I could use some help with timelines. Possible spoilers follow. Zariel led her army out of Elturel in 1354. The Companion appeared over Elturel 90 years later in 1444. It is currently 1495 or 1496. In what year did Zariel become Fallen and what year did she start making Zariel Tieflings? Since Zariel Tieflings are likely the youngest and smallest subrace of Tieflings, I am having a difficult time with how they came to be prevalent in Faerun and just what background hook such a character would realistically have. Would any of the Hellriders have been Zariel Tieflings? It seems that she could have created some during the Ride but I don't see any lore that suggests any detail as to their origin.
Zariel tieflings are problematic due to the timeline as you suggest. What I'd probably do, is tie her bloodline to her fall; any aasimar that she had running around before her fall spawned off Zariel tieflings instead of new aasimar.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
So basically transform all of the aasimar descended from Zariel into tieflings when she Falls? Would that automatically change their alignment as well? Or would you just say that after Zariel Falls, if any of her aasimar children have kids of their own they’re automatically born as tieflings?
Zariel tieflings don't need to be evil, so alignment would not need change. You could either change aasimar to tieflings, or just successive generations are both as tieflings.
If I recall the lore correctly, when Asmodeus took control of /all/ existing tiefling bloodlines via the Toril 13, I think that all existing tieflings (abyssal or otherwise) became asmodeus tieflings immediately. I don't recall if that is spelled out exactly though.
Using that same paradigm, existing Aasimar would become tieflings at the instant of the fall.
EDIT: You might rule that the original aasimar became /fallen/ assimar at the moment of the fall, and all of their children became zariel tieflings for subsequent generations.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm inclined to agree with crzyhawk here as it does make quite a bit of sense. I'm also a fan of the idea that the Hellriders that were loyal to Zariel were spared from slaughter after Zariel swore fealty to Asmodeus and were promptly tied to fall as their master did, becoming the Zariel variant of Tiefling.
With Zariel's fall being anywhere between 1354 and 1494, and planar travel being possible for the newly turned Hellrider Zariel tieflings and their offspring, you can easily place this variant in any of the area surrounding where Elturel once existed (and of course in the major cities along the Sword Coast).
Zariel tieflings don't need to be evil, so alignment would not need change. You could either change aasimar to tieflings, or just successive generations are both as tieflings.
If I recall the lore correctly, when Asmodeus took control of /all/ existing tiefling bloodlines via the Toril 13, I think that all existing tieflings (abyssal or otherwise) became asmodeus tieflings immediately. I don't recall if that is spelled out exactly though.
Using that same paradigm, existing Aasimar would become tieflings at the instant of the fall.
EDIT: You might rule that the original aasimar became /fallen/ assimar at the moment of the fall, and all of their children became zariel tieflings for subsequent generations.
Fascinating! Is all this stuff in Sword Coast Adventure Guide or is it from another source?
Some of it is from the SCAG, some is from the series of novels by Erin M Evans that starts with Brimstone Angels, which was written to help explain /why/ tieflings changed between 3e and 4e. You can piece most of it together from the web though.
The cliff notes version is, that in 2e and 3e, tieflings were /essentially/ the variant tiefling from the SCAG. At the end of 3e when Asmodeus wanted to become a god, he gathered together a group of tieflings called the Toril Thirteen who then performed a ritual. This ritual bound /all/ existing tieflings on Toril, and made them of Asmodeus' bloodline. So, the original tieflings which didn't have to have horns and tails, lost their original characteristics and became what we now recognize as PHB tieflings.
In 1358 DR, a warlock coven known as the Toril thirteen performed a ritual that cursed most tiefling lineages—those of demons, devils, hags, and rakshasas, among others—with the "blood of Asmodeus", changing their original lineage with that of the archdevil himself. This was done to make Asmodeus a "racial god", ensuring him enough followers to attain godly powers. After the Spellplague of 1385 DR, when Asmodeus became a god, the magic of the ritual took effect across all of Toril and afterwards most tieflings living in the 15th century DR were of the Asmodean lineage, all having a similar devilish appearance.
Prior to Asmodeus's ascension to godhood, the infernal blood could be diluted through intermarriage, but afterward, the union of a tiefling with another race always produced a tiefling child.
In the late years of the 15th century, tieflings of other bloodlines began to born again, but the Asmodean lineage was still the most numerous by a wide margin at the time.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Zariel tieflings are problematic due to the timeline as you suggest. What I'd probably do, is tie her bloodline to her fall; any aasimar that she had running around before her fall spawned off Zariel tieflings instead of new aasimar.
Thank you. So you think 1354? Thoughts on those humans and non-humans that followed her as part of the Ride? I would think those that remained by her side would transform, but IIRC, all of them were submitted to unending torture so they are not likely around, or breeding. Only those that fled would be in Faerun now. Any others would have to have been created by Zariel after the fact. I am trying to find a believable reason why there would be a Zariel tiefling living today that would have been also part of the ride. Since it was 150 years ago, I would think only the long lived (elves and dwarves) would still be around today. A re-skinned dwarven tiefling, for example.
At least two of Zariel's generals are still around; Haruman and Olanthuis. They are now narzugon devils. 1354 is what the articles I can find gives for a date. The ones who returned to Faerun are still humans. You run into some of the descendants of those who ran in the ADL Modules for avernus.
Zariel lost more than her army on Avernus. She also lost a hand, which was severed in battle. As her sword fell to the ground, Zariel ordered Yael, her most devoted general, to take the weapon and hide it, so that the devils would not destroy or corrupt it. Yael took the sword and fled, along with Zariel’s faithful hollyphant companion, Lulu. Zariel’s other two generals, Olanthius and Haruman, refused to leave Zariel’s side. All three were captured and sent to Nessus, the lowest of the Nine Hells. There, Zariel was brought before Asmodeus, who welcomed her with open arms. The Lord of the Nine commended Zariel for her battle prowess and the strength of her convictions. He offered her rulership of Avernus, much to Bel’s chagrin. By swearing fealty to Asmodeus and the Nine Hells, Zariel could bring her rage to bear against the demons and continue to fight in the Blood War, with legions of devils under her command. Zariel accepted Asmodeus’s terms, completing her fall from grace. Haruman followed his master into damnation willingly and was transformed into a narzugon devil, while Olanthius, who took his own life rather than bow before Asmodeus, was brought back to serve as a death knight under Zariel’s burning gaze.
As far as a tiefling being around, it's possible. From the Toril Thirteen, Caisys the vicelord was still around in 1487, as was Phrenike (although IIRC Phrenike was a lich by this time). There could be some lifestealing or am amulet of perpetual youth involved. Aasimar can live up to 160 years, it's not unrealistic that a very young aasimar who was turned into a tiefling is still around. An elf who was turned into a tiefling or a dwarf would be very plausible assuming they kept their original aging characteristic. Or, perhaps time just passes differently in the Nine Hells. Perhaps even a rider who died in the hells has their soul reborn into a Zariel Tiefling body, perhaps descended from a family member of the hellriders who fled back to Faerun?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
It is entirely possible that Zariel's bloodline of tieflings became prevalent for a completely different reason as mentioned in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. In the section about infernal cambions, page 21 I believe, it states that "Zariel and Geryon have a penchant for spawning cambions to serve as war leaders among their followers" meaning that the high number of Zariel tieflings may simply be due to the high number of children she's spawned. If they share her mindset, her direct spawn would then likely have many children of their own, so while her bloodline is young it would be widespread. It makes sense considering she's in charge of the front lines in the blood war and would need a high number of officers she could trust to carry out orders with minimal scheming. Not that a devil's children never scheme against their own parents, Glasya comes to mind, just that it makes a degree of sense.
It is entirely possible that Zariel's bloodline of tieflings became prevalent for a completely different reason as mentioned in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. In the section about infernal cambions, page 21 I believe, it states that "Zariel and Geryon have a penchant for spawning cambions to serve as war leaders among their followers" meaning that the high number of Zariel tieflings may simply be due to the high number of children she's spawned. If they share her mindset, her direct spawn would then likely have many children of their own, so while her bloodline is young it would be widespread. It makes sense considering she's in charge of the front lines in the blood war and would need a high number of officers she could trust to carry out orders with minimal scheming. Not that a devil's children never scheme against their own parents, Glasya comes to mind, just that it makes a degree of sense.
While valid, that would not seem to account for wny one would encounter them on the Prime Material plan, much less as a common adventurer.
While valid, that would not seem to account for wny one would encounter them on the Prime Material plan, much less as a common adventurer.
Entirely fair. My main speculation would be that "war leaders among their followers" could mean cultist followers on the material planes, not those participating directly in the blood war. Cambions can also plane shift with their innate spellcasting so that might be a contributing factor although I don't know how many vacation days soldiers of Avernus get so no idea how realistic it would be for a Cambion to just head to the material plane. My other thought would be that since Zariel has a number of erinyes under her command they may have had a hand in making more tieflings with a link to zariel despite it not actually being a direct lineage since we've seen similar things happen before with tieflings. I tend to use occam's razor when filling in gaps in lore even though D&D writing does tend to take a convoluted approach most of the time. It might even be a combination of the origins mentioned by everyone here so in the end I guess its just up to interpretation. The idea of holidays with great grandma Zariel is certainly entertaining though.
I could use some help with timelines. Possible spoilers follow. Zariel led her army out of Elturel in 1354. The Companion appeared over Elturel 90 years later in 1444. It is currently 1495 or 1496. In what year did Zariel become Fallen and what year did she start making Zariel Tieflings? Since Zariel Tieflings are likely the youngest and smallest subrace of Tieflings, I am having a difficult time with how they came to be prevalent in Faerun and just what background hook such a character would realistically have. Would any of the Hellriders have been Zariel Tieflings? It seems that she could have created some during the Ride but I don't see any lore that suggests any detail as to their origin.
Zariel tieflings are problematic due to the timeline as you suggest. What I'd probably do, is tie her bloodline to her fall; any aasimar that she had running around before her fall spawned off Zariel tieflings instead of new aasimar.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
So basically transform all of the aasimar descended from Zariel into tieflings when she Falls? Would that automatically change their alignment as well? Or would you just say that after Zariel Falls, if any of her aasimar children have kids of their own they’re automatically born as tieflings?
Zariel tieflings don't need to be evil, so alignment would not need change. You could either change aasimar to tieflings, or just successive generations are both as tieflings.
If I recall the lore correctly, when Asmodeus took control of /all/ existing tiefling bloodlines via the Toril 13, I think that all existing tieflings (abyssal or otherwise) became asmodeus tieflings immediately. I don't recall if that is spelled out exactly though.
Using that same paradigm, existing Aasimar would become tieflings at the instant of the fall.
EDIT: You might rule that the original aasimar became /fallen/ assimar at the moment of the fall, and all of their children became zariel tieflings for subsequent generations.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I'm inclined to agree with crzyhawk here as it does make quite a bit of sense. I'm also a fan of the idea that the Hellriders that were loyal to Zariel were spared from slaughter after Zariel swore fealty to Asmodeus and were promptly tied to fall as their master did, becoming the Zariel variant of Tiefling.
With Zariel's fall being anywhere between 1354 and 1494, and planar travel being possible for the newly turned Hellrider Zariel tieflings and their offspring, you can easily place this variant in any of the area surrounding where Elturel once existed (and of course in the major cities along the Sword Coast).
Fascinating! Is all this stuff in Sword Coast Adventure Guide or is it from another source?
Some of it is from the SCAG, some is from the series of novels by Erin M Evans that starts with Brimstone Angels, which was written to help explain /why/ tieflings changed between 3e and 4e. You can piece most of it together from the web though.
The cliff notes version is, that in 2e and 3e, tieflings were /essentially/ the variant tiefling from the SCAG. At the end of 3e when Asmodeus wanted to become a god, he gathered together a group of tieflings called the Toril Thirteen who then performed a ritual. This ritual bound /all/ existing tieflings on Toril, and made them of Asmodeus' bloodline. So, the original tieflings which didn't have to have horns and tails, lost their original characteristics and became what we now recognize as PHB tieflings.
from the FR wiki page on Tieflings:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tiefling
In 1358 DR, a warlock coven known as the Toril thirteen performed a ritual that cursed most tiefling lineages—those of demons, devils, hags, and rakshasas, among others—with the "blood of Asmodeus", changing their original lineage with that of the archdevil himself. This was done to make Asmodeus a "racial god", ensuring him enough followers to attain godly powers. After the Spellplague of 1385 DR, when Asmodeus became a god, the magic of the ritual took effect across all of Toril and afterwards most tieflings living in the 15th century DR were of the Asmodean lineage, all having a similar devilish appearance.
Prior to Asmodeus's ascension to godhood, the infernal blood could be diluted through intermarriage, but afterward, the union of a tiefling with another race always produced a tiefling child.
In the late years of the 15th century, tieflings of other bloodlines began to born again, but the Asmodean lineage was still the most numerous by a wide margin at the time.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Bryseis_Kakistos
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Toril_thirteen
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Thank you. So you think 1354? Thoughts on those humans and non-humans that followed her as part of the Ride? I would think those that remained by her side would transform, but IIRC, all of them were submitted to unending torture so they are not likely around, or breeding. Only those that fled would be in Faerun now. Any others would have to have been created by Zariel after the fact. I am trying to find a believable reason why there would be a Zariel tiefling living today that would have been also part of the ride. Since it was 150 years ago, I would think only the long lived (elves and dwarves) would still be around today. A re-skinned dwarven tiefling, for example.
At least two of Zariel's generals are still around; Haruman and Olanthuis. They are now narzugon devils. 1354 is what the articles I can find gives for a date. The ones who returned to Faerun are still humans. You run into some of the descendants of those who ran in the ADL Modules for avernus.
++++++++++++++++++++++Spoilers+++++++++++++++++++++
From the avernus module:
Zariel’s Fall
Zariel lost more than her army on Avernus. She also lost a hand, which was severed in battle. As her sword fell to the ground, Zariel ordered Yael, her most devoted general, to take the weapon and hide it, so that the devils would not destroy or corrupt it. Yael took the sword and fled, along with Zariel’s faithful hollyphant companion, Lulu. Zariel’s other two generals, Olanthius and Haruman, refused to leave Zariel’s side. All three were captured and sent to Nessus, the lowest of the Nine Hells. There, Zariel was brought before Asmodeus, who welcomed her with open arms. The Lord of the Nine commended Zariel for her battle prowess and the strength of her convictions. He offered her rulership of Avernus, much to Bel’s chagrin. By swearing fealty to Asmodeus and the Nine Hells, Zariel could bring her rage to bear against the demons and continue to fight in the Blood War, with legions of devils under her command. Zariel accepted Asmodeus’s terms, completing her fall from grace. Haruman followed his master into damnation willingly and was transformed into a narzugon devil, while Olanthius, who took his own life rather than bow before Asmodeus, was brought back to serve as a death knight under Zariel’s burning gaze.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Haruman
As far as a tiefling being around, it's possible. From the Toril Thirteen, Caisys the vicelord was still around in 1487, as was Phrenike (although IIRC Phrenike was a lich by this time). There could be some lifestealing or am amulet of perpetual youth involved. Aasimar can live up to 160 years, it's not unrealistic that a very young aasimar who was turned into a tiefling is still around. An elf who was turned into a tiefling or a dwarf would be very plausible assuming they kept their original aging characteristic. Or, perhaps time just passes differently in the Nine Hells. Perhaps even a rider who died in the hells has their soul reborn into a Zariel Tiefling body, perhaps descended from a family member of the hellriders who fled back to Faerun?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It is entirely possible that Zariel's bloodline of tieflings became prevalent for a completely different reason as mentioned in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. In the section about infernal cambions, page 21 I believe, it states that "Zariel and Geryon have a penchant for spawning cambions to serve as war leaders among their followers" meaning that the high number of Zariel tieflings may simply be due to the high number of children she's spawned. If they share her mindset, her direct spawn would then likely have many children of their own, so while her bloodline is young it would be widespread. It makes sense considering she's in charge of the front lines in the blood war and would need a high number of officers she could trust to carry out orders with minimal scheming. Not that a devil's children never scheme against their own parents, Glasya comes to mind, just that it makes a degree of sense.
While valid, that would not seem to account for wny one would encounter them on the Prime Material plan, much less as a common adventurer.
Entirely fair. My main speculation would be that "war leaders among their followers" could mean cultist followers on the material planes, not those participating directly in the blood war. Cambions can also plane shift with their innate spellcasting so that might be a contributing factor although I don't know how many vacation days soldiers of Avernus get so no idea how realistic it would be for a Cambion to just head to the material plane. My other thought would be that since Zariel has a number of erinyes under her command they may have had a hand in making more tieflings with a link to zariel despite it not actually being a direct lineage since we've seen similar things happen before with tieflings. I tend to use occam's razor when filling in gaps in lore even though D&D writing does tend to take a convoluted approach most of the time. It might even be a combination of the origins mentioned by everyone here so in the end I guess its just up to interpretation. The idea of holidays with great grandma Zariel is certainly entertaining though.