Me and my group had a discussion on the following scenario.
a half-orc paladin has 2 HP left. A giant poisonous snake attacks and gets a critical attack 1d4+4 dmg which comes to 10 points of damage (rolled 3). The paladin fails his con save against the poison and takes another 3d6 damage (rolled 14).
A few questions here.
Does the half-orc relentless endurance kick in after the initial damage only to go unconscious with the second damage?
If this were a character without the relentless endurance, does the secondary damage cause a loss of a death saving throw since the character went unconscious after the initial damage?
Even though the snake rolled a critical hit, nothing changes with the damage/save of the poison. It is still a 3d6 correct?
Me and my group had a discussion on the following scenario.
a half-orc paladin has 2 HP left. A giant poisonous snake attacks and gets a critical attack 1d4+4 dmg which comes to 10 points of damage (rolled 3). The paladin fails his con save against the poison and takes another 3d6 damage (rolled 14).
A few questions here.
Does the half-orc relentless endurance kick in after the initial damage only to go unconscious with the second damage?
If this were a character without the relentless endurance, does the secondary damage cause a loss of a death saving throw since the character went unconscious after the initial damage?
Even though the snake rolled a critical hit, nothing changes with the damage/save of the poison. It is still a 3d6 correct?
First off, there is no "second" damage. The fact that there is a saving throw associated with the poison damage is irrelevant. It's a rider on the Bite attack roll, not a discrete action. The poison is part of the same attack, and it is resolved at the same time. Dealing damage of multiple types does not mean they are separate attacks, nor is it uncommon. The saving throw is just to determine whether they take full/half rolled poison damage.
What is the Paladin's max HP? If the total damage of the attack dropped the Paladin to negative max HP, they're dead. It sounds like you're playing at relatively low level, so that's a very real possibility. This isn't an optional rule variant either.
Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
For example, a cleric with a maximum of 12 hit points currently has 6 hit points. If she takes 18 damage from an attack, she is reduced to 0 hit points, but 12 damage remains. Because the remaining damage equals her hit point maximum, the cleric dies.
If they aren't straight up dead, Relentless Endurance kicks in after the entire attack is resolved. With or without this trait, there is no loss of death saving throw. It was one attack.
Since it is one attack, and the snake rolled a critical hit on it, the poison damage dice are also doubled. The snake dealt 2d4+4 piercing + 6d6 poison damage. The paladin is probably dead.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The portion about the poison damage being doubled in regard to this attack being a critical is not true. The fact that the damage rolls are separated by a saving throw divides them up as separate damage rolls, even though the poison save relies on a successful hit to be forced in the first place. Saving throws and checks cannot crit. This is a very fine distance within the rules that rarely matters, but you have indeed found a niche scenario where this matters. An example of poison damage that would be doubled on a crit would be the bite of a flying snake, as there is no save forced separating that poison damage from the attack roll.
This is actually quite complicated because of the specific features involved.
Relentless Endurance. “When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead. You can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest.”
The half orcs feature doesn’t cost any actions or resources, and has the timing specified to “when you are reduced to 0 hitpoints, but not killed out right” so in this example, in the time it takes for the snake to resolve its attack, the orc must choose to pass the instant it hits 0 hitpoints from the bite, if not it will already be at 0 hitpoints and so it cannot choose to use the feature for the failed poison save.
another point of interest is that if this same scenario were to pop up later when the paladin has its aura available, the aura stops when the paladin is no longer conscious. So if the paladin half orc doesn’t use this ability later during a similar scenario, it along with its allies would subsequently loose that charisma bonus to saves.
question 1. Yes
question 2. Yes
question 3. Yes, but... there are some features in the game that would add damage to that poison roll even though crits don’t. one feature in particular would almost be like “double dipping”. The ranger beast master has a subclass feature called rangers companion. In that feature it gives the beast master the ability to pick a giant poisones snake. Later on Int his feature, it stipulates that the chosen beast enjoys the benefit of adding the Rangers proficiency modifier to a number of things, including that beasts damage rolls. Because of the fact that the poison damage in this creatures bite is specifically separated by a saving throw, it enjoys the benefit of being able to utilize the Rangers proficiency bonus twice with each successful attack roll. This makes the giant snake a very powerful companion, and it’s actually quite a bit more powerful than intended and is an example of why wizards of the coast has had such a difficult time balancing the beast master class. And part of the reasoning why there is reluctance in releasing beasts of that CR range for low level adventures.
All damage is applied at once. So the target takes 24 damage, not 10 then 14.
Damage that is determined by saves are not effected by critical hits. The RAW is not very clear on this and may vary by DM, but that is RAI.
Actually, there are at least two JC tweets (I know, I know, but still...) that are fairly clear on the subject, both from RAW and RAI:
RAW Tweet: "Any damage dice delivered by a critical hit—as opposed to a saving throw—are rolled twice."
RAI Tweet: "DMG Poisons: If you crit with a poison coated weapon, do you double poison dice because crit, or not because saving throw?" / "The intent is no. The saving throw, not the attack, determines whether the poison takes effect after a hit."
So for me, there is no unclarity here, you have the RAW and the RAI.
All damage is applied at once. So the target takes 24 damage, not 10 then 14.
Damage that is determined by saves are not effected by critical hits. The RAW is not very clear on this and may vary by DM, but that is RAI.
Actually, there are at least two JC tweets (I know, I know, but still...) that are fairly clear on the subject, both from RAW and RAI:
RAW Tweet: "Any damage dice delivered by a critical hit—as opposed to a saving throw—are rolled twice."
RAI Tweet: "DMG Poisons: If you crit with a poison coated weapon, do you double poison dice because crit, or not because saving throw?" / "The intent is no. The saving throw, not the attack, determines whether the poison takes effect after a hit."
So for me, there is no unclarity here, you have the RAW and the RAI.
Tweets are not RAW, always just RAI.
Those tweets are also contradictory as, though I'm sure he was unaware, the first tweet specifically addresses the point--damage dice delivered by a crit are doubled.
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once.
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
Yes, I do in fact understand (and even support) the rationale of damage from saving throws not being able to score a critical hit. You are trading the all-or-nothing-or double of attack rolls for all-or-some of saving throws, but that's not exactly what's happening here.
There is no all-or-some with the poison damage. It is delivered by the attack roll, and if you miss your attack roll nothing happens to the creature at all. There is no save for half-damage if you miss the attack; you either hit or miss entirely, and that interaction puts any damage dice from a rider on that attack under the umbrella of critical hits.
The poison damage of Giant Poisonous Snake would need to be entirely removed from the Bite action, and recorded as a feature that can be activated on a successful attack in order for it to be ineligible for critical damage. Something like "Venom: when you hit a creature with Bite, the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one." Even then, it's still effectively a rider to an attack roll, just as Sneak Attack or Divine Smite are.
Going further, without regard to criticals, the saving throw itself has no impact on the number of damage dice that will be rolled. A successful (non-crit) attack deals 3d6 poison damage whether the target passes or fails the saving throw. You don't roll 1.5d6; you roll the full amount of dice, and passing the save means you only take half of the total poison damage rolled. That isn't incompatible with the effect of criticals, as criticals specifically do double the number of dice being rolled. Passing the save wouldn't drop the (crit) 6d6 back down to 3d6; you'd still just take half of the total rolled, which could still be quite low.
As it is now, all those damage dice are the result of a critical hit, and they are all doubled. The saving throw only has the ability to reduce the total result.
To be abundantly clear, there is no (to my knowledge) printed rule anywhere in 5e stating that damage involving a saving throw cannot be affected by a critical hit. There is only the rule specifically on critical hits which says any other damage dice involved in the attack are doubled. The poison damage dice of Giant Poisonous Snake is incontrovertibly involved in the attack roll of the Bite action. There is no universe in which a non-existent rule overrides a clear printed rule.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You keep using tweets as the foundation for your argument, which is inherently invalid for a foundational premise. Their only value is as an informative aid on the intention of existing, published rules. They do not establish rules where none exist.
There is no rule stating damage dice involving a saving throw are ineligible for doubling on a critical hit. Link to a section from the PHB or DMG which explicitly says that, or you have no counter-argument to make. Your preconception about an imaginary rule does not make it real. Show me a real rule.
There is a rule stating that any damage dice involved in the attack are doubled on a critical hit. This is factually true, and incontrovertible. The rule says, "If the attack involves other damage dice, [...], you roll those dice twice as well." It does not say, "If the attack involves other damage dice, butnotany damage dice involving a saving throw..." Rules do what they say they do, and they do not do what they don't say.
The snake's bite attack is one attack. The effects of the attack are not independent; piercing & poison damage happen at the exact same time--when you hit. The attack explicitly involves poison damage dice, as a direct result of making an attack roll. It can crit, and that's all there is to it. The burden of proof is on you to point to an actualrule that explicitly says otherwise, not on me or anyone else to justify the rules which are actually published.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
They were never considered RAW; people only thought that, which is why they have to throw disclaimers now.
Bite.Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d4 + 4) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
It's one attack. The entire thing is one attack. It all happens when you hit with the attack, not separately. They aren't distinct features. They aren't even distinct sentences. Poison happens when you hit with the attack, regardless of the saving throw.
It's not "Make a bite attack, and resolve the piercing damage. Now attempt to poison the target." You've already poisoned the target the moment you bit them. You roll all of the damage dice at the same time, and the number of poison damage dice is doubled because the attack roll resulted in a critical hit. Now the target rolls a saving throw to determine how much of the rolled poison damage they actually take.
There is norule stating damage dice involving a saving throw (in any way) are ineligible for being doubled by a critical hit. There is only the critical hit rule itself, and that does not exclude any damage that also has a saving throw associated with it. Show me a published rule.
Critical Hits
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once.
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
There is no reality in which the poison damage from a Giant Poisonous Snake's bite attack does not meet the criteria for being "involved" with the attack. Pretending that there's no text after "(1d4 + 4) piercing damage" doesn't mean it isn't there. There is no scenario in which you roll piercing damage without also rolling poison damage, or vice versa; you get both, or you get neither. The entirety of the attack is the direct result of a single attack roll.
Did the creature make an attack roll? Yes.
Does the target take poison damage as a direct result of hitting with the attack roll? Yes.
Does a saving throw have any impact on how many damage dice are rolled? No, it's a modifier. It applies to the end result after rolling damage.
How many damage dice are rolled for damage? 1d4 piercing & 3d6 poison. This is the direct result of scoring a hit.
Did the attack roll result in a critical hit? Yes.
How many damage dice are rolled for damage on a critical hit? 2d4 piercing & 6d6 poison. This is the direct result of scoring a critical hit.
Roll damage.
Roll the DC 11 Constitution saving throw.
Did the target pass their con save?
Yes. Applying modifiers, the target takes the full rolled total (2d4+4) for piercing damage, and half the rolled total (6d6) for poison damage.
No. Applying modifiers, the target takes the full rolled total (2d4+4) for piercing damage, and the full rolled total (6d6) for poison damage.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
"Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage."
And your point is..? That damage isn't damage? Or that damage isn't part of the attack causing it? This phrase does not mean what you think it means. "Some attacks cause (x)" means that (x) is part of the attack. There is no mention of saving throws, and that is the absolute crux of this issue. The quoted phrase directly supports my argument, not yours. Direct causation.
I know that English is not your first language, and I do take that into consideration when interacting with you. I do not attribute any issues of communication to your intelligence, or any aspect of your personal character. That said, I am beginning to think that is at least part of the reason why you cannot see that your position is simply untrue.
For the nth time, there is no rule stating damage dice involving a saving throw (in any way) are ineligible for being doubled by a critical hit. There is no rule stating this in any printed book. You have not cited a rule stating this. What you have cited does not, in any way, imply what you think it does. You are taking the absence of a specific rule stating that damage from a source that involves a saving throw can be affected by a critical hit as proof that they cannot. That is literally jumping to conclusions. Tweets do not ever create rules.
Making an Attack
Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location.
2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.
None of this says that any additional damage, caused directly by a successful attack roll, is not part of the attack if there is also a saving throw involved. The specific text of the Bite attack does not say this either. Damage is damage. It is caused by a successful attack roll. It is part of the attack.
Critical Hits
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once.
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
None of this says that any additional damage, caused directly by a successful attack roll, is not part of the attack if there is also a saving throw involved. There is no reference to any source of damage dice that would not be included in the critical. "If the attack involves other damage dice" encompasses all damage dice involved. There is no ambiguity here; it is incredibly straight-forward.
There is one question that D&D5e asks: did you make an attack roll? Yes, and it was a critical hit.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I can’t find it at the moment but I swear there was a JC tweet that said if it isn’t in the SAC it isn’t RAW. But I’m at work on a break and don’t have time to delve into a search.
Personally, I read it as Sigred. If you are making an attack, and crit, all dice are doubled.
But I can see it the other way as well. Consult your DM. Guess I’m not much help in a Rules forum 😂
The entire game is divided into 3 rolls. Ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls.
the instant a portion of an ability or feature asks you to do one of these 3 things, that’s what the feature becomes.
“If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.”
is the saving throw you roll when subjected to poison considered an attack roll? No.
thats a lot of text you guys are putting out though. Tricky stuff.
The problem with the tweet is that for a poisoned weapon, the damage is delivered by both an attack and a save. It's clear that damage only delivered by a save can't roll critical damage (since it's not possible to crit).
Checking SAC, the only rulings about criticals seem to be
Ability checks can't crit.
Spell attacks can crit.
Non-damage effects can't crit (the example was 1d4 strength damage from a shadow)
Vorpal sword triggers on a roll of 20, not a critical hit, so effects that increase crit chance don't help.
Thus, RAW, the poison damage is other damage dice associated with the attack, and are doubled like any other associated damage (there isn't really any wiggle room there). RAI may be different. If the attack applies a status effect that causes later damage (such as setting things on fire), that would not be doubled.
On the original question, I would resolve the entire attack as a single damage instance, meaning relentless endurance works normally and there is no risk of a second death check but instant death to massive damage may be a worry, but RAW is not clear.
The problem with the tweet is that for a poisoned weapon, the damage is delivered by both an attack and a save. It's clear that damage only delivered by a save can't roll critical damage (since it's not possible to crit).
Checking SAC, the only rulings about criticals seem to be
Ability checks can't crit.
Spell attacks can crit.
Non-damage effects can't crit (the example was 1d4 strength damage from a shadow)
Vorpal sword triggers on a roll of 20, not a critical hit, so effects that increase crit chance don't help.
Thus, RAW, the poison damage is other damage dice associated with the attack, and are doubled like any other associated damage (there isn't really any wiggle room there). RAI may be different. If the attack applies a status effect that causes later damage (such as setting things on fire), that would not be doubled.
I don’t think it’s nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
The poison damage isn’t really delivered by both an attack roll and a saving throw. It’s just delivered by the save. The save is delivered by the attack roll. This isn’t just pedantry. There’s a clear conceptual delineation between the attack’s damage and the poison, a separate effect. The poison effect in toto is “associated” with the attack roll, but the poison’s damage roll per se isn’t: it’s associated with the saving throw.
I’m not arguing for this particularly vehemently. I’ve read your and Sigred’s positions and think they’re as well-founded as they can be. But “as they can be” isn’t much, because this isn’t something the rules address specifically. We have to try to tease a ruling out of them, and there is some wiggle room; quite a bit, I think.
The problem with the tweet is that for a poisoned weapon, the damage is delivered by both an attack and a save. It's clear that damage only delivered by a save can't roll critical damage (since it's not possible to crit).
Checking SAC, the only rulings about criticals seem to be
Ability checks can't crit.
Spell attacks can crit.
Non-damage effects can't crit (the example was 1d4 strength damage from a shadow)
Vorpal sword triggers on a roll of 20, not a critical hit, so effects that increase crit chance don't help.
Thus, RAW, the poison damage is other damage dice associated with the attack, and are doubled like any other associated damage (there isn't really any wiggle room there). RAI may be different. If the attack applies a status effect that causes later damage (such as setting things on fire), that would not be doubled.
I don’t think it’s nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
The poison damage isn’t really delivered by both an attack roll and a saving throw. It’s just delivered by the save.
It's part of the 'hit' block in the power description. Anything in the hit block is delivered by an attack.
The problem with the tweet is that for a poisoned weapon, the damage is delivered by both an attack and a save. It's clear that damage only delivered by a save can't roll critical damage (since it's not possible to crit).
Checking SAC, the only rulings about criticals seem to be
Ability checks can't crit.
Spell attacks can crit.
Non-damage effects can't crit (the example was 1d4 strength damage from a shadow)
Vorpal sword triggers on a roll of 20, not a critical hit, so effects that increase crit chance don't help.
Thus, RAW, the poison damage is other damage dice associated with the attack, and are doubled like any other associated damage (there isn't really any wiggle room there). RAI may be different. If the attack applies a status effect that causes later damage (such as setting things on fire), that would not be doubled.
I don’t think it’s nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
The poison damage isn’t really delivered by both an attack roll and a saving throw. It’s just delivered by the save.
It's part of the 'hit' block in the power description. Anything in the hit block is delivered by an attack.
Again, I understand your position and find it to be well-founded. My response is everything you cut out of my quoted post.
No, the attack causes only the damage listed in the Hit feature of an attack, by the very definition: "Hit: 6 (1d4 + 4) piercing damage"
You've cut that sentence short. If you quote the whole bite attack - the full stop associated with the Hit feature isn't until the very end - which means that the poison damage is part of the Hit feature.
Bite.Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d4 + 4) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
or by sentences:
Bite.
Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target.
Hit: 6 (1d4 + 4) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
If the poison damage were another sentence beyond the Hit feature I would agree with you that it doesn't get doubled - but it is a part of the Hit feature - noted by the presences of an and.
There is a tweet before 2015 and was considered RAW at the time. I agree that after this it was replaced by Sage's Advice but again the clarification from JC is clear about this. It does not say my tweets were never RAW, it says, they were no longer RAW after 2015 when I started Sage Advice.
...
I think DxJxC tried to point this out, but RAW very specifically means "Rules As Written," and in the context of D&D 5e, that means as written appearing in one of the rule books or errata to those books. Additionally, the core rules only include PHB, DMG, and MM -- every other source is optional. Even before Jeremy wrote the intro to the Sage Advice Compendium, no source other than books and their errata were considered RAW. That is still the case (SAC entries are still not considered rules, but rules advice).
Most of the rest of your argument is compelling on this issue, Lyxen. I would recommend that you shouldn't make your case weaker by adding statements that make your entire post easy to dismiss wholesale.
I'm trying to find the exact rule, but I'm pretty sure a damage 'source' is anything gated behind an attack roll or saving throw (with the exception of things like Magic Missile and falling damage that don't have an attack roll or saving throw).
As such, if you have an attack that also has a saving throw against secondary damage, those are considered two different damage sources. You can score a critical hit on the attack roll, doubling the damage dice for that, but it won't affect the damage dice that are linked to the saving throw because you can't crit on saving throws.
Regarding the OPs original question, and assuming I'm remembering correctly (source/RAW to come hopefully), the answers would be:
Relentless Endurance kicks in on the damage from the attack roll and if they fail the save, they'd go unconscious
For any other PC, they'd go unconscious from the damage from the attack roll, then lose a death save from the saving throw damage
The critical hit would double the damage dice for the first lot of damage, but not the damage contingent on the saving throw
Most of the rest of your argument is compelling on this issue, Lyxen. I would recommend that you shouldn't make your case weaker by adding statements that make your entire post easy to dismiss wholesale.
Thanks man, I appreciate it and the gentle advice. In the end, what is important is that this debate has gone on for long in various forums, and I don't believe that it has been sorted one way or another with absolute clarity.
My point here is for people to realise that there is another way to read the RAW and one which is in line with the RAI. After that, as usual, each DM can make his choice depending on his preferences and then to each his own. :D
You do realize that the tweet you have been referring to explicitly states that JC's tweets are not rules? Neither RAW nor RAI?
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Me and my group had a discussion on the following scenario.
a half-orc paladin has 2 HP left. A giant poisonous snake attacks and gets a critical attack 1d4+4 dmg which comes to 10 points of damage (rolled 3). The paladin fails his con save against the poison and takes another 3d6 damage (rolled 14).
A few questions here.
First off, there is no "second" damage. The fact that there is a saving throw associated with the poison damage is irrelevant. It's a rider on the Bite attack roll, not a discrete action. The poison is part of the same attack, and it is resolved at the same time. Dealing damage of multiple types does not mean they are separate attacks, nor is it uncommon. The saving throw is just to determine whether they take full/half rolled poison damage.
What is the Paladin's max HP? If the total damage of the attack dropped the Paladin to negative max HP, they're dead. It sounds like you're playing at relatively low level, so that's a very real possibility. This isn't an optional rule variant either.
If they aren't straight up dead, Relentless Endurance kicks in after the entire attack is resolved. With or without this trait, there is no loss of death saving throw. It was one attack.
Since it is one attack, and the snake rolled a critical hit on it, the poison damage dice are also doubled. The snake dealt 2d4+4 piercing + 6d6 poison damage. The paladin is probably dead.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
All damage is applied at once. So the target takes 24 damage, not 10 then 14.
Damage that is determined by saves are not effected by critical hits. The RAW is not very clear on this and may vary by DM, but that is RAI.
The portion about the poison damage being doubled in regard to this attack being a critical is not true. The fact that the damage rolls are separated by a saving throw divides them up as separate damage rolls, even though the poison save relies on a successful hit to be forced in the first place. Saving throws and checks cannot crit. This is a very fine distance within the rules that rarely matters, but you have indeed found a niche scenario where this matters. An example of poison damage that would be doubled on a crit would be the bite of a flying snake, as there is no save forced separating that poison damage from the attack roll.
This is actually quite complicated because of the specific features involved.
Relentless Endurance.
“When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead. You can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest.”
The half orcs feature doesn’t cost any actions or resources, and has the timing specified to “when you are reduced to 0 hitpoints, but not killed out right” so in this example, in the time it takes for the snake to resolve its attack, the orc must choose to pass the instant it hits 0 hitpoints from the bite, if not it will already be at 0 hitpoints and so it cannot choose to use the feature for the failed poison save.
another point of interest is that if this same scenario were to pop up later when the paladin has its aura available, the aura stops when the paladin is no longer conscious. So if the paladin half orc doesn’t use this ability later during a similar scenario, it along with its allies would subsequently loose that charisma bonus to saves.
question 1. Yes
question 2. Yes
question 3. Yes, but... there are some features in the game that would add damage to that poison roll even though crits don’t. one feature in particular would almost be like “double dipping”. The ranger beast master has a subclass feature called rangers companion. In that feature it gives the beast master the ability to pick a giant poisones snake. Later on Int his feature, it stipulates that the chosen beast enjoys the benefit of adding the Rangers proficiency modifier to a number of things, including that beasts damage rolls. Because of the fact that the poison damage in this creatures bite is specifically separated by a saving throw, it enjoys the benefit of being able to utilize the Rangers proficiency bonus twice with each successful attack roll. This makes the giant snake a very powerful companion, and it’s actually quite a bit more powerful than intended and is an example of why wizards of the coast has had such a difficult time balancing the beast master class. And part of the reasoning why there is reluctance in releasing beasts of that CR range for low level adventures.
Tweets are not RAW, always just RAI.
There's no poison damage unless the paladin licked the poisonous snake and thus ingested the poison...
If you bite the monster and you die it was poisonous; if it bites you and you die it was venomous. ;-)
"Semper in faecibus sumus, solo profundum variat"
playing since 1986
Those tweets are also contradictory as, though I'm sure he was unaware, the first tweet specifically addresses the point--damage dice delivered by a crit are doubled.
Yes, I do in fact understand (and even support) the rationale of damage from saving throws not being able to score a critical hit. You are trading the all-or-nothing-or double of attack rolls for all-or-some of saving throws, but that's not exactly what's happening here.
There is no all-or-some with the poison damage. It is delivered by the attack roll, and if you miss your attack roll nothing happens to the creature at all. There is no save for half-damage if you miss the attack; you either hit or miss entirely, and that interaction puts any damage dice from a rider on that attack under the umbrella of critical hits.
The poison damage of Giant Poisonous Snake would need to be entirely removed from the Bite action, and recorded as a feature that can be activated on a successful attack in order for it to be ineligible for critical damage. Something like "Venom: when you hit a creature with Bite, the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one." Even then, it's still effectively a rider to an attack roll, just as Sneak Attack or Divine Smite are.
Going further, without regard to criticals, the saving throw itself has no impact on the number of damage dice that will be rolled. A successful (non-crit) attack deals 3d6 poison damage whether the target passes or fails the saving throw. You don't roll 1.5d6; you roll the full amount of dice, and passing the save means you only take half of the total poison damage rolled. That isn't incompatible with the effect of criticals, as criticals specifically do double the number of dice being rolled. Passing the save wouldn't drop the (crit) 6d6 back down to 3d6; you'd still just take half of the total rolled, which could still be quite low.
As it is now, all those damage dice are the result of a critical hit, and they are all doubled. The saving throw only has the ability to reduce the total result.
To be abundantly clear, there is no (to my knowledge) printed rule anywhere in 5e stating that damage involving a saving throw cannot be affected by a critical hit. There is only the rule specifically on critical hits which says any other damage dice involved in the attack are doubled. The poison damage dice of Giant Poisonous Snake is incontrovertibly involved in the attack roll of the Bite action. There is no universe in which a non-existent rule overrides a clear printed rule.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You keep using tweets as the foundation for your argument, which is inherently invalid for a foundational premise. Their only value is as an informative aid on the intention of existing, published rules. They do not establish rules where none exist.
There is no rule stating damage dice involving a saving throw are ineligible for doubling on a critical hit. Link to a section from the PHB or DMG which explicitly says that, or you have no counter-argument to make. Your preconception about an imaginary rule does not make it real. Show me a real rule.
There is a rule stating that any damage dice involved in the attack are doubled on a critical hit. This is factually true, and incontrovertible. The rule says, "If the attack involves other damage dice, [...], you roll those dice twice as well." It does not say, "If the attack involves other damage dice, but not any damage dice involving a saving throw..." Rules do what they say they do, and they do not do what they don't say.
The snake's bite attack is one attack. The effects of the attack are not independent; piercing & poison damage happen at the exact same time--when you hit. The attack explicitly involves poison damage dice, as a direct result of making an attack roll. It can crit, and that's all there is to it. The burden of proof is on you to point to an actual rule that explicitly says otherwise, not on me or anyone else to justify the rules which are actually published.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
They were never considered RAW; people only thought that, which is why they have to throw disclaimers now.
It's one attack. The entire thing is one attack. It all happens when you hit with the attack, not separately. They aren't distinct features. They aren't even distinct sentences. Poison happens when you hit with the attack, regardless of the saving throw.
It's not "Make a bite attack, and resolve the piercing damage. Now attempt to poison the target." You've already poisoned the target the moment you bit them. You roll all of the damage dice at the same time, and the number of poison damage dice is doubled because the attack roll resulted in a critical hit. Now the target rolls a saving throw to determine how much of the rolled poison damage they actually take.
There is no rule stating damage dice involving a saving throw (in any way) are ineligible for being doubled by a critical hit. There is only the critical hit rule itself, and that does not exclude any damage that also has a saving throw associated with it. Show me a published rule.
There is no reality in which the poison damage from a Giant Poisonous Snake's bite attack does not meet the criteria for being "involved" with the attack. Pretending that there's no text after "(1d4 + 4) piercing damage" doesn't mean it isn't there. There is no scenario in which you roll piercing damage without also rolling poison damage, or vice versa; you get both, or you get neither. The entirety of the attack is the direct result of a single attack roll.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
And your point is..? That damage isn't damage? Or that damage isn't part of the attack causing it? This phrase does not mean what you think it means. "Some attacks cause (x)" means that (x) is part of the attack. There is no mention of saving throws, and that is the absolute crux of this issue. The quoted phrase directly supports my argument, not yours. Direct causation.
I know that English is not your first language, and I do take that into consideration when interacting with you. I do not attribute any issues of communication to your intelligence, or any aspect of your personal character. That said, I am beginning to think that is at least part of the reason why you cannot see that your position is simply untrue.
For the nth time, there is no rule stating damage dice involving a saving throw (in any way) are ineligible for being doubled by a critical hit. There is no rule stating this in any printed book. You have not cited a rule stating this. What you have cited does not, in any way, imply what you think it does. You are taking the absence of a specific rule stating that damage from a source that involves a saving throw can be affected by a critical hit as proof that they cannot. That is literally jumping to conclusions. Tweets do not ever create rules.
None of this says that any additional damage, caused directly by a successful attack roll, is not part of the attack if there is also a saving throw involved. The specific text of the Bite attack does not say this either. Damage is damage. It is caused by a successful attack roll. It is part of the attack.
None of this says that any additional damage, caused directly by a successful attack roll, is not part of the attack if there is also a saving throw involved. There is no reference to any source of damage dice that would not be included in the critical. "If the attack involves other damage dice" encompasses all damage dice involved. There is no ambiguity here; it is incredibly straight-forward.
There is one question that D&D5e asks: did you make an attack roll? Yes, and it was a critical hit.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I can’t find it at the moment but I swear there was a JC tweet that said if it isn’t in the SAC it isn’t RAW. But I’m at work on a break and don’t have time to delve into a search.
Personally, I read it as Sigred. If you are making an attack, and crit, all dice are doubled.
But I can see it the other way as well. Consult your DM. Guess I’m not much help in a Rules forum 😂
The entire game is divided into 3 rolls. Ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls.
the instant a portion of an ability or feature asks you to do one of these 3 things, that’s what the feature becomes.
“If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.”
is the saving throw you roll when subjected to poison considered an attack roll? No.
thats a lot of text you guys are putting out though. Tricky stuff.
The problem with the tweet is that for a poisoned weapon, the damage is delivered by both an attack and a save. It's clear that damage only delivered by a save can't roll critical damage (since it's not possible to crit).
Checking SAC, the only rulings about criticals seem to be
Thus, RAW, the poison damage is other damage dice associated with the attack, and are doubled like any other associated damage (there isn't really any wiggle room there). RAI may be different. If the attack applies a status effect that causes later damage (such as setting things on fire), that would not be doubled.
On the original question, I would resolve the entire attack as a single damage instance, meaning relentless endurance works normally and there is no risk of a second death check but instant death to massive damage may be a worry, but RAW is not clear.
I don’t think it’s nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
The poison damage isn’t really delivered by both an attack roll and a saving throw. It’s just delivered by the save. The save is delivered by the attack roll. This isn’t just pedantry. There’s a clear conceptual delineation between the attack’s damage and the poison, a separate effect. The poison effect in toto is “associated” with the attack roll, but the poison’s damage roll per se isn’t: it’s associated with the saving throw.
I’m not arguing for this particularly vehemently. I’ve read your and Sigred’s positions and think they’re as well-founded as they can be. But “as they can be” isn’t much, because this isn’t something the rules address specifically. We have to try to tease a ruling out of them, and there is some wiggle room; quite a bit, I think.
It's part of the 'hit' block in the power description. Anything in the hit block is delivered by an attack.
Again, I understand your position and find it to be well-founded. My response is everything you cut out of my quoted post.
You've cut that sentence short. If you quote the whole bite attack - the full stop associated with the Hit feature isn't until the very end - which means that the poison damage is part of the Hit feature.
If the poison damage were another sentence beyond the Hit feature I would agree with you that it doesn't get doubled - but it is a part of the Hit feature - noted by the presences of an and.
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I think DxJxC tried to point this out, but RAW very specifically means "Rules As Written," and in the context of D&D 5e, that means as written appearing in one of the rule books or errata to those books. Additionally, the core rules only include PHB, DMG, and MM -- every other source is optional. Even before Jeremy wrote the intro to the Sage Advice Compendium, no source other than books and their errata were considered RAW. That is still the case (SAC entries are still not considered rules, but rules advice).
Most of the rest of your argument is compelling on this issue, Lyxen. I would recommend that you shouldn't make your case weaker by adding statements that make your entire post easy to dismiss wholesale.
I'm trying to find the exact rule, but I'm pretty sure a damage 'source' is anything gated behind an attack roll or saving throw (with the exception of things like Magic Missile and falling damage that don't have an attack roll or saving throw).
As such, if you have an attack that also has a saving throw against secondary damage, those are considered two different damage sources. You can score a critical hit on the attack roll, doubling the damage dice for that, but it won't affect the damage dice that are linked to the saving throw because you can't crit on saving throws.
Regarding the OPs original question, and assuming I'm remembering correctly (source/RAW to come hopefully), the answers would be:
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You do realize that the tweet you have been referring to explicitly states that JC's tweets are not rules? Neither RAW nor RAI?