Basically, under my interpretation, Difficult Terrain is related to your Speed, so I'm reading Difficult Terrain in the context of Movement and Position.
And well, Push pushes you, and the same for Thunderwave: you're blasted away, possibly without even touching the ground. Neither effect says 10 ft of movement or 10 ft of your Speed, really (*). I used "forced movement" as just a common way of referring to it, but it's not an official term AFAIK.
Also, you could consider those effects override how movement works.
That being said, I'm not against the ruling you guys are commenting on. It's just not my view or understanding.
Oh, no, don't get me wrong; I can see your point of view. And like you describe, there are scenarios where it makes conceptual sense. (Although, if Thunderwave ignores difficult terrain, does that mean it can't trigger Spike Growth damage?) While we discuss forced movement versus voluntary movement in various contexts, I haven't been able to find any actual mention in a rulebook. If that was a defined concept somewhere, it might provide guidance.
Forced Movement is from the past (edition). In 5E push or pull are not described within Movement and Position and don't rely on Speed. On the other hand, unwilling movement is, since the creature moves on its own volution.
The wording for Difficult Terrain changed in the core rules revision though, which removes any reference to Speed and therefore makes it more open to different interpretations where regardless how moving into one cost 1 extra foot. But i'd be surprised if it was intended.
The wording for Difficult Terrain changed in the core rules revision though, which removes any reference to Speed and therefore makes it more open to different interpretations where regardless how moving into one cost 1 extra foot. But i'd be surprised if it was intended.
Combat rarely takes place in bare rooms or on featureless plains. Boulder-strewn caverns, briar-choked forests, treacherous staircases — the setting of a typical fight contains difficult terrain.
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.
Low furniture, rubble, undergrowth, steep stairs, snow, and shallow bogs are examples of difficult terrain. The space of another creature, whether hostile or not, also counts as difficult terrain.
AFAIR it's always been an additional 'tax' of +1 foot of movement per foot moved.
Basically, under my interpretation, Difficult Terrain is related to your Speed, so I'm reading Difficult Terrain in the context of Movement and Position.
And well, Push pushes you, and the same for Thunderwave: you're blasted away, possibly without even touching the ground. Neither effect says 10 ft of movement or 10 ft of your Speed, really (*). I used "forced movement" as just a common way of referring to it, but it's not an official term AFAIK.
Also, you could consider those effects override how movement works.
That being said, I'm not against the ruling you guys are commenting on. It's just not my view or understanding.
Oh, no, don't get me wrong; I can see your point of view. And like you describe, there are scenarios where it makes conceptual sense. (Although, if Thunderwave ignores difficult terrain, does that mean it can't trigger Spike Growth damage?) While we discuss forced movement versus voluntary movement in various contexts, I haven't been able to find any actual mention in a rulebook. If that was a defined concept somewhere, it might provide guidance.
Yeah, no problem at all, adventurer! For that reason I cannot say my ruling is the valid one or even if it's right at all.
Regarding Spike Growth, I guess I should apply the same ruling, but let's see another opinion:
[...] Spike Growth is a 20-foot Sphere that can't move. A creature takes damage from it if any of the following happen:
The creature enters the area, either willingly or forcibly
The creature moves within the area, either willingly or forcibly
The creature takes damage for every five feet it moves in the area, with no per-turn limit. There is no saving throw to resist it, but no damage is dealt if the creature stays in one spot within it.
But in any case, it's different from "enters", as clarified in our conversation here:
Spirit Guardians is a 15-foot Emanation centered on the caster that moves around with the caster. It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation
The creature moves such that they are in the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
The creature is only subject to this effect the first time one of these things happens on a turn. The creature takes full damage if they fail the save and half damage if they succeed.
This isn't technically true either, but I don't know if there was an errata between the post and now.
It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation
The creature moves such that they are inenters the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
wagnarokkr's original explanation would not trigger on forced movement, but the spell does not care how you enter the emanation so go ahead and drag and push foes into the emanation.
Just to clarify, when I said "moves", that is what I meant: moving for any reason, including forced movement.
The wording for Difficult Terrain changed in the core rules revision though, which removes any reference to Speed and therefore makes it more open to different interpretations where regardless how moving into one cost 1 extra foot. But i'd be surprised if it was intended.
Combat rarely takes place in bare rooms or on featureless plains. Boulder-strewn caverns, briar-choked forests, treacherous staircases — the setting of a typical fight contains difficult terrain.
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.
Low furniture, rubble, undergrowth, steep stairs, snow, and shallow bogs are examples of difficult terrain. The space of another creature, whether hostile or not, also counts as difficult terrain.
AFAIR it's always been an additional 'tax' of +1 foot of movement per foot moved.
It was mentioned in the Adventuring chapter, which is odd, TBH:
The travel speeds given in the Travel Pace table assume relatively simple terrain: roads, open plains, or clear dungeon corridors. But adventurers often face dense forests, deep swamps, rubble-filled ruins, steep mountains, and ice-covered ground--all considered difficult terrain.
You move at half speed in difficult terrain--moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed--so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.
The wording for Difficult Terrain changed in the core rules revision though, which removes any reference to Speed and therefore makes it more open to different interpretations where regardless how moving into one cost 1 extra foot. But i'd be surprised if it was intended.
The wording for Difficult Terrain changed in the core rules revision though, which removes any reference to Speed and therefore makes it more open to different interpretations where regardless how moving into one cost 1 extra foot. But i'd be surprised if it was intended.
Combat rarely takes place in bare rooms or on featureless plains. Boulder-strewn caverns, briar-choked forests, treacherous staircases — the setting of a typical fight contains difficult terrain.
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.
Low furniture, rubble, undergrowth, steep stairs, snow, and shallow bogs are examples of difficult terrain. The space of another creature, whether hostile or not, also counts as difficult terrain.
AFAIR it's always been an additional 'tax' of +1 foot of movement per foot moved.
It was mentioned in the Adventuring chapter, which is odd, TBH:
The travel speeds given in the Travel Pace table assume relatively simple terrain: roads, open plains, or clear dungeon corridors. But adventurers often face dense forests, deep swamps, rubble-filled ruins, steep mountains, and ice-covered ground--all considered difficult terrain.
You move at half speed in difficult terrain--moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed--so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.
That is probably from where we adopted this saying :)
But all in all, i think treating it as an extra works better, especially when movement is further impeded such as when Climbing or Crawling.
The wording for Difficult Terrain changed in the core rules revision though, which removes any reference to Speed and therefore makes it more open to different interpretations where regardless how moving into one cost 1 extra foot. But i'd be surprised if it was intended.
Combat rarely takes place in bare rooms or on featureless plains. Boulder-strewn caverns, briar-choked forests, treacherous staircases — the setting of a typical fight contains difficult terrain.
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.
Low furniture, rubble, undergrowth, steep stairs, snow, and shallow bogs are examples of difficult terrain. The space of another creature, whether hostile or not, also counts as difficult terrain.
AFAIR it's always been an additional 'tax' of +1 foot of movement per foot moved.
It was mentioned in the Adventuring chapter, which is odd, TBH:
The travel speeds given in the Travel Pace table assume relatively simple terrain: roads, open plains, or clear dungeon corridors. But adventurers often face dense forests, deep swamps, rubble-filled ruins, steep mountains, and ice-covered ground--all considered difficult terrain.
You move at half speed in difficult terrain--moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed--so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.
That is probably from where we adopted this saying :)
But all in all, i think treating it as an extra works better, especially when movement is further impeded such as when Climbing or Crawling.
That's for travel pace though, which modifies the base movement rules and shouldn't be used as a point of reference for movement in combat.
Perhaps we can look to the Opportunity Attacks section to reverse engineer a "Forced Movement" definition?
Avoiding Opportunity Attacks. You can avoid provoking an Opportunity Attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don’t provoke an Opportunity Attack when you teleport or when you are moved without using your movement, action, Bonus Action, or Reaction. For example, you don’t provoke an Opportunity Attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe’s reach or if you fall past an enemy.
So, if Forced Movement is a term from previous editions, perhaps we can add it to an Unofficial Rules Glossary as:
Forced Movement
Forced movement occurs when a creature is moved without using their movement, action, Bonus Action, or Reaction. For example, if an explosion hurls you away or if you fall past an enemy, this is forced movement.
Note that this take does not rely solely on movement. If you move up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction, it is not Forced Movement.
If that can be accepted as an unofficial definition, I still feel like there are two takes:
Effects that cause Forced Movement don't expend movement so Difficult Terrain doesn't apply (I believe this is TarodNet's take)
Under this take, moving up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction would logically also not be affected by Forced Movement Difficult Terrain. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you ignore Difficult Terrain.
Effects that cause Forced Movement create their own "movement resource" when they say "move up to x feet" and this movement is affected by Difficult Terrain as normal.
Under this take, moving up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction would logically also be affected by Forced Movement Difficult Terrain. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you move 7.5 feet in Difficult Terrain.
I think working this out puts me in the second group.
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 that's good to me. FYI Here's what 4E Force Movement was like;
Ex. "Ignore Difficult Terrain: Forced movement isn’t hindered by difficult terrain."
Forced movement
Pull, push, and slide
Certain powers and effects allow you to pull, push, or slide a target.
Pull: When you pull a creature, each square you move it must bring it nearer to you.
Push: When you push a creature, each square you move it must place it farther away from you.
Slide: When you slide a creature, there’s no restriction on the direction you can move it.
Forced movement
Whether you’re pulling, pushing, or sliding a target, certain rules govern all forced movement.
Line of Effect: You must have line of effect to any square you pull, push, or slide a creature into.
Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies how many squares you can move a target. You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically.
Modifiers: Certain powers, effects, or class/race features will increase or decrease the amount of distance the target is forcibly moved. For example, a dwarf automatically reduces any forced movement's distance by 1 if they desire.
Specific Destination: Some powers don’t specify a distance in squares but instead specify a destination, such as “adjacent” (a square adjacent to you).
No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions.
Ignore Difficult Terrain: Forced movement isn’t hindered by difficult terrain.
Not a Move: Forced movement doesn’t count against a target’s ability to move on its turn. A target’s speed is irrelevant to the distance you move it.
Clear Path: Forced movement can’t move a target into a space it couldn’t enter by walking. The target can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.
Catching Yourself: If you’re forced over a precipice or a pit, you can try to catch yourself before you fall. See Falling.
Swapping Places: Some powers let you swap places with a target. You slide the target so that its space overlaps your space, and then you shift so your space includes at least one square that the target just left. Different rules may apply to teleportation.
Perhaps we can look to the Opportunity Attacks section to reverse engineer a "Forced Movement" definition?
Avoiding Opportunity Attacks. You can avoid provoking an Opportunity Attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don’t provoke an Opportunity Attack when you teleport or when you are moved without using your movement, action, Bonus Action, or Reaction. For example, you don’t provoke an Opportunity Attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe’s reach or if you fall past an enemy.
So, if Forced Movement is a term from previous editions, perhaps we can add it to an Unofficial Rules Glossary as:
Forced Movement
Forced movement occurs when a creature is moved without using their movement, action, Bonus Action, or Reaction. For example, if an explosion hurls you away or if you fall past an enemy, this is forced movement.
Note that this take does not rely solely on movement. If you move up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction, it is not Forced Movement.
If that can be accepted as an unofficial definition, I still feel like there are two takes:
Effects that cause Forced Movement don't expend movement so Difficult Terrain doesn't apply (I believe this is TarodNet's take)
Under this take, moving up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction would logically also not be affected by Forced Movement. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you ignore Difficult Terrain. [...]
Well, not exactly. The examples I gave before interact with Difficult terrain because you're using your movement, except for "The target is pushed 15 feet straight away from you" case. In some of these examples, you use your Reaction or Bonus Action.
Forceful Blow. The targetis pushed15 feet straight away from you. Youcan then moveup to half your Speed straight toward the target without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
Elemental Strikes. [...] On a failed save, you can move the target up to 10 feet toward or away from you, as elemental energy swirls around it.
But I'd say that applying the Unofficial Rules Glossary, which I like:
Forced Movement
Forced movement occurs when a creature is moved without using their movement, action, Bonus Action, or Reaction. For example, if an explosion hurls you away or if you fall past an enemy, this is forced movement.
Doesn't lead to this? -> "Moving up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction would logically also not be affected by Forced Movement. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you ignore Difficult Terrain"
If that can be accepted as an unofficial definition, I still feel like there are two takes:
Effects that cause Forced Movement don't expend movement so Difficult Terrain doesn't apply (I believe this is TarodNet's take)
Under this take, moving up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction would logically also not be affected by Forced Movement. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you ignore Difficult Terrain. [...]
Well, not exactly. The examples I gave before interact with Difficult terrain because you're using your movement, except for "The target is pushed 15 feet straight away from you" case. In some of these examples, you use your Reaction or Bonus Action.
Forceful Blow. The targetis pushed15 feet straight away from you. Youcan then moveup to half your Speed straight toward the target without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
Elemental Strikes. [...] On a failed save, you can move the target up to 10 feet toward or away from you, as elemental energy swirls around it.
These are the examples I was referring to. The target is moved without using their movement, action, bonus action, or reaction and for that reason (I think) you don't think Difficult Terrain applies. Is that correct?
But I'd say that applying the Unofficial Rules Glossary, which I like:
Forced Movement
Forced movement occurs when a creature is moved without using their movement, action, Bonus Action, or Reaction. For example, if an explosion hurls you away or if you fall past an enemy, this is forced movement.
Doesn't lead to this? -> "Moving up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction would logically also not be affected by Forced Movement. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you ignore Difficult Terrain"
Le Sigh. I meant "Difficult Terrain" when I said "Forced Movement" in the bullets, but I think you figured that out. I corrected the original.
This is not an application of Forced Movement, but my understanding of your position on why Difficult Terrain doesn't apply to Forced Movement. Since you are not expending movement based on your speed, Difficult Terrain doesn't apply or am I misunderstanding?
Let's say we have a Harengon using Rabbit Hop (ignoring whether it is one jump or multiple jumps and whether jumps are affected by difficult terrain) with a proficiency bonus of 4 (20 feet), this is using a Bonus Action so it provokes an Attack of Opportunity, but since it is not using "movement" and certainly not movement based on speed, does Difficult Terrain apply (again ignoring the separate question of whether Difficult Terrain applies to jumps)?
That is one example ability, but there may be others.
Since you are moving a set distance, do you also think Difficult Terrain doesn't apply?
If you rule differently, does that change your opinion on Forced Movement?
[...] These are the examples I was referring to. The target is moved without using their movement, action, bonus action, or reaction and for that reason (I think) you don't think Difficult Terrain applies. Is that correct?
Is it bad if I say "no" to that question? :( Because those examples involve your movement in some way:
Maneuvering Attack: "... That creature can use its Reaction to move up to half its Speed without provoking an Opportunity Attacks from the target of your attack."
Level 7: Relentless Avenger: " ... You can then move up to half your Speed as part of the same Reaction. This movement doesn’t provoke Opportunity Attacks."
I see a pattern here. But Push or Shove doesn't say anything similar. They, let's say, displace you using an external force, without mentioning movement or referring to your Speed.
But I'd say that applying the Unofficial Rules Glossary, which I like:
Forced Movement
Forced movement occurs when a creature is moved without using their movement, action, Bonus Action, or Reaction. For example, if an explosion hurls you away or if you fall past an enemy, this is forced movement.
Doesn't lead to this? -> "Moving up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction would logically also not be affected by Forced Movement. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you ignore Difficult Terrain"
Le Sigh. I meant "Difficult Terrain" when I said "Forced Movement" in the bullets, but I think you figured that out. I corrected the original.
Don't worry!
This is not an application of Forced Movement, but my understanding of your position on why Difficult Terrain doesn't apply to Forced Movement. Since you are not expending movement based on your speed, Difficult Terrain doesn't apply or am I misunderstanding?
But you're expending movement based on your Speed, or at least the words "move", "movement" and sometimes Speed are used in the game features.
Let's say we have a Harengon using Rabbit Hop (ignoring whether it is one jump or multiple jumps and whether jumps are affected by difficult terrain) with a proficiency bonus of 4 (20 feet), this is using a Bonus Action so it provokes an Attack of Opportunity, but since it is not using "movement" and certainly not movement based on speed, does Difficult Terrain apply (again ignoring the separate question of whether Difficult Terrain applies to jumps)?
Well, Rabbit Hop says "without provoking opportunity attacks", but I get what you're saying.
But yeah, to me, Rabbit Hop overrides the general jumping rules, similar to the 2024 Jump spell, and Difficult Terrain doesn't apply for both cases. If it's interesting or useful in any way, I left the following information in the thread Jump Spell and distance some time ago (I’m adding blue emphasis now):
Next answer is from Creature Evolutions (the original article is no longer available, and I'm wondering why it wasn't included in the SAC):
When a harengon uses Rabbit Hop, does the trait’s jump expend movement? The Rabbit Hop trait lets a harengon jump as a bonus action, and that jump doesn’t consume any of the harengon’s normal movement. That fact is why the trait has a limited number of uses between long rests. If you compare the wording of Rabbit Hop to the wording of the long and high jump rules in the Player’s Handbook, you’ll see that those rules explicitly expend movement, whereas Rabbit Hop doesn’t.
Is Rabbit Hop a high jump or a long jump? The jump of Rabbit Hop is neither a high jump nor a long jump. If it were either, its text would say so.
Does the jump spell benefit Rabbit Hop? Yes, the jump spell can affect the jump distance of Rabbit Hop. If you cast that spell on a harengon, enjoy the magnificent leaps!
Are you required to jump the full distance of Rabbit Hop? You don’t have to jump the full distance of Rabbit Hop when you use it. We will clarify that intent in future printings of the Rabbit Hop trait.
Since you are moving a set distance, do you also think Difficult Terrain doesn't apply?
My POV isn't about a set or fixed distance, but if the game feature tells you to use your movement (as mentioned before, Speed is sometimes used to calculate the score).
Other examples where Difficult Terrain should interact are:
[...] These are the examples I was referring to. The target is moved without using their movement, action, bonus action, or reaction and for that reason (I think) you don't think Difficult Terrain applies. Is that correct?
Is it bad if I say "no" to that question? :( Because those examples involve your movement in some way:
No. I had to hop to the Harengon because I couldn't find another example that didn't use movement so the examples you listed weren't in question. Everything was move up to your speed or half your speed or similar.
This is not an application of Forced Movement, but my understanding of your position on why Difficult Terrain doesn't apply to Forced Movement. Since you are not expending movement based on your speed, Difficult Terrain doesn't apply or am I misunderstanding?
But you're expending movement based on your Speed, or at least the words "move", "movement" and sometimes Speed are used in the game features.
I'm only concerned with the examples that would be something like "as a bonus action move up to 15 feet" (a set distance with no reference to Speed) or something or, I guess, "this does not consume any movement".
If it is also the use of "move" or "movement" then, if an effect "moves" an opponent some distance, that is forced movement, would it be affected by Difficult Terrain? (I can't think of an example that fits this so it's a hypothetical for now.)
[...] These are the examples I was referring to. The target is moved without using their movement, action, bonus action, or reaction and for that reason (I think) you don't think Difficult Terrain applies. Is that correct?
Is it bad if I say "no" to that question? :( Because those examples involve your movement in some way:
No. I had to hop to the Harengon because I couldn't find another example that didn't use movement so the examples you listed weren't in question. Everything was move up to your speed or half your speed or similar.
This is not an application of Forced Movement, but my understanding of your position on why Difficult Terrain doesn't apply to Forced Movement. Since you are not expending movement based on your speed, Difficult Terrain doesn't apply or am I misunderstanding?
But you're expending movement based on your Speed, or at least the words "move", "movement" and sometimes Speed are used in the game features.
I'm only concerned with the examples that would be something like "as a bonus action move up to 15 feet" (a set distance with no reference to Speed) or something or, I guess, "this does not consume any movement".
Maybe an example of this can be found in the one proposed by Plaguescarred: Bait and Switch. In this specific case, I'd say Difficult Terrain doesn't interact with the willing creature, just with you.
But we could use this thread to discuss more specific examples when we find them.
If it is also the use of "move" or "movement" then, if an effect "moves" an opponent some distance, that is forced movement, would it be affected by Difficult Terrain? (I can't think of an example that fits this so it's a hypothetical for now.)
PS. Thank you so much for your time and for this interesting conversation sharpening the rules, and creating new ones! :)
It's always a pleasure! When I get off work, it is always refreshing to hop on for conversations like these.
Same!
And I want to be honest here: putting aside the Unofficial Force Movement Rules, just using the official ones, your ruling is easier to explain or adjudicate than mine.
I'm only concerned with the examples that would be something like "as a bonus action move up to 15 feet" (a set distance with no reference to Speed) or something or, I guess, "this does not consume any movement".
Maybe an example of this can be found in the one proposed by Plaguescarred: Bait and Switch. In this specific case, I'd say Difficult Terrain doesn't interact with the willing creature, just with you.
I would agree there. It's a little weird how it refers to your movement, but I think that's just because it is activated as part of movement and not as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction. It feels a bit like spending movement for a teleport, like the Cartographer class can do with Portal Jump, but I don't think that's the intention.
If it is also the use of "move" or "movement" then, if an effect "moves" an opponent some distance, that is forced movement, would it be affected by Difficult Terrain? (I can't think of an example that fits this so it's a hypothetical for now.)
Oh snap! It is but it's also a new Harengon hole. There was a thread where we were discussing whether creatures have movement outside of their turn. Dissonant Whispers depends on creatures having off-turn movement, no? Is it worth bring up over there?
And I want to be honest here: putting aside the Unofficial Force Movement Rules, just using the official ones, your ruling is easier to explain or adjudicate than mine.
Thank you. That's definitely a merit to strive for.
Oh, no, don't get me wrong; I can see your point of view. And like you describe, there are scenarios where it makes conceptual sense. (Although, if Thunderwave ignores difficult terrain, does that mean it can't trigger Spike Growth damage?) While we discuss forced movement versus voluntary movement in various contexts, I haven't been able to find any actual mention in a rulebook. If that was a defined concept somewhere, it might provide guidance.
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My houserulings.
Forced Movement is from the past (edition). In 5E push or pull are not described within Movement and Position and don't rely on Speed. On the other hand, unwilling movement is, since the creature moves on its own volution.
The wording for Difficult Terrain changed in the core rules revision though, which removes any reference to Speed and therefore makes it more open to different interpretations where regardless how moving into one cost 1 extra foot. But i'd be surprised if it was intended.EDIT To Strikethrough bad memory
I'm looking at the 2014 rules for Difficult Terrain in the 2014 PHB (Chapter 9: Combat > Movement and Position > Difficult Terrain) and I'm not seeing any mention of speed there either?
AFAIR it's always been an additional 'tax' of +1 foot of movement per foot moved.
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Yeah, no problem at all, adventurer! For that reason I cannot say my ruling is the valid one or even if it's right at all.
Regarding Spike Growth, I guess I should apply the same ruling, but let's see another opinion:
But in any case, it's different from "enters", as clarified in our conversation here:
It was mentioned in the Adventuring chapter, which is odd, TBH:
You're right i totally misremembered because at the table we say we "move at half speed" in Difficult Terrain.
That is probably from where we adopted this saying :)
But all in all, i think treating it as an extra works better, especially when movement is further impeded such as when Climbing or Crawling.
But i can't blame my players, we still say things like Attack of Opportunity, Backstabb, Observation, Magic-user etc... 😃
That's for travel pace though, which modifies the base movement rules and shouldn't be used as a point of reference for movement in combat.
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Totally agree with you Davyd!
Perhaps we can look to the Opportunity Attacks section to reverse engineer a "Forced Movement" definition?
So, if Forced Movement is a term from previous editions, perhaps we can add it to an Unofficial Rules Glossary as:
Note that this take does not rely solely on movement. If you move up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction, it is not Forced Movement.
If that can be accepted as an unofficial definition, I still feel like there are two takes:
Forced MovementDifficult Terrain. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you ignore Difficult Terrain.Forced MovementDifficult Terrain. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you move 7.5 feet in Difficult Terrain.I think working this out puts me in the second group.
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My houserulings.
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 that's good to me. FYI Here's what 4E Force Movement was like;
Ex. "Ignore Difficult Terrain: Forced movement isn’t hindered by difficult terrain."
Forced movement
Pull, push, and slide
Certain powers and effects allow you to pull, push, or slide a target.
Forced movement
Whether you’re pulling, pushing, or sliding a target, certain rules govern all forced movement.
Well, not exactly. The examples I gave before interact with Difficult terrain because you're using your movement, except for "The target is pushed 15 feet straight away from you" case. In some of these examples, you use your Reaction or Bonus Action.
But I'd say that applying the Unofficial Rules Glossary, which I like:
Doesn't lead to this? -> "Moving up a set number of feet as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction would logically also not be affected by Forced Movement. For example, if you can move 15 feet as a Bonus Action, you ignore Difficult Terrain"
These are the examples I was referring to. The target is moved without using their movement, action, bonus action, or reaction and for that reason (I think) you don't think Difficult Terrain applies. Is that correct?
Le Sigh. I meant "Difficult Terrain" when I said "Forced Movement" in the bullets, but I think you figured that out. I corrected the original.
This is not an application of Forced Movement, but my understanding of your position on why Difficult Terrain doesn't apply to Forced Movement. Since you are not expending movement based on your speed, Difficult Terrain doesn't apply or am I misunderstanding?
Let's say we have a Harengon using Rabbit Hop (ignoring whether it is one jump or multiple jumps and whether jumps are affected by difficult terrain) with a proficiency bonus of 4 (20 feet), this is using a Bonus Action so it provokes an Attack of Opportunity, but since it is not using "movement" and certainly not movement based on speed, does Difficult Terrain apply (again ignoring the separate question of whether Difficult Terrain applies to jumps)?
That is one example ability, but there may be others.
Since you are moving a set distance, do you also think Difficult Terrain doesn't apply?
If you rule differently, does that change your opinion on Forced Movement?
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Unofficial Force Movement Rules Glossary even encompass things like position swap, such as the Bait & Switch Battlemaster Maneuver for example.
Is it bad if I say "no" to that question? :( Because those examples involve your movement in some way:
Level 6: Inspiring Movement: "... expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to move up to half your Speed"
Level 7: Instinctive Pounce: "... you can move up to half your Speed."
Level 3: Remarkable Athlete: " ... after you score a Critical Hit, you can move up to half your Speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks."
Maneuvering Attack: "... That creature can use its Reaction to move up to half its Speed without provoking an Opportunity Attacks from the target of your attack."
Level 7: Relentless Avenger: " ... You can then move up to half your Speed as part of the same Reaction. This movement doesn’t provoke Opportunity Attacks."
I see a pattern here. But Push or Shove doesn't say anything similar. They, let's say, displace you using an external force, without mentioning movement or referring to your Speed.
Don't worry!
But you're expending movement based on your Speed, or at least the words "move", "movement" and sometimes Speed are used in the game features.
Well, Rabbit Hop says "without provoking opportunity attacks", but I get what you're saying.
But yeah, to me, Rabbit Hop overrides the general jumping rules, similar to the 2024 Jump spell, and Difficult Terrain doesn't apply for both cases. If it's interesting or useful in any way, I left the following information in the thread Jump Spell and distance some time ago (I’m adding blue emphasis now):
My POV isn't about a set or fixed distance, but if the game feature tells you to use your movement (as mentioned before, Speed is sometimes used to calculate the score).
Other examples where Difficult Terrain should interact are:
- Ready a move: "... you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it"
- Spells like Command (Flee), Compulsion, Confusion (behaviour #1), Dissonant Whispers, Eyebite (Panicked) or Fear.
PS. Thank you so much for your time and for this interesting conversation sharpening the rules, and creating new ones! :)
No. I had to hop to the Harengon because I couldn't find another example that didn't use movement so the examples you listed weren't in question. Everything was move up to your speed or half your speed or similar.
I'm only concerned with the examples that would be something like "as a bonus action move up to 15 feet" (a set distance with no reference to Speed) or something or, I guess, "this does not consume any movement".
If it is also the use of "move" or "movement" then, if an effect "moves" an opponent some distance, that is forced movement, would it be affected by Difficult Terrain? (I can't think of an example that fits this so it's a hypothetical for now.)
It's always a pleasure! When I get off work, it is always refreshing to hop on for conversations like these.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Oh, ok, I see.
Maybe an example of this can be found in the one proposed by Plaguescarred: Bait and Switch. In this specific case, I'd say Difficult Terrain doesn't interact with the willing creature, just with you.
But we could use this thread to discuss more specific examples when we find them.
I think Dissonant Whispers fits this, right?
Same!
And I want to be honest here: putting aside the Unofficial Force Movement Rules, just using the official ones, your ruling is easier to explain or adjudicate than mine.
I would agree there. It's a little weird how it refers to your movement, but I think that's just because it is activated as part of movement and not as an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction. It feels a bit like spending movement for a teleport, like the Cartographer class can do with Portal Jump, but I don't think that's the intention.
Oh snap! It is but it's also a new Harengon hole. There was a thread where we were discussing whether creatures have movement outside of their turn. Dissonant Whispers depends on creatures having off-turn movement, no? Is it worth bring up over there?
Thank you. That's definitely a merit to strive for.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.