sorcerer/rogue. I totally agree that it would be broken to allow any spell that requires an attack roll to utilize sneak attack, but I think there is some room to argue SOME may make sense. For example, Ice Knife not only requires the attack roll, but also does piercing damage (primary) suggesting the target is literally being stabbed with a shard of ice. Additionally, casting at a higher level does not scale up this primary damage, only the secondary AoE effect. Logically, I would say this should qualify for sneak attack. Basically, I feel it acceptable to allow spells that a) require an attack roll, b) inflict physical damage (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) for their primary effect, similar to qualifying weapons, and maybe c) the primary physical damage doesn’t scale up when cast at a higher level.
So, I’ve been thinking about this topic lately as I’ve considered a multi-class sorcerer/rogue. I totally agree that it would be broken to allow any spell that requires an attack roll to utilize sneak attack, but I think there is some room to argue SOME may make sense. For example, Ice Knife not only requires the attack roll, but also does piercing damage (primary) suggesting the target is literally being stabbed with a shard of ice. Additionally, casting at a higher level does not scale up this primary damage, only the secondary AoE effect. Logically, I would say this should qualify for sneak attack. Basically, I feel it acceptable to allow spells that a) require an attack roll, b) inflict physical damage (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) for their primary effect, similar to qualifying weapons, and maybe c) the primary physical damage doesn’t scale up when cast at a higher level.
Thoughts?
By Rules As Written, Sneak Attack requires making an attack with a finesse or ranged weapon. You can choose to do it differently, but that takes it into the realm of house rules. Note that there are spells, like Shadow Blade or Booming Blade, that will allow you to get sneak attack when attacking.
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Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
So, I’ve been thinking about this topic lately as I’ve considered a multi-class sorcerer/rogue. I totally agree that it would be broken to allow any spell that requires an attack roll to utilize sneak attack, but I think there is some room to argue SOME may make sense. For example, Ice Knife not only requires the attack roll, but also does piercing damage (primary) suggesting the target is literally being stabbed with a shard of ice. Additionally, casting at a higher level does not scale up this primary damage, only the secondary AoE effect. Logically, I would say this should qualify for sneak attack. Basically, I feel it acceptable to allow spells that a) require an attack roll, b) inflict physical damage (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) for their primary effect, similar to qualifying weapons, and maybe c) the primary physical damage doesn’t scale up when cast at a higher level.
Thoughts?
I don't agree with you, but after a quick check literally only ice knife and Magic stone are effected by this house rule, so if you want to allow it, go for it.
Though I do hope that you still let the ranged/finesse weapon attacks that don't deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing to deal sneak attack damage like they should.
Isn’t a throwing knife a ranged weapon? It should follow that the Ice Knife spell could be considered a ranged weapon. Just my thoughts anyhow.
A “knife” or dagger is a melee weapon with the thrown property. It is not a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons are the ones specifically on the Ranged Weapons table in the PHB
Dear Diary...just kidding. Hey, need some help. Lets say you have a sorcerer/rogue PC. Go ahead, say it. Now that you said it, it sounds cool huh. Now if you have all the conditions met to do sneak attack, can you do it with a spell as long as that spell requires an attack roll? Can I Fire Bolt or Shocking Grasp my way into a sneak attack? Or in a more prevalent question in my case, can Chill Touch work? They all require attack rolls. Anyway, Ty.
Sneak Attack requires attacking with a ranged or finesse weapon.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Ty. Wasn't sure if a spell was considered a weapon in this case. Thank you.
No problem. When the rules talk about weapons they're generally talking about something from the weapon tables in the Player's Handbook or something that the game explicitly refers to as a weapon.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Spells are only weapons if the say they are (see shadow blade)
To split a very slight hair.... Sneak attack does not require a melee or ranged "weapon attack," which is a concept that is very clearly defined in the rules. Instead, it requires 1) an attack roll with advantage, 2) "made with" a ranged weapon or finesse weapon. The concept of how involved a weapon has to be in an attack for that attack to be "made with" it is maybe fuzzier...
Why is that a hair worth splitting? Because I'm not 100% that you cannot sneak attack with Magic Stone. Casting an enchanted stone from a sling, you very clearly are making a "ranged spell attack," not a "ranged weapon attack," because the spell's text says so. However, you are making a an attack roll with a ranged weapon (sling, or an improvised ranged weapon stone if just thrown without sling). If you or the ally had Archery fighting style, I think it would be hard to argue that they shouldn't get that +2 to hit with the Magic Stone cast from a sling.
How far would I push this? Would a Warlock casting a spell with an attack roll using their Pact Blade (Dagger) as a spell focus for the spell be making an attack "with" the dagger? Kind of?
RAI, you're clearly supposed to be stabbing the baddie with the dagger. RAW, the door miiiiight be cracked for some spell shennanigans if you have a weapon focus used to make the spell attack.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Booming blade is a good cantrip for rogues as casting it requires a melee attack. Booming blade damage will stack with sneak attack.
Your secret is safe with my indifference - Percy
Hey, I read Shadow Blade but it doesn't say what attack mod it uses. Does it use you spell cast mod or Dex? I even hooked it up on DDB & it doesn't even list a mod in the attack tab. Am I just missing it? Ty
The spell creates a weapon, so you use the weapon's properties when attacking. One of those properties is finesse, which means you can use STR or DEX. You are also proficient. So your to-hit is: [proficiency bonus] + [STR or DEX, your choice] and your damage will be [2d8] + [STR or DEX].
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
Player handbook page 201 states :
WHAT IS A SPELL?
A spell is a discrete magical effect, a single shaping of the magical energies that suffuse the multiverse into a specific, limited expression. In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect-in most cases, all in the span of seconds.
Spells can be versatile tools, weapons, or protective wards. They can deal damage or undo it, impose or remove conditions (see appendix A), drain life energy away, and restore life to the dead.
Uncounted thousands of spells have been created over the course of the multiverse's history, and many of them are long forgotten. Some might yet lie recorded in crumbling spellbooks hidden in ancient ruins or trapped in the minds of dead gods. Or they might someday be reinvented by a character who has amassed enough power and wisdom to do so.
So RAW, spells are weapons, And if it is a ranged spell, meets the requirements for sneak attack
Spells can be weapons. That statement doesn't mean all spells are weapons, just like all spells aren't protective wards or versatile tools. The spells that are weapons say that they are weapons.
I also don't know how much weight people put into what Jeremy Crawford says, but here he specifically states that ranged weapons are the things under the weapons table that says, wait for it, "ranged weapons".
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/733458905062203394
So, I’ve been thinking about this topic lately as I’ve considered a multi-class sorcerer/rogue. I totally agree that it would be broken to allow any spell that requires an attack roll to utilize sneak attack, but I think there is some room to argue SOME may make sense. For example, Ice Knife not only requires the attack roll, but also does piercing damage (primary) suggesting the target is literally being stabbed with a shard of ice. Additionally, casting at a higher level does not scale up this primary damage, only the secondary AoE effect. Logically, I would say this should qualify for sneak attack. Basically, I feel it acceptable to allow spells that a) require an attack roll, b) inflict physical damage (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) for their primary effect, similar to qualifying weapons, and maybe c) the primary physical damage doesn’t scale up when cast at a higher level.
Thoughts?
By Rules As Written, Sneak Attack requires making an attack with a finesse or ranged weapon. You can choose to do it differently, but that takes it into the realm of house rules. Note that there are spells, like Shadow Blade or Booming Blade, that will allow you to get sneak attack when attacking.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
I don't agree with you, but after a quick check literally only ice knife and Magic stone are effected by this house rule, so if you want to allow it, go for it.
Though I do hope that you still let the ranged/finesse weapon attacks that don't deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing to deal sneak attack damage like they should.
Isn’t a throwing knife a ranged weapon? It should follow that the Ice Knife spell could be considered a ranged weapon. Just my thoughts anyhow.
A “knife” or dagger is a melee weapon with the thrown property. It is not a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons are the ones specifically on the Ranged Weapons table in the PHB
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
If you want to use sneak attack, you are better served by the shadow blade spell.
"Not all those who wander are lost"