And, how does "Counterspell" play into all this then?
If you haven't cast a bonus action spell that turn, you can cast counterspell on turnturn even if you've used your action to cast a spell.
If you have cast a bonus action spell that turn, you can't cast counterspell on that turn because the only other type of spell that can be cast in the same turn as a bonus action spell is a cantrip of casting time one action (and counterspell is a spell of casting time 1 reaction)
For example
Valid You cast Fireball and the enemy wizard casts Counterspell in response. You would be able to counterspell their Counterspell to try and ensure your fireball goes through.
Not ValidYou cast Misty Step and the same enemy casts Counterspell on it. You wouldn't be able to respond with your own Counterspell because you've cast a spell with casting time 1 Bonus Action
And, how does "Counterspell" play into all this then?
If you haven't cast a bonus action spell that turn, you can cast counterspell on turnturn even if you've used your action to cast a spell.
If you have cast a bonus action spell that turn, you can't cast counterspell on that turn because the only other type of spell that can be cast in the same turn as a bonus action spell is a cantrip of casting time one action (and counterspell is a spell of casting time 1 reaction)
For example
Valid You cast Fireball and the enemy wizard casts Counterspell in response. You would be able to counterspell their Counterspell to try and ensure your fireball goes through.
Not ValidYou cast Misty Step and the same enemy casts Counterspell on it. You wouldn't be able to respond with your own Counterspell because you've cast a spell with casting time 1 Bonus Action
Fireball and Counterspell both require a Somatic Component. If you're mid-cast of fireball your hand is not free for casting Counterspell. (Unless, of course, you do have both free)
Valid You cast Fireball and the enemy wizard casts Counterspell in response. You would be able to counterspell their Counterspell to try and ensure your fireball goes through.
Not ValidYou cast Misty Step and the same enemy casts Counterspell on it. You wouldn't be able to respond with your own Counterspell because you've cast a spell with casting time 1 Bonus Action
Fireball and Counterspell both require a Somatic Component. If you're mid-cast of fireball your hand is not free for casting Counterspell. (Unless, of course, you do have both free)
Aparently you can that example is specifically mentioned in the SAC
Valid You cast Fireball and the enemy wizard casts Counterspell in response. You would be able to counterspell their Counterspell to try and ensure your fireball goes through.
Not ValidYou cast Misty Step and the same enemy casts Counterspell on it. You wouldn't be able to respond with your own Counterspell because you've cast a spell with casting time 1 Bonus Action
Fireball and Counterspell both require a Somatic Component. If you're mid-cast of fireball your hand is not free for casting Counterspell. (Unless, of course, you do have both free)
Aparently you can that example is specifically mentioned in the SAC
Right, like I said, if you have both hands free you totally can. One for fireball, one for counterspell. It is totally doable, it is just nice to note the caveat being the need for the two free hands, while doing it.
Right, like I said, if you have both hands free you totally can. One for fireball, one for counterspell. It is totally doable, it is just nice to note the caveat being the need for the two free hands, while doing it.
No, only one is required, you're only casting one spell at a time. Oddities like this are why prior editions didn't allow taking reactions on your turn.
Right, like I said, if you have both hands free you totally can. One for fireball, one for counterspell. It is totally doable, it is just nice to note the caveat being the need for the two free hands, while doing it.
No, only one is required, you're only casting one spell at a time. Oddities like this are why prior editions didn't allow taking reactions on your turn.
No, in this example, your Fireball is mid-cast when the enemy tries to Counterspell it, and their Counterspell is mid-cast when you Counterspell the Counterspell. Your 1st hand is still busy doing the Fireball.
Read the 1st sentence of Counterspell. It interrupts a spell while it is in-the-process of casting.
Right, like I said, if you have both hands free you totally can. One for fireball, one for counterspell. It is totally doable, it is just nice to note the caveat being the need for the two free hands, while doing it.
No, only one is required, you're only casting one spell at a time. Oddities like this are why prior editions didn't allow taking reactions on your turn.
No, in this example, your Fireball is mid-cast when the enemy tries to Counterspell it, and their Counterspell is mid-cast when you Counterspell the Counterspell. Your 1st hand is still busy doing the Fireball.
Read the 1st sentence of Counterspell. It interrupts a spell while it is in-the-process of casting.
There isn't a rule that says a free hand that is being used to cast a spell stops being free to cast a spell.
No, in this example, your Fireball is mid-cast when the enemy tries to Counterspell it, and their Counterspell is mid-cast when you Counterspell the Counterspell. Your 1st hand is still busy doing the Fireball.
Read the 1st sentence of Counterspell. It interrupts a spell while it is in-the-process of casting.
Quite simply, that doesn't matter. Game mechanics wise, they are discrete events.
No, in this example, your Fireball is mid-cast when the enemy tries to Counterspell it, and their Counterspell is mid-cast when you Counterspell the Counterspell. Your 1st hand is still busy doing the Fireball.
Read the 1st sentence of Counterspell. It interrupts a spell while it is in-the-process of casting.
Quite simply, that doesn't matter. Game mechanics wise, they are discrete events.
There's also, of course, nothing saying what the actual gestures for any spell are, nor whether or not they can be mixed together and performed at the same time, because those things are far beyond the scope of the rules
If you want to invent things to fill those gaps for RP purposes or whatever, then just add a little flourish to your fireball gestures to cast a counterspell too
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Right, like I said, if you have both hands free you totally can. One for fireball, one for counterspell. It is totally doable, it is just nice to note the caveat being the need for the two free hands, while doing it.
No, only one is required, you're only casting one spell at a time. Oddities like this are why prior editions didn't allow taking reactions on your turn.
No, in this example, your Fireball is mid-cast when the enemy tries to Counterspell it, and their Counterspell is mid-cast when you Counterspell the Counterspell. Your 1st hand is still busy doing the Fireball.
Read the 1st sentence of Counterspell. It interrupts a spell while it is in-the-process of casting.
There isn't a rule that says a free hand that is being used to cast a spell stops being free to cast a spell.
If it is busy casting a spell, it isn't free. You need a free hand to do somatic components. You can't ignore the requirement for having a free hand.
Nothing in the rules for somatic components says that performing a somatic component occupies your hand or otherwise stops it being "free" for the requirement of "free use of at least one hand"
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
In fact, there's nothing in the rules that states:
Somatic gestures preclude a hand from being considered free
Multiple somatic gestures cannot be performed with the same hand
When somatic gestures are performed during spellcasting
How long somatic gestures take during spellcasting
As such, there is nothing to say that you cannot perform the somatic gesture for counterspell during the casting of fireball as long as you have at least one free hand in order to perform the required somatic gestures.
As near as I can find, the rules don't tell us what makes a free hand no longer free. Some things are easy to conceptualize, like if you're holding something or someone, your hand is no longer free. Spellcasting doesn't have a real-world analogue, so it's not as clear whether that makes a free hand no longer free.
As Davyd points out, nothing in the rules tells us that the somatic components of spellcasting stop a free hand from being free--the rules don't say one way or the other. This SAC entry would be a perfect place to point out the need for a second free hand in the example of counterspell against counterspell, but the example they highlight makes no mention of such a requirement. If spellcasting occupied a hand, the rules ought to tell us as much. And they don't. So, my reading of the rules is that a hand engaged only in spellcasting remains free for as much spellcasting as one's action economy allows.
Nothing in the rules for somatic components says that performing a somatic component occupies your hand or otherwise stops it being "free" for the requirement of "free use of at least one hand"
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
In fact, there's nothing in the rules that states:
Somatic gestures preclude a hand from being considered free
Multiple somatic gestures cannot be performed with the same hand
When somatic gestures are performed during spellcasting
How long somatic gestures take during spellcasting
As such, there is nothing to say that you cannot perform the somatic gesture for counterspell during the casting of fireball as long as you have at least one free hand in order to perform the required somatic gestures.
Well, there is nothing that says having your hand full makes it not free, either. Because nothing, anywhere, tells us what a not-free hand is or what a free hand is.
We have to use normal english meaning. If your hand is busy doing something it isn't free. And if it isn't free, you can't use it for your Counterspell.
Somatic components are, in case anyone didn't know, specific gestures you make with the hand. Your hand cannot make two distinct gestures simultaneously. One hand, one gesture.
Anyone whose even attempted use of sign language would understand, as that is as close to a real world analog as we have.
TLDR Your hand isn't free to make a gesture if it is instead making a different gesture.
If spellcasting occupied a hand, the rules ought to tell us as much. And they don't.
I agree. They don't. They don't tell us holding an object makes the hand not free. They don't tell us if being restrained makes the hand not free. The rules are entirely silent on it. Entirely in all cases.
A good rule of thumb though, is if something requires your free hand, you can't also be using the hand for something else that needs that hand to be free.
So, my reading of the rules is that a hand engaged only in spellcasting remains free for as much spellcasting as one's action economy allows.
If you infere a hand remains free because nothing says it isn't. Then hands are always free, because never does any rule say they're not. Carry a million swords in the same hand and also do somatic component with it. Nothing says you can't.
That's why we have to be discerning about it. Well, DMs do. They'll need to rule on it, absent a hard rule provided from the game.
It isn't unreasonable to expect that a hand that is busy doing something isn't then free to simultaneously do a totally different thing. Just like you can't weild two swords in one hand at once either.
I would disagree with the rules not telling us what constitutes a hand not being free, there are multiple instances where the rules state something 'occupies' a hand for example.
However, even if we take that to be true, and accept (unsupported by the rules) that using your hand to make somatic gestures renders it no longer free, that still doesn't dismiss bullet points 3 and 4. Nothing in the rules says that somatic gestures must be performed for the entire duration of casting the spell. In fact, we only get maybe one description of a somatic gesture in burning hands
As you hold your hands with thumbs touching and fingers spread, a thin sheet of flames shoots forth from your outstretched fingertips
This somatic component appears to be performed at the end of the spell, not during, due to the description stating that the flames shoot forth as you're performing the gesture. It would stand to reason up until that point your hands are free to perform other somatic gestures.
As for other somatic spells such as fireball, there's nothing to preclude you from saying the somatic gesture is performed for a split moment during the casting of the spell and at all other times, your hands are free and able to perform other spells.
I would agree with you if the rules stated that you must perform the somatic gestures throughout the whole spell, but there is nothing to that effect anywhere in the rules.
I think it's something that everyone understands intuitively, I don't think it needs to be clarified. However, a free hand is an unoccupied hand. The issue here is not that, but how long a hand is busy making the gestures of the somatic component. The obvious answer is: The time it takes to cast the spell. So when you use your reaction to cast counterspell, your hand is free because you're done casting fireball. Understanding that, you'll see that there's no somatic component issue that prevents you from first casting fireball as an action, and then immediately counterspell as a reaction (to another counterspell normally).
I would disagree with the rules not telling us what constitutes a hand not being free, there are multiple instances where the rules state something 'occupies' a hand for example.
However, even if we take that to be true, and accept (unsupported by the rules) that using your hand to make somatic gestures renders it no longer free, that still doesn't dismiss bullet points 3 and 4. Nothing in the rules says that somatic gestures must be performed for the entire duration of casting the spell. In fact, we only get maybe one description of a somatic gesture in burning hands
As you hold your hands with thumbs touching and fingers spread, a thin sheet of flames shoots forth from your outstretched fingertips
This somatic component appears to be performed at the end of the spell, not during, due to the description stating that the flames shoot forth as you're performing the gesture. It would stand to reason up until that point your hands are free to perform other somatic gestures.
As for other somatic spells such as fireball, there's nothing to preclude you from saying the somatic gesture is performed for a split moment during the casting of the spell and at all other times, your hands are free and able to perform other spells.
I would agree with you if the rules stated that you must perform the somatic gestures throughout the whole spell, but there is nothing to that effect anywhere in the rules.
"which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"
Counterspell is happening in response to seeing the spell being cast. It happens while you can see the caster doing his spell. Ie, while he is gesturing.
So timing is specified. The Fireball is mid-somatic while Counterspelled. Because thats when the counterspeller saw them casting. The "when" of it is triggered by the counterspeller.
They litterally are counterspelling while the burning hands mage has his hands up. He can do the S component of counterspell but doing so means not doing the S component of burning hands because he stopped holding them out fingers outstretched. His hands can't be in two places simultaneously.
If spellcasting occupied a hand, the rules ought to tell us as much. And they don't.
I agree. They don't. They don't tell us holding an object makes the hand not free. They don't tell us if being restrained makes the hand not free. The rules are entirely silent on it. Entirely in all cases.
A good rule of thumb though, is if something requires your free hand, you can't also be using the hand for something else that needs that hand to be free.
So, my reading of the rules is that a hand engaged only in spellcasting remains free for as much spellcasting as one's action economy allows.
If you infere a hand remains free because nothing says it isn't. Then hands are always free, because never does any rule say they're not. Carry a million swords in the same hand and also do somatic component with it. Nothing says you can't.
That's why we have to be discerning about it. Well, DMs do. They'll need to rule on it, absent a hard rule provided from the game.
It isn't unreasonable to expect that a hand that is busy doing something isn't then free to simultaneously do a totally different thing. Just like you can't weild two swords in one hand at once either.
I always appreciate you agreeing with me, and then disagreeing with me in the same post. It brings me great comfort to know that if I ever assert that a character can carry a million swords in the same hand and also do somatic components with it, you will be there to call me on it.
I would disagree with the rules not telling us what constitutes a hand not being free, there are multiple instances where the rules state something 'occupies' a hand for example.
However, even if we take that to be true, and accept (unsupported by the rules) that using your hand to make somatic gestures renders it no longer free, that still doesn't dismiss bullet points 3 and 4. Nothing in the rules says that somatic gestures must be performed for the entire duration of casting the spell. In fact, we only get maybe one description of a somatic gesture in burning hands
As you hold your hands with thumbs touching and fingers spread, a thin sheet of flames shoots forth from your outstretched fingertips
This somatic component appears to be performed at the end of the spell, not during, due to the description stating that the flames shoot forth as you're performing the gesture. It would stand to reason up until that point your hands are free to perform other somatic gestures.
As for other somatic spells such as fireball, there's nothing to preclude you from saying the somatic gesture is performed for a split moment during the casting of the spell and at all other times, your hands are free and able to perform other spells.
I would agree with you if the rules stated that you must perform the somatic gestures throughout the whole spell, but there is nothing to that effect anywhere in the rules.
"which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"
Counterspell is happening in response to seeing the spell being cast. It happens while you can see the caster doing his spell. Ie, while he is gesturing.
So timing is specified. The Fireball is mid-somatic while Counterspelled. Because thats when the counterspeller saw them casting. The "when" of it is triggered by the counterspeller.
They litterally are counterspelling while the burning hands mage has his hands up. He can do the S component of counterspell but doing so means not doing the S component of burning hands because he stopped holding them out fingers outstretched. His hands can't be in two places simultaneously.
You're free as a DM to rule that way, but I see nothing in the rules supporting your assertion. Chase your bliss
You're free as a DM to rule that way, but I see nothing in the rules supporting your assertion. Chase your bliss
You don't see anything to support it in the rules because there is nothing to support your interpretation either. The rules do confound us like that sometimes. They just are silent on something when they probably should define it. Here they remain silent on what it means to be a "free hand". I'm of the mind that means it can't be busy. You're not, which, you know, is a position.
But you are indeed correct that DMs do make this ruling. I don't make the ruling for other tables, nor do you. Each DM will make the right call for their table.
If you haven't cast a bonus action spell that turn, you can cast counterspell on turnturn even if you've used your action to cast a spell.
If you have cast a bonus action spell that turn, you can't cast counterspell on that turn because the only other type of spell that can be cast in the same turn as a bonus action spell is a cantrip of casting time one action (and counterspell is a spell of casting time 1 reaction)
For example
Valid
You cast Fireball and the enemy wizard casts Counterspell in response. You would be able to counterspell their Counterspell to try and ensure your fireball goes through.
Not ValidYou cast Misty Step and the same enemy casts Counterspell on it. You wouldn't be able to respond with your own Counterspell because you've cast a spell with casting time 1 Bonus Action
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Fireball and Counterspell both require a Somatic Component. If you're mid-cast of fireball your hand is not free for casting Counterspell. (Unless, of course, you do have both free)
I got quotes!
Aparently you can that example is specifically mentioned in the SAC
Right, like I said, if you have both hands free you totally can. One for fireball, one for counterspell. It is totally doable, it is just nice to note the caveat being the need for the two free hands, while doing it.
I got quotes!
No, only one is required, you're only casting one spell at a time. Oddities like this are why prior editions didn't allow taking reactions on your turn.
No, in this example, your Fireball is mid-cast when the enemy tries to Counterspell it, and their Counterspell is mid-cast when you Counterspell the Counterspell. Your 1st hand is still busy doing the Fireball.
Read the 1st sentence of Counterspell. It interrupts a spell while it is in-the-process of casting.
I got quotes!
There isn't a rule that says a free hand that is being used to cast a spell stops being free to cast a spell.
Quite simply, that doesn't matter. Game mechanics wise, they are discrete events.
There's also, of course, nothing saying what the actual gestures for any spell are, nor whether or not they can be mixed together and performed at the same time, because those things are far beyond the scope of the rules
If you want to invent things to fill those gaps for RP purposes or whatever, then just add a little flourish to your fireball gestures to cast a counterspell too
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If it is busy casting a spell, it isn't free. You need a free hand to do somatic components. You can't ignore the requirement for having a free hand.
I got quotes!
Nothing in the rules for somatic components says that performing a somatic component occupies your hand or otherwise stops it being "free" for the requirement of "free use of at least one hand"
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting#SomaticS
In fact, there's nothing in the rules that states:
As such, there is nothing to say that you cannot perform the somatic gesture for counterspell during the casting of fireball as long as you have at least one free hand in order to perform the required somatic gestures.
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As near as I can find, the rules don't tell us what makes a free hand no longer free. Some things are easy to conceptualize, like if you're holding something or someone, your hand is no longer free. Spellcasting doesn't have a real-world analogue, so it's not as clear whether that makes a free hand no longer free.
As Davyd points out, nothing in the rules tells us that the somatic components of spellcasting stop a free hand from being free--the rules don't say one way or the other. This SAC entry would be a perfect place to point out the need for a second free hand in the example of counterspell against counterspell, but the example they highlight makes no mention of such a requirement. If spellcasting occupied a hand, the rules ought to tell us as much. And they don't. So, my reading of the rules is that a hand engaged only in spellcasting remains free for as much spellcasting as one's action economy allows.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Well, there is nothing that says having your hand full makes it not free, either. Because nothing, anywhere, tells us what a not-free hand is or what a free hand is.
We have to use normal english meaning. If your hand is busy doing something it isn't free. And if it isn't free, you can't use it for your Counterspell.
Somatic components are, in case anyone didn't know, specific gestures you make with the hand. Your hand cannot make two distinct gestures simultaneously. One hand, one gesture.
Anyone whose even attempted use of sign language would understand, as that is as close to a real world analog as we have.
TLDR Your hand isn't free to make a gesture if it is instead making a different gesture.
I got quotes!
I agree. They don't. They don't tell us holding an object makes the hand not free. They don't tell us if being restrained makes the hand not free. The rules are entirely silent on it. Entirely in all cases.
A good rule of thumb though, is if something requires your free hand, you can't also be using the hand for something else that needs that hand to be free.
If you infere a hand remains free because nothing says it isn't. Then hands are always free, because never does any rule say they're not. Carry a million swords in the same hand and also do somatic component with it. Nothing says you can't.
That's why we have to be discerning about it. Well, DMs do. They'll need to rule on it, absent a hard rule provided from the game.
It isn't unreasonable to expect that a hand that is busy doing something isn't then free to simultaneously do a totally different thing. Just like you can't weild two swords in one hand at once either.
I got quotes!
I would disagree with the rules not telling us what constitutes a hand not being free, there are multiple instances where the rules state something 'occupies' a hand for example.
However, even if we take that to be true, and accept (unsupported by the rules) that using your hand to make somatic gestures renders it no longer free, that still doesn't dismiss bullet points 3 and 4. Nothing in the rules says that somatic gestures must be performed for the entire duration of casting the spell. In fact, we only get maybe one description of a somatic gesture in burning hands
This somatic component appears to be performed at the end of the spell, not during, due to the description stating that the flames shoot forth as you're performing the gesture. It would stand to reason up until that point your hands are free to perform other somatic gestures.
As for other somatic spells such as fireball, there's nothing to preclude you from saying the somatic gesture is performed for a split moment during the casting of the spell and at all other times, your hands are free and able to perform other spells.
I would agree with you if the rules stated that you must perform the somatic gestures throughout the whole spell, but there is nothing to that effect anywhere in the rules.
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I think it's something that everyone understands intuitively, I don't think it needs to be clarified.
However, a free hand is an unoccupied hand.
The issue here is not that, but how long a hand is busy making the gestures of the somatic component. The obvious answer is: The time it takes to cast the spell.
So when you use your reaction to cast counterspell, your hand is free because you're done casting fireball.
Understanding that, you'll see that there's no somatic component issue that prevents you from first casting fireball as an action, and then immediately counterspell as a reaction (to another counterspell normally).
"which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"
Counterspell is happening in response to seeing the spell being cast. It happens while you can see the caster doing his spell. Ie, while he is gesturing.
So timing is specified. The Fireball is mid-somatic while Counterspelled. Because thats when the counterspeller saw them casting. The "when" of it is triggered by the counterspeller.
They litterally are counterspelling while the burning hands mage has his hands up. He can do the S component of counterspell but doing so means not doing the S component of burning hands because he stopped holding them out fingers outstretched. His hands can't be in two places simultaneously.
I got quotes!
I always appreciate you agreeing with me, and then disagreeing with me in the same post. It brings me great comfort to know that if I ever assert that a character can carry a million swords in the same hand and also do somatic components with it, you will be there to call me on it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You're free as a DM to rule that way, but I see nothing in the rules supporting your assertion. Chase your bliss
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You don't see anything to support it in the rules because there is nothing to support your interpretation either. The rules do confound us like that sometimes. They just are silent on something when they probably should define it. Here they remain silent on what it means to be a "free hand". I'm of the mind that means it can't be busy. You're not, which, you know, is a position.
But you are indeed correct that DMs do make this ruling. I don't make the ruling for other tables, nor do you. Each DM will make the right call for their table.
I got quotes!