I wanted to get people's opinions (especially GMs) on a tactic for a 9th level warlock. In round one, you hex somebody and give them disadvantage on WIS saving throws. The spell slot will be 5th level, which allows concentration up to 24 hours. In round two, you cast Bestow Curse (received due to invocation) which doesn't require concentration at 5th level. The creature has to make a WIS saving throw at disadvantage or be cursed. If they fail (likely) you can impose the effect of causing them to make a WIS saving throw at disadvantage at the start of each of their turns. If they fail, they do nothing on that turn. The warlock has a spell DC of 18 (has a +1 magic rod), so disadvantage means the creature would fail quite often. I know this is allowed and a valid move, but does it seem like too much of a jerk move? How annoyed would you be, if you were the GM and your big bad character got locked down for most of combat?
We're playing Curse of Strahd now and have faced Strahd by himself a couple of times. Even if there are other enemies, locking down the heavy hitting boss while we destroy his minions essentially changes the CR of the encounter quite a bit.
I believe they can still take a reaction, but they'd lose everything else for that turn.
The only spell that can lose concentration is Hex. That would eliminate the disadvantage, but there's still a decent chance of losing your turn to the curse.
It is my understanding of Bestow Curse that they would indeed receive a bonus action if they have it. The text of the spell specifically says they can't use an ACTION.
But that has just been my understanding of it. As a DM, I wouldn't be pissed by this move at all. I would be kind of proud of my players for coming up with it TBH. However, you are dammend sure that you would face foes with Sleet Storm or other concentration breaking tactics moving forward :)
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"I was led to believe there would be punch and pie?"
Strahd would still have his Legendary Actions. But still, if that combo were successful, it would nerf him quite a bit. The Legendary Resistance (3 change a fail to saves) has to get burned through first though.
If the issue is that they keep doing this to Strahd, I think Strahd would invest in some curse prevention... granted, I don't know the adventure that well, so how reasonable this is, I can't say for sure.
Well, Strahd aside, this is brilliant for a lot of high CR boss types. There are some creatures that just lend to being solo monsters. Beholders, Ancient Dragons, and a few others come to mind.
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"I was led to believe there would be punch and pie?"
But target need to fail in Bane ST first, and many times this doesn't happen and you lose one action.
Things that I remember that really make saves bad for enemy:
-Eldritch Knight lvl 10
-Rogue Arcane Trickester lvl 9
-Sorcerer Metamagic
-Wild sorcerer have an expensive -1d4
-Wizard divination Portent
-UA - Shadow sorcerer hound lvl 6
-UA- Awakened Mystic lvl 6, and some mystic disciplines.
-UA- Lore Master can change the Ability of save, restrainned enemies get desadvantage in Dex ST, Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned or Unconsious auto fail in Str and Dex ST.
As folks have mentioned, Hex doesn't quite work that way... but for the larger point of "combos" like this that take a multiple-turn investment by one or more characters in order lock down one enemy... there's really no reason to think that this is "unfair" or something that the DM should bend rules to avoid, especially when a) the player is giving up rounds of damage to pull off the combo, b) there are internal checks within it that allow for uncertainty (saves, even if those saves are at disadvantage), or c) it requires intelligent group strategizing instead of just piling on to beat things senseless with big sticks.
Instead of spending two turns to have a chance of taking away Strahd's action (not his bonus, not his moves, not his legendary actions), assuming he doesn't legendary resistance his way out of it, your level 9 warlock could have instead just handed out somewhere around 20-40 damage per round just by casting eldritch blasts (or with a couple levels of sorcerer, 40-80 per round). It's a cool story moment for one member of the party to struggle to temporarily distract a foe much stronger than them, or maybe even the entire party, and as a DM if you start to discourage that sort of play, you're going to push your players a lot more towards "I cast eldritch blast... again" playstyle.
The PHB says "anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action". Stinking cloud forces you to "spend" your action retching, but you still used that action so can still use a bonus action. Bestow Curse can make you "waste" your action doing nothing. I can't find an official ruling, but I think that is the same meaning as stinking cloud. Contrast that with the Incapacitated condition that says an "incapacitated creature can't take actions or reactions", and surprise also prevents taking an action at all. Can't take actions = can't take bonus actions.
what's the combo there? That you're able to do 4-5 damage a round to someone within 30' of you without a save, while being safe from them attacking you? That isn't much of a combo... and I'm not sure it really works with Etherealness, since while you're on the Ethereal plane you "can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane." I'm not sure that that definitely means you have to drop concentration on Hex, but it almost certainly means you can't use Maddening Hex on them.
I wanted to get people's opinions (especially GMs) on a tactic for a 9th level warlock. In round one, you hex somebody and give them disadvantage on WIS saving throws. The spell slot will be 5th level, which allows concentration up to 24 hours. In round two, you cast Bestow Curse (received due to invocation) which doesn't require concentration at 5th level. The creature has to make a WIS saving throw at disadvantage or be cursed. If they fail (likely) you can impose the effect of causing them to make a WIS saving throw at disadvantage at the start of each of their turns. If they fail, they do nothing on that turn. The warlock has a spell DC of 18 (has a +1 magic rod), so disadvantage means the creature would fail quite often. I know this is allowed and a valid move, but does it seem like too much of a jerk move? How annoyed would you be, if you were the GM and your big bad character got locked down for most of combat?
Well, it is a great combo for sure. But usually the DM plays with more then one NPC.
We're playing Curse of Strahd now and have faced Strahd by himself a couple of times. Even if there are other enemies, locking down the heavy hitting boss while we destroy his minions essentially changes the CR of the encounter quite a bit.
Yes, you are right. If I were the DM I would do somethig to make lose concentration.
A question: with HEX/BESTOW CURSE combo, the target can still use reaction and or bonus action?
I believe they can still take a reaction, but they'd lose everything else for that turn.
The only spell that can lose concentration is Hex. That would eliminate the disadvantage, but there's still a decent chance of losing your turn to the curse.
I have just posted a thread for Bestow curse.
http://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/2040-bestow-curse#c1
It is my understanding of Bestow Curse that they would indeed receive a bonus action if they have it. The text of the spell specifically says they can't use an ACTION.
But that has just been my understanding of it. As a DM, I wouldn't be pissed by this move at all. I would be kind of proud of my players for coming up with it TBH. However, you are dammend sure that you would face foes with Sleet Storm or other concentration breaking tactics moving forward :)
"I was led to believe there would be punch and pie?"
Strahd would still have his Legendary Actions. But still, if that combo were successful, it would nerf him quite a bit. The Legendary Resistance (3 change a fail to saves) has to get burned through first though.
geek dad with 3 geek kids
I thought there was something that said if you lose your action, you lose your bonus action as well. I could be misremembering, though.
I was wrong.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/02/can-i-use-a-movebonus-actionreaction-if-i-failed-stinking-cloud-saving-throw/
If the issue is that they keep doing this to Strahd, I think Strahd would invest in some curse prevention... granted, I don't know the adventure that well, so how reasonable this is, I can't say for sure.
Well, Strahd aside, this is brilliant for a lot of high CR boss types. There are some creatures that just lend to being solo monsters. Beholders, Ancient Dragons, and a few others come to mind.
"I was led to believe there would be punch and pie?"
Hex gives desadvantage in checks, not saving throws.
Checks, saving throws and attacks are three different things.
Checks are for skills, initiative, grapple, prone, counter or dispel a higher level spell...
I thought it said checks and saving throws, but you are right. That drastically changes this combo.
Bane however would do what you want. We actually were discussing the use of bane last night to nerf an opponents Saving Throw to do something similar
.
"I was led to believe there would be punch and pie?"
But target need to fail in Bane ST first, and many times this doesn't happen and you lose one action.
Things that I remember that really make saves bad for enemy:
-Eldritch Knight lvl 10
-Rogue Arcane Trickester lvl 9
-Sorcerer Metamagic
-Wild sorcerer have an expensive -1d4
-Wizard divination Portent
-UA - Shadow sorcerer hound lvl 6
-UA- Awakened Mystic lvl 6, and some mystic disciplines.
-UA- Lore Master can change the Ability of save, restrainned enemies get desadvantage in Dex ST, Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned or Unconsious auto fail in Str and Dex ST.
Hex doesn't give disavantage on saves only on checks......i doesn't work like you say.
bestow curse give disavantage on saves and checks....
As folks have mentioned, Hex doesn't quite work that way... but for the larger point of "combos" like this that take a multiple-turn investment by one or more characters in order lock down one enemy... there's really no reason to think that this is "unfair" or something that the DM should bend rules to avoid, especially when a) the player is giving up rounds of damage to pull off the combo, b) there are internal checks within it that allow for uncertainty (saves, even if those saves are at disadvantage), or c) it requires intelligent group strategizing instead of just piling on to beat things senseless with big sticks.
Instead of spending two turns to have a chance of taking away Strahd's action (not his bonus, not his moves, not his legendary actions), assuming he doesn't legendary resistance his way out of it, your level 9 warlock could have instead just handed out somewhere around 20-40 damage per round just by casting eldritch blasts (or with a couple levels of sorcerer, 40-80 per round). It's a cool story moment for one member of the party to struggle to temporarily distract a foe much stronger than them, or maybe even the entire party, and as a DM if you start to discourage that sort of play, you're going to push your players a lot more towards "I cast eldritch blast... again" playstyle.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The PHB says "anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action". Stinking cloud forces you to "spend" your action retching, but you still used that action so can still use a bonus action. Bestow Curse can make you "waste" your action doing nothing. I can't find an official ruling, but I think that is the same meaning as stinking cloud. Contrast that with the Incapacitated condition that says an "incapacitated creature can't take actions or reactions", and surprise also prevents taking an action at all. Can't take actions = can't take bonus actions.
Question: Do you guys think that this combo will work? Hex casted at 5th level+Etherealness+Maddening Hex?
what's the combo there? That you're able to do 4-5 damage a round to someone within 30' of you without a save, while being safe from them attacking you? That isn't much of a combo... and I'm not sure it really works with Etherealness, since while you're on the Ethereal plane you "can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane." I'm not sure that that definitely means you have to drop concentration on Hex, but it almost certainly means you can't use Maddening Hex on them.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.