As says by the title, this question is regarding the feature ''Fasthand of the thieft mostly regarding the use of an object.
Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an Object action.''
In PHB
Use an Object
You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
Can a rogue throw a flask of oil or an alchemist fire as a bonus action using the thieft fast hands?
Can a rogue use its bonus action (Fast Hands) to preform the Use Object Action to throw a vial of Acid?
Remember that Use an Object is an action, just like making an Attack is an action. This is more in line with palming an object, quietly picking a lock, and generally being a sneaky rogue. Not gaming the game to get an extra attack. Rogues do enough damage as it is.
This is a neat question. I haven't seen this come up before, cool find!
This is mainly a quirk in the rules. And odd "But is it an attack" situation.
I think you could throw the vial/alchemist fire/oil without issue within the general direction you want it to go. It would not be an attack action, but it also doesn't make sense that I'd swipe at someone and then huck an object generally towards them but not at them.
Personally? I'd ask for an ranged attack roll at disadvantage, no bonus. This is a quick flick of the wrist that's not as concentrated on hitting a target.
The problem is when I oppose the fact that a mage can throw two daggers in the same turn since both weapons have the property "light & thrown'' but that to throw two flask it's impossible for a thief who has fast hand
It is a RAW problem of course, any DM can decide what to do with it, still it is a perfect example of a strange application of the rules
Can a rogue throw a flask of oil or an alchemist fire as a bonus action using the thieft fast hands?
Can a rogue use its bonus action (Fast Hands) to preform the Use Object Action to throw a vial of Acid?
Yes.
When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.
Acid, poison, oil, a chemist fire, etc are objects that require your action to use and don't require a different action instead. So yes, that is RAW and RAI.
Note using magic items is a different rule and doesn't use the use an object action, so drinking potions, etc still require an action. This is also RAI...
Can a rogue throw a flask of oil or an alchemist fire as a bonus action using the thieft fast hands?
Can a rogue use its bonus action (Fast Hands) to preform the Use Object Action to throw a vial of Acid?
Yes.
When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.
Acid, poison, oil, a chemist fire, etc are objects that require your action to use and don't require a different action instead. So yes, that is RAW and RAI.
Note using magic items is a different rule and doesn't use the use an object action, so drinking potions, etc still require an action. This is also RAI...
I would rule that 'use' in those cases is pouring the acid, applying the poison to a weapon, etc... which, while they might cause damage to an object or person, would not constitute an attack. So the rogue in question could apply poison to their dagger with Fast Hands, or pour acid on a lock, but that's it.
Throwing a vial of the same, with the intent of hitting a target, would constitute an attack, and would be treated as such.
Can a rogue throw a flask of oil or an alchemist fire as a bonus action using the thieft fast hands?
Can a rogue use its bonus action (Fast Hands) to preform the Use Object Action to throw a vial of Acid?
Yes.
When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.
Acid, poison, oil, a chemist fire, etc are objects that require your action to use and don't require a different action instead. So yes, that is RAW and RAI.
Note using magic items is a different rule and doesn't use the use an object action, so drinking potions, etc still require an action. This is also RAI...
I would rule that 'use' in those cases is pouring the acid, applying the poison to a weapon, etc... which, while they might cause damage to an object or person, would not constitute an attack. So the rogue in question could apply poison to their dagger with Fast Hands, or pour acid on a lock, but that's it.
Throwing a vial of the same, with the intent of hitting a target, would constitute an attack, and would be treated as such.
Throwing it to damage is an attack. It even says so. But it does not use the attack action. According the object's description, it requires an action to use.
If it had said "when you take the attack action, you can throw..." then it wouldn't be a use object action, but it doesn't, so it is.
As an action, you can splash the contents of this vial onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw the vial up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the acid as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 acid damage.
The description of the item does not say as an attack action. It just says action. The Use an Object Action states it is what you take for items that require your action to use. It does not have text to preclude items that involve an attack roll.
Again, requiring an attack roll is not synonymous with requiring the attack action. Just look at spells like Eldritch Blast. They involve attack rolls, but ignore the attack action entirely.
Fast Hands does not include any special text to preclude uses of the Use an Object Action that require an attack roll. Without any, all uses of the Use an Object Action are in play, which includes throwing vials of acid and the like.
The problem is when I oppose the fact that a mage can throw two daggers in the same turn since both weapons have the property "light & thrown'' but that to throw two flask it's impossible for a thief who has fast hand
It is a RAW problem of course, any DM can decide what to do with it, still it is a perfect example of a strange application of the rules
No, they can't because a mage that does that is using two weapon fighting with weapons designed to be thrown, whereas a flask is a larger, more bulky object. So the rogue could throw those 2 knives too.
In parallele of this thread, I had a conversation with my group and here is the conclusion :
- throwing a flask or a vial is considered as a improvised weapon , therefor the attack action is used to determine the outcome of this action
- Flask, vial, and every object less than 1 lbs is considered as a ''light'' & ''thrown'' improvised weapon therefor are eligible to be throwned as a Bonus Action using the rule of the two-weapon fighting
It is ''homebrew'' but everyone seems happy and illogical situation have been rule out
Intentionally throwing a vial of acid at a target is an attack so no. Emptying a bag of ball bearings onto the floor is not an attack - even if someone then slips and falls on them - so yes.
As an action, you can splash the contents of this vial onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw the vial up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the acid as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 acid damage.
Use an Object
When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
There is no attack action involved. You can make an attack without using the attack action. There are plenty of examples in this game, many of which use the bonus action. Quick Toss Battlemasters can throw a javelin as a bonus action, Polearm Master can hit you with a halberd as a bonus action, but god forbid the Thief be able to throw a small vial of acid as a bonus action. RAW it is completely legal for a Thief to use Fast Hands in this way, and I don't buy the logic these house rules stand on either.
As an action, you can splash the contents of this vial onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw the vial up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the acid as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 acid damage.
Use an Object
When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
There is no attack action involved. You can make an attack without using the attack action. There are plenty of examples in this game, many of which use the bonus action. Quick Toss Battlemasters can throw a javelin as a bonus action, Polearm Master can hit you with a halberd as a bonus action, but god forbid the Thief be able to throw a small vial of acid as a bonus action. RAW it is completely legal for a Thief to use Fast Hands in this way, and I don't buy the logic these house rules stand on either.
If you are intentionally throwing acid on a persons face to deliberately cause them pain and harm you are very absolutely attacking them. You can try and say you are giving them a 'skin peel' or call it a 'refreshing facial wash' or any other phrase you wish to. It's an attack, and anyone with even an ounce of common sense would agree. The only people who wouldn't agree are people trying to bypass the rules to gain an extra attack by playing silly little word games.
I never said it wasn't an attack. That was never the argument I was trying to make. My point is that you can make an attack without using the attack action. The attack action is a completely different thing and is what people seem to think throwing a vial of acid involves. It doesn't. Throwing a vial of acid is an action, which then takes the form of an attack. Just like casting the spell Eldritch Blast is an action, which then takes the form of an attack. Because using the vial of acid is an action, stated very clearly in the rules of the item, it falls within the parameters of the Use an Object Action and therefore is a legal use of Fast Hands.
And to the logic of it: are you all allowing a crossbow expert to reload a handcrossbow and shoot it again as a bonus action? Because that takes way more manual dexterity than chucking a vial. I don't see why there is this need to limit the rogue to such a strict sense of realism when plenty of other game features let you do much more manually demanding actions with a bonus action. Are all of these getting thrown out of the window in these games? Because if not, this is quite unfair to the Thief.
There is no attack action involved. You can make an attack without using the attack action. There are plenty of examples in this game, many of which use the bonus action. Quick Toss Battlemasters can throw a javelin as a bonus action, Polearm Master can hit you with a halberd as a bonus action, but god forbid the Thief be able to throw a small vial of acid as a bonus action. RAW it is completely legal for a Thief to use Fast Hands in this way, and I don't buy the logic these house rules stand on either.
Both Polearm Master feat and Battle Master Quick Toss explicitly says they are an attach action using a bonus action -
Quick Toss
As a bonus action, you can expend one superiority die and make a ranged attackwith a weapon that has the thrown property. You can draw the weapon as part of making this attack. If you hit, add the superiority die to the weapon’s damage roll.
Polearm Master
When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attackwith the opposite end of the weapon. This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack. The weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4, and it deals bludgeoning damage.
You can't be any clearer than that, your entire argument that these two things are not attack actions and so Fast Hands should be allowed to make a bonus action attack that isn't an attack is completely and utterly flawed.
As an action, you can splash the contents of this vial onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw the vial up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the acid as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 acid damage.
There is no attack action involved. You can make an attack without using the attack action. There are plenty of examples in this game, many of which use the bonus action. Quick Toss Battlemasters can throw a javelin as a bonus action, Polearm Master can hit you with a halberd as a bonus action, but god forbid the Thief be able to throw a small vial of acid as a bonus action. RAW it is completely legal for a Thief to use Fast Hands in this way, and I don't buy the logic these house rules stand on either.
I have changed the emphasis on your quote regarding using a vial of acid to the correct part where it very explicitly says to use it you make a ranged attack. So lets stop playing silly games and trying to avoid entire chunks of sentences that you don't like because they don't support your view point.
You really didn't prove anything there Beardsinger.
The attack action is a distinct game term. It is a unique type of action, which many game features rely upon, including Extra Attack.
PHB
The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.
With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.
Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.
Quick Toss: It clearly states it uses your bonus action. To do so, you make a ranged attack. Stating it is a ranged attack does not equate to the action being an attack action.
Polearm Master: Again, the attack in question is clearly stated to take your bonus action. Taking the attack action beforehand is a prerequisite to be able to make this bonus action attack. It does not mean that the bonus action attack is now an attack action.
Again, I can't stress this enough. The attack action is a destinct game term and type of action, and will always be referred to as the "attack action" in the rules. Other types of actions, including bonus actions can allow you to make an attack. The vial of acid does not use the language "attack action". It is simply an action and therefore falls under the jurisdiction of the Use an Object Action.
Beardsinger I'm not ignoring anything. You have a pretty fundamental hole in your understanding of actions. You've gotten incredibly hostile incredibly quickly so I don't feel the need to continue this with you either. No skin off my back.
The problem is when I oppose the fact that a mage can throw two daggers in the same turn since both weapons have the property "light & thrown'' but that to throw two flask it's impossible for a thief who has fast hand
It is a RAW problem of course, any DM can decide what to do with it, still it is a perfect example of a strange application of the rules
A Wizard can throw two daggers in the same turn.
A Rogue can throw two daggers in the same turn.
A Wizard cannot throw two flasks at someone.
A Rogue cannot throw two flasks at someone.
There is nothing a Wizard can do (regarding thrown attacks) that a Rogue can't, so your argument that "a Rogue should be able to do it, because Rogues have Fast Hands and Wizards don't" does not apply. A Rogue also can't cast Mass Heal... should they be allowed to, because of Fast Hands? Of course not. The point is, Fast Hands does not allow you to make an extra attack (involving an attack roll) during your turn, so you can't use it as justification for anything that does involve an extra attack roll on your turn.
Now, as others have pointed out, there are some "attacks" (using the word colloquially) that do not involve attack rolls, which you could do using Fast Hands. Unfortunately, none of those are throwing a vial of acid at someone. You could, though, pour a flask of oil on the ground, or spill some ball bearings.
Hi everyone,
As says by the title, this question is regarding the feature ''Fasthand of the thieft mostly regarding the use of an object.
Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an Object action.''
In PHB
Use an Object
You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
Can a rogue throw a flask of oil or an alchemist fire as a bonus action using the thieft fast hands?
Can a rogue use its bonus action (Fast Hands) to preform the Use Object Action to throw a vial of Acid?
To throw it? Sure thing.
To make an Attack with it? Not so much...
Remember that Use an Object is an action, just like making an Attack is an action. This is more in line with palming an object, quietly picking a lock, and generally being a sneaky rogue. Not gaming the game to get an extra attack. Rogues do enough damage as it is.
This is a neat question. I haven't seen this come up before, cool find!
This is mainly a quirk in the rules. And odd "But is it an attack" situation.
I think you could throw the vial/alchemist fire/oil without issue within the general direction you want it to go. It would not be an attack action, but it also doesn't make sense that I'd swipe at someone and then huck an object generally towards them but not at them.
Personally? I'd ask for an ranged attack roll at disadvantage, no bonus. This is a quick flick of the wrist that's not as concentrated on hitting a target.
< Fighter Doc on the DumpStat Podcast! Click the Image to give us a listen.
The problem is when I oppose the fact that a mage can throw two daggers in the same turn since both weapons have the property "light & thrown'' but that to throw two flask it's impossible for a thief who has fast hand
It is a RAW problem of course, any DM can decide what to do with it, still it is a perfect example of a strange application of the rules
Yes.
Acid, poison, oil, a chemist fire, etc are objects that require your action to use and don't require a different action instead. So yes, that is RAW and RAI.
Note using magic items is a different rule and doesn't use the use an object action, so drinking potions, etc still require an action. This is also RAI...
I would rule that 'use' in those cases is pouring the acid, applying the poison to a weapon, etc... which, while they might cause damage to an object or person, would not constitute an attack. So the rogue in question could apply poison to their dagger with Fast Hands, or pour acid on a lock, but that's it.
Throwing a vial of the same, with the intent of hitting a target, would constitute an attack, and would be treated as such.
Throwing it to damage is an attack. It even says so. But it does not use the attack action. According the object's description, it requires an action to use.
If it had said "when you take the attack action, you can throw..." then it wouldn't be a use object action, but it doesn't, so it is.
Not all attacks require the attack action. https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/720728407730819072
Acid (vial)
The description of the item does not say as an attack action. It just says action. The Use an Object Action states it is what you take for items that require your action to use. It does not have text to preclude items that involve an attack roll.
Again, requiring an attack roll is not synonymous with requiring the attack action. Just look at spells like Eldritch Blast. They involve attack rolls, but ignore the attack action entirely.
Fast Hands does not include any special text to preclude uses of the Use an Object Action that require an attack roll. Without any, all uses of the Use an Object Action are in play, which includes throwing vials of acid and the like.
No, they can't because a mage that does that is using two weapon fighting with weapons designed to be thrown, whereas a flask is a larger, more bulky object. So the rogue could throw those 2 knives too.
In parallele of this thread, I had a conversation with my group and here is the conclusion :
- throwing a flask or a vial is considered as a improvised weapon , therefor the attack action is used to determine the outcome of this action
- Flask, vial, and every object less than 1 lbs is considered as a ''light'' & ''thrown'' improvised weapon therefor are eligible to be throwned as a Bonus Action using the rule of the two-weapon fighting
It is ''homebrew'' but everyone seems happy and illogical situation have been rule out
So does that mean you don't allow Thief rogues to use Fast Hands to throw vials of acid and ball bearings and the like?
Intentionally throwing a vial of acid at a target is an attack so no. Emptying a bag of ball bearings onto the floor is not an attack - even if someone then slips and falls on them - so yes.
There is no attack action involved. You can make an attack without using the attack action. There are plenty of examples in this game, many of which use the bonus action. Quick Toss Battlemasters can throw a javelin as a bonus action, Polearm Master can hit you with a halberd as a bonus action, but god forbid the Thief be able to throw a small vial of acid as a bonus action. RAW it is completely legal for a Thief to use Fast Hands in this way, and I don't buy the logic these house rules stand on either.
If you are intentionally throwing acid on a persons face to deliberately cause them pain and harm you are very absolutely attacking them. You can try and say you are giving them a 'skin peel' or call it a 'refreshing facial wash' or any other phrase you wish to. It's an attack, and anyone with even an ounce of common sense would agree. The only people who wouldn't agree are people trying to bypass the rules to gain an extra attack by playing silly little word games.
I never said it wasn't an attack. That was never the argument I was trying to make. My point is that you can make an attack without using the attack action. The attack action is a completely different thing and is what people seem to think throwing a vial of acid involves. It doesn't. Throwing a vial of acid is an action, which then takes the form of an attack. Just like casting the spell Eldritch Blast is an action, which then takes the form of an attack. Because using the vial of acid is an action, stated very clearly in the rules of the item, it falls within the parameters of the Use an Object Action and therefore is a legal use of Fast Hands.
And to the logic of it: are you all allowing a crossbow expert to reload a handcrossbow and shoot it again as a bonus action? Because that takes way more manual dexterity than chucking a vial. I don't see why there is this need to limit the rogue to such a strict sense of realism when plenty of other game features let you do much more manually demanding actions with a bonus action. Are all of these getting thrown out of the window in these games? Because if not, this is quite unfair to the Thief.
Both Polearm Master feat and Battle Master Quick Toss explicitly says they are an attach action using a bonus action -
Quick Toss
As a bonus action, you can expend one superiority die and make a ranged attack with a weapon that has the thrown property. You can draw the weapon as part of making this attack. If you hit, add the superiority die to the weapon’s damage roll.
Polearm Master
When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack. The weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4, and it deals bludgeoning damage.
You can't be any clearer than that, your entire argument that these two things are not attack actions and so Fast Hands should be allowed to make a bonus action attack that isn't an attack is completely and utterly flawed.
I have changed the emphasis on your quote regarding using a vial of acid to the correct part where it very explicitly says to use it you make a ranged attack. So lets stop playing silly games and trying to avoid entire chunks of sentences that you don't like because they don't support your view point.
You really didn't prove anything there Beardsinger.
The attack action is a distinct game term. It is a unique type of action, which many game features rely upon, including Extra Attack.
Again, I can't stress this enough. The attack action is a destinct game term and type of action, and will always be referred to as the "attack action" in the rules. Other types of actions, including bonus actions can allow you to make an attack. The vial of acid does not use the language "attack action". It is simply an action and therefore falls under the jurisdiction of the Use an Object Action.
Beardsinger I'm not ignoring anything. You have a pretty fundamental hole in your understanding of actions. You've gotten incredibly hostile incredibly quickly so I don't feel the need to continue this with you either. No skin off my back.
There is nothing a Wizard can do (regarding thrown attacks) that a Rogue can't, so your argument that "a Rogue should be able to do it, because Rogues have Fast Hands and Wizards don't" does not apply. A Rogue also can't cast Mass Heal... should they be allowed to, because of Fast Hands? Of course not. The point is, Fast Hands does not allow you to make an extra attack (involving an attack roll) during your turn, so you can't use it as justification for anything that does involve an extra attack roll on your turn.
Now, as others have pointed out, there are some "attacks" (using the word colloquially) that do not involve attack rolls, which you could do using Fast Hands. Unfortunately, none of those are throwing a vial of acid at someone. You could, though, pour a flask of oil on the ground, or spill some ball bearings.