So had some questions about this ability. Once i get this ability, does it allow me to swap my spells out for ANY spell (of a level i could cast)? Is it limited to just spells of the chosen class? Do i have to swap out one of the magic secret spells i learned to do so? If i decide down the line to swap out one of these spells, can i pick it back up later? Is it still considered a "Bard" spell even if i 'forget' it for a level?
Magical Secrets essentially just adds the given spells to the bard spell list for you. That’s it. You can replace them when you level up with any other spell on the bard spell list, which includes any other spells you’ve chosen as Magical Secrets but NOT spells from any other spell list.
Magical Secrets does not actually teach you any spells. You still have to choose them as spells known as you gain spells known. “Forgetting” them for a level doesn’t remove them from your personal bard spell list, because nothing actually forces you to learn them to begin with. They’re just on your spell list as options.
Basically what Saga said. You can forget them to learn a different or higher level bard spell, but can't forget them to learn a different non-bard spell.
Even if you forget them, they would still be your magical secrets spells even if you forgot them, so you can relearn them.
Another point, could a bard theoretically just not choose magical secrets spells until they reach a level that allows them to know higher level spells?
Another point, could a bard theoretically just not choose magical secrets spells until they reach a level that allows them to know higher level spells?
You get the magical secrets at the time you level up. You can’t hold it for later.
Another point, could a bard theoretically just not choose magical secrets spells until they reach a level that allows them to know higher level spells?
You get the magical secrets at the time you level up. You can’t hold it for later.
Another point, could a bard theoretically just not choose magical secrets spells until they reach a level that allows them to know higher level spells?
You get the magical secrets at the time you level up. You can’t hold it for later.
Where would one find this rule?
From the class feature:
Magical Secrets
By 10th level, you have plundered magical knowledge from a wide spectrum of disciplines. Choose two spells from any classes, including this one. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip.
The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table.
You learn two additional spells from any classes at 14th level and again at 18th level.
You will also notice that this is listed on the Bards table. And since it is included in your spells known you also see on that table your spells known go from 12 at 9th level to 14 at 10th level showing that you gained two spells known from your Magical Secrets.
As far as I know, there are no class features you can just say, “Yeah, I’d rather wait”. You get the class feature precisely when your class grants you that feature.
Another point, could a bard theoretically just not choose magical secrets spells until they reach a level that allows them to know higher level spells?
You get the magical secrets at the time you level up. You can’t hold it for later.
Where would one find this rule?
As far as I know, there are no class features you can just say, “Yeah, I’d rather wait”. You get the class feature precisely when your class grants you that feature.
Yeah, this is the part I'm asking about. I ask because "as far as I know" doesn't really satisfy the level of reliability that I tend to need when evaluating if something is good info or not. I just had hoped that if you where claiming it with as much certainty as you had, that you might be able to point to the rules that says as much.
Another point, could a bard theoretically just not choose magical secrets spells until they reach a level that allows them to know higher level spells?
You get the magical secrets at the time you level up. You can’t hold it for later.
Where would one find this rule?
As far as I know, there are no class features you can just say, “Yeah, I’d rather wait”. You get the class feature precisely when your class grants you that feature.
Yeah, this is the part I'm asking about. I ask because "as far as I know" doesn't really satisfy the level of reliability that I tend to need when evaluating if something is good info or not. I just had hoped that if you where claiming it with as much certainty as you had, that you might be able to point to the rules that says as much.
None of the abilities have wording to the effect of "either now or any time in the future, choose...".
It looks like they all simply have "Choose..."
This implies that the choice is made when the ability is gained.
That is correct. A 17th level bard got their last magical secrets at level 14, when they could only cast 7th level spells. They could not have selected a spell of a level which they could not cast at 14th level. Their highest magical secret would be 7th level, and those would only be the ones gained at 14th character level.
A bard cannot cast 9th level spells until character level 17, and so must use magical secrets gained after that level (the ones granted at 18th level would work) to select 9th level spells.
You cannot trade magical secrets for non-bard spells. Magical secrets count as bard spells, but you can only retrain bard spells, meaning you can only drop a magical secret and replace it with another bard spell (which technically still, for your character, includes whatever your magical secret spell was, I think).
Possibly a way around this would be to take 4 levels of sorcerer, then bard up to 14. At that time, you would have a 9th level spell slot available due to multiclassing. You would still be character level 18, but only Bard level 14.
Possibly a way around this would be to take 4 levels of sorcerer, then bard up to 14. At that time, you would have a 9th level spell slot available due to multiclassing. You would still be character level 18, but only Bard level 14.
Although this is an old thread, this reply isn't correct. The text of magical secrets says:
"A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table"
You can't use spell slots gained through multiclassing to unlock access to higher level magical secrets, the spells have to be of a level you can cast AS a bard only.
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So had some questions about this ability. Once i get this ability, does it allow me to swap my spells out for ANY spell (of a level i could cast)? Is it limited to just spells of the chosen class? Do i have to swap out one of the magic secret spells i learned to do so? If i decide down the line to swap out one of these spells, can i pick it back up later? Is it still considered a "Bard" spell even if i 'forget' it for a level?
Magical Secrets essentially just adds the given spells to the bard spell list for you. That’s it. You can replace them when you level up with any other spell on the bard spell list, which includes any other spells you’ve chosen as Magical Secrets but NOT spells from any other spell list.
Magical Secrets does not actually teach you any spells. You still have to choose them as spells known as you gain spells known. “Forgetting” them for a level doesn’t remove them from your personal bard spell list, because nothing actually forces you to learn them to begin with. They’re just on your spell list as options.
Basically what Saga said. You can forget them to learn a different or higher level bard spell, but can't forget them to learn a different non-bard spell.
Even if you forget them, they would still be your magical secrets spells even if you forgot them, so you can relearn them.
Another point, could a bard theoretically just not choose magical secrets spells until they reach a level that allows them to know higher level spells?
You get the magical secrets at the time you level up. You can’t hold it for later.
Where would one find this rule?
I got quotes!
From the class feature:
You will also notice that this is listed on the Bards table. And since it is included in your spells known you also see on that table your spells known go from 12 at 9th level to 14 at 10th level showing that you gained two spells known from your Magical Secrets.
As far as I know, there are no class features you can just say, “Yeah, I’d rather wait”. You get the class feature precisely when your class grants you that feature.
Yeah, this is the part I'm asking about. I ask because "as far as I know" doesn't really satisfy the level of reliability that I tend to need when evaluating if something is good info or not. I just had hoped that if you where claiming it with as much certainty as you had, that you might be able to point to the rules that says as much.
I got quotes!
None of the abilities have wording to the effect of "either now or any time in the future, choose...".
It looks like they all simply have "Choose..."
This implies that the choice is made when the ability is gained.
So... in short there is no way for a level 17 bard to add the wish spell to their spell list, other than taking the 18th level of bard?
That is correct. A 17th level bard got their last magical secrets at level 14, when they could only cast 7th level spells. They could not have selected a spell of a level which they could not cast at 14th level. Their highest magical secret would be 7th level, and those would only be the ones gained at 14th character level.
A bard cannot cast 9th level spells until character level 17, and so must use magical secrets gained after that level (the ones granted at 18th level would work) to select 9th level spells.
You cannot trade magical secrets for non-bard spells. Magical secrets count as bard spells, but you can only retrain bard spells, meaning you can only drop a magical secret and replace it with another bard spell (which technically still, for your character, includes whatever your magical secret spell was, I think).
Possibly a way around this would be to take 4 levels of sorcerer, then bard up to 14. At that time, you would have a 9th level spell slot available due to multiclassing. You would still be character level 18, but only Bard level 14.
Although this is an old thread, this reply isn't correct. The text of magical secrets says:
"A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table"
You can't use spell slots gained through multiclassing to unlock access to higher level magical secrets, the spells have to be of a level you can cast AS a bard only.