What do folks think of 2024's Mage Slayer vs. Resilient WIS to protect a martial?
Mage Slayer: Instant save, not dependent on decent save stat. But only useable once per short rest. Does also boost main offensive stat and/or key support stat.
Res. WIS: Impacts saves as many times as targeted, but only Wisdom. Boosts main mental save stat.
I can really see both. One for sure save feels solid, but then versus tougher enemy, you could easily be targeted multiple times. On the other hand, WIS is the main mental save targeted, but there's no guarantee. And you're exposed to CHA if they happen.
As for the stats, nice to have an option that bolsters mental saves but still pumps a main stat. That said, depending on how you get your stats, you may be using other feats to build your STR or DEX. So you may have to either delay improving your main stat or kind of waste the stat boost part of Mage Slayer? With Res. WIS you can possibly round off what is a fourth most important stat for a martial?
If you're specifically interested in bolstering mental defenses, Resilient (WIS) is better, hands down, simply because it's always on with no limits for use. If you're in a fight with mages who are targeting mental saves, you'll probably have to make more than one save in a fight. You can't protect against everything, no one can anyway, and WIS saves tend to be much more common than INT and CHA saves. You'll have to rely on teammates to help for other effects.
So for me the question is, what is more important to you: protecting yourself from mental attacks, or improving your main attack stat?
IIRC (don't have my books RN), Mage Slayer would be much better. As you pointed out, not all saves are wisdom, but Mage Slayer works on any save (albeit only once), and also gives other advantages when fighting spellcasters. The stat boost is much better, as you pointed out. I would think it highly unlikely that someone would end up wasting the ASI from mage slayer if they planned even slightly, so is this a question for an existing PC? Also why is WIS the fourth most important stat for a martial according to you? Is it specifically for the saving throws?
Good points both ways. I can see Mage Slayer being stronger when you can use it for 100% save and then kill or neutralize the enemy with the control effect. But Resilient being stronger when there are multiple enemies throwing control effects or a big boss you can't kill quickly.
For me the issue is partly feat scarcity. Both would be good, but you need to get your primary stat up along with the feats that make your martial tick. Human no longer gives those key feats at level 1. So for a Barbarian build I could easily want to take Polearm Master and then Great Weapon Master at levels 4 & 8. If stats were rolled and you started with a 16+2 for STR, you would have maxed out your main stat already, so Mage Slayer is less useful. Maybe you round out an odd DEX stat? Is Mage Slayer worth it if you waste the stat boost? Probably?
Wisdom though is arguably less critical for most martials until mid-game. You'd want decent STR & CON in any martial, and DEX not too far since it affects so much. Maybe WIS is equal to DEX with a heavy armor build, but main thing is I feel more comfortable waiting to boost that stat than my primary I think. I dunno.
Boosting CON and STR makes sense, but why are you concerned with boosting DEX and WIS? You clearly understand that doing so would spread yourself pretty thin. The game is designed that one character shouldn't be able to cover everything, so there's a limit to how effective you can be at shoring up weaknesses. I'd concentrate more on improving your strengths.
Good points both ways. I can see Mage Slayer being stronger when you can use it for 100% save and then kill or neutralize the enemy with the control effect. But Resilient being stronger when there are multiple enemies throwing control effects or a big boss you can't kill quickly.
For me the issue is partly feat scarcity. Both would be good, but you need to get your primary stat up along with the feats that make your martial tick. Human no longer gives those key feats at level 1. So for a Barbarian build I could easily want to take Polearm Master and then Great Weapon Master at levels 4 & 8. If stats were rolled and you started with a 16+2 for STR, you would have maxed out your main stat already, so Mage Slayer is less useful. Maybe you round out an odd DEX stat? Is Mage Slayer worth it if you waste the stat boost? Probably?
Wisdom though is arguably less critical for most martials until mid-game. You'd want decent STR & CON in any martial, and DEX not too far since it affects so much. Maybe WIS is equal to DEX with a heavy armor build, but main thing is I feel more comfortable waiting to boost that stat than my primary I think. I dunno.
Most people aren't rolling for stats and most builds only require a single martial feat, so I think that's only an edge case.
Boosting CON and STR makes sense, but why are you concerned with boosting DEX and WIS? You clearly understand that doing so would spread yourself pretty thin. The game is designed that one character shouldn't be able to cover everything, so there's a limit to how effective you can be at shoring up weaknesses. I'd concentrate more on improving your strengths.
No no, I was comparing the stat bonus part of the feats. In the case where your STR is maxed out, Mage Slayer could only add DEX, and I was citing that as not really having that much value in fact. Exactly since it doesn't improve on your strengths. It'd only help if you rolled some odd stats and felt like rounding them off.
The example I gave was taking PAM & GWM, a common martial combo, with a rolled 16+2, which would bring you to 20 STR at 8. You could replace one of those with Mage Slayer,, which of course would lessen your offense but still is a nice option if you want to build more defensively.
As for WIS, again, if your main stat is maxed out, and you know you want to bolster mental saves, the +1 to WIS from Resilient would also help if you had an odd number stat there. I feel that's a bit more likely than other stats you'd have prioritized making even.
The stat boost part of either of these feats is not the main attraction. Just mentioned it since it is a part of it.
Being proficient in wisdom saves will turn (PB*5%) failures into successes. Thus, you need to be making 7 saves at level 5-8, 6 saves at level 9-12, 5 saves at level 13-16, and 4 saves at level 17+ to pull ahead. I might consider resilient (wisdom) as a level 12 feat, by that point you're probably already maxed on your primary attribute and might be dealing with threats that require very large number of saves, but for most campaigns mage slayer will be better (for spellcasters, resilient(constitution) vs war caster is a closer call).
for spellcasters, resilient(constitution) vs war caster is a closer call
Not really because they aren't an either-or. For a spellcaster you grab Warcaster at level 4 and boost your primary stat, max out your primary stat at level 8, and pick up resilient Con at level 12 unless you are playing a gish-y character.
Being proficient in wisdom saves will turn (PB*5%) failures into successes. Thus, you need to be making 7 saves at level 5-8, 6 saves at level 9-12, 5 saves at level 13-16, and 4 saves at level 17+ to pull ahead. I might consider resilient (wisdom) as a level 12 feat, by that point you're probably already maxed on your primary attribute and might be dealing with threats that require very large number of saves, but for most campaigns mage slayer will be better (for spellcasters, resilient(constitution) vs war caster is a closer call).
Does that math factor in rising DCs for the Wisdom checks?
And yeah, level 12 is when I would want something for mental saves, ideally. Levels 4 & 8 to max out my primary stat..
Being proficient in wisdom saves will turn (PB*5%) failures into successes. Thus, you need to be making 7 saves at level 5-8, 6 saves at level 9-12, 5 saves at level 13-16, and 4 saves at level 17+ to pull ahead. I might consider resilient (wisdom) as a level 12 feat, by that point you're probably already maxed on your primary attribute and might be dealing with threats that require very large number of saves, but for most campaigns mage slayer will be better (for spellcasters, resilient(constitution) vs war caster is a closer call).
Does that math factor in rising DCs for the Wisdom checks?
And yeah, level 12 is when I would want something for mental saves, ideally. Levels 4 & 8 to max out my primary stat..
It works for any DC that isn't an edge case (eg: 0% or 100% success rate)
The best choice depends on a few factors altho I'd say Mage Slayer is the better option.
There is differences between say a Monk or Ranger to a Fighter or Barbarian. As Monk and Ranger generally have a good positive +Wisdom Modifier, they can get more from Resilient(Wisdom) while a Fighter or Barbarian might not. On the flip side, Paladin gets basically nothing from Resilient(Wisdom) as they already have Wisdom Saving Throw proficiency.
Wisdom Saving Throw Proficiency is a 5%*PB (0.05*PB) increase too making the save. If you're a fighter with a Wisdom of 10, then at level 8 you'd go from a Wisdom saving throw of +0 to +3 while a Ranger with a Wisdom of 15 would go from a wisdom saving throw of +2 to +6. If you're facing a DC16 save, at +0 you fail on a 15 or less, that is a 75% chance of failure compared to a +3 where you fail on a 12 or less, a 60% chance of failure, that is a reduction in the amount of times you'll fail of 20%. Compare this to the ranger who comes from a 65% chance of failure to a 45% chance of failure, this is a reduction in the amount of times you'll fail by 30%. As you increase in level, the DC generally is going to increase slightly faster than the proficiency bonus so resilient(wisdom) by itself is going to be slightly weaker the higher the level you reach unless you're a class that can invest into Wisdom else wise. For Monk, they also get advantage on saving throws in the late game, which makes resilient(wisdom) even stronger.
On the flip side, Mage Slayer is a get out of jail free card against any Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma save. It recharges on a short or long rest and is only consumed when you fail. Resilient(Wisdom) does not help against an Intelligence or Charisma save, so if you're fighting an Illithid/Mind Flayer, Resilient(Wisdom) might not help you at all since the saves against the Mind Blast of a Mind Flayer is INT, not WIS. Here is a list of spells that have INT or CHA saves as well.
Another way to think about this, At level 13, you have a +5 PB, if you increase form a 75% chance to fail to a 50% chance to fail. If you succeed the 1st throw and you get hit by the same effect/spell again, you have another 50% to fail, that is a 75% chance to have failed by this point but you can fail the 1st save whereas with Mage Slayer, you make the 1st save 100% of the time, there is a 25% chance you still have the get out of jail free card by the next round... so you're slightly a head. However once you use it, you do need to short rest to get it back.
So it varies over what is better but generally Mage Slayer is the safe option, more so if you're facing INT or CHA saves.
The best choice depends on a few factors altho I'd say Mage Slayer is the better option.
There is differences between say a Monk or Ranger to a Fighter or Barbarian. As Monk and Ranger generally have a good positive +Wisdom Modifier, they can get more from Resilient(Wisdom) while a Fighter or Barbarian might not. On the flip side, Paladin gets basically nothing from Resilient(Wisdom) as they already have Wisdom Saving Throw proficiency.
Wisdom Saving Throw Proficiency is a 5%*PB (0.05*PB) increase too making the save. If you're a fighter with a Wisdom of 10, then at level 8 you'd go from a Wisdom saving throw of +0 to +3 while a Ranger with a Wisdom of 15 would go from a wisdom saving throw of +2 to +6. If you're facing a DC16 save, at +0 you fail on a 15 or less, that is a 75% chance of failure compared to a +3 where you fail on a 12 or less, a 60% chance of failure, that is a reduction in the amount of times you'll fail of 20%. Compare this to the ranger who comes from a 65% chance of failure to a 45% chance of failure, this is a reduction in the amount of times you'll fail by 30%. As you increase in level, the DC generally is going to increase slightly faster than the proficiency bonus so resilient(wisdom) by itself is going to be slightly weaker the higher the level you reach unless you're a class that can invest into Wisdom else wise. For Monk, they also get advantage on saving throws in the late game, which makes resilient(wisdom) even stronger.
On the flip side, Mage Slayer is a get out of jail free card against any Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma save. It recharges on a short or long rest and is only consumed when you fail. Resilient(Wisdom) does not help against an Intelligence or Charisma save, so if you're fighting an Illithid/Mind Flayer, Resilient(Wisdom) might not help you at all since the saves against the Mind Blast of a Mind Flayer is INT, not WIS. Here is a list of spells that have INT or CHA saves as well.
Another way to think about this, At level 13, you have a +5 PB, if you increase form a 75% chance to fail to a 50% chance to fail. If you succeed the 1st throw and you get hit by the same effect/spell again, you have another 50% to fail, that is a 75% chance to have failed by this point but you can fail the 1st save whereas with Mage Slayer, you make the 1st save 100% of the time, there is a 25% chance you still have the get out of jail free card by the next round... so you're slightly a head. However once you use it, you do need to short rest to get it back.
So it varies over what is better but generally Mage Slayer is the safe option, more so if you're facing INT or CHA saves.
Good thoughts. Yeah, the number of combats per short rest really is a key variable, along with how many enemies are throwing mental saves at you how often. With 1-2 combats per day being common, Mage Slayer seems strong. That said, one of my DMs hits us with quite a lot of saving throws in combats. Not all are mental saves, but that may become the case as we get higher.
Correction: Monks actually get Proficiency in WIS (and all) saving throws at level 14, not advantage. So Mage Slayer makes more sense there and with any class that gets WIS save proficiency.
What do folks think of 2024's Mage Slayer vs. Resilient WIS to protect a martial?
Mage Slayer: Instant save, not dependent on decent save stat. But only useable once per short rest. Does also boost main offensive stat and/or key support stat.
Res. WIS: Impacts saves as many times as targeted, but only Wisdom. Boosts main mental save stat.
I can really see both. One for sure save feels solid, but then versus tougher enemy, you could easily be targeted multiple times. On the other hand, WIS is the main mental save targeted, but there's no guarantee. And you're exposed to CHA if they happen.
As for the stats, nice to have an option that bolsters mental saves but still pumps a main stat. That said, depending on how you get your stats, you may be using other feats to build your STR or DEX. So you may have to either delay improving your main stat or kind of waste the stat boost part of Mage Slayer? With Res. WIS you can possibly round off what is a fourth most important stat for a martial?
Thoughts?
If you're specifically interested in bolstering mental defenses, Resilient (WIS) is better, hands down, simply because it's always on with no limits for use. If you're in a fight with mages who are targeting mental saves, you'll probably have to make more than one save in a fight. You can't protect against everything, no one can anyway, and WIS saves tend to be much more common than INT and CHA saves. You'll have to rely on teammates to help for other effects.
So for me the question is, what is more important to you: protecting yourself from mental attacks, or improving your main attack stat?
IIRC (don't have my books RN), Mage Slayer would be much better. As you pointed out, not all saves are wisdom, but Mage Slayer works on any save (albeit only once), and also gives other advantages when fighting spellcasters. The stat boost is much better, as you pointed out. I would think it highly unlikely that someone would end up wasting the ASI from mage slayer if they planned even slightly, so is this a question for an existing PC? Also why is WIS the fourth most important stat for a martial according to you? Is it specifically for the saving throws?
Good points both ways. I can see Mage Slayer being stronger when you can use it for 100% save and then kill or neutralize the enemy with the control effect. But Resilient being stronger when there are multiple enemies throwing control effects or a big boss you can't kill quickly.
For me the issue is partly feat scarcity. Both would be good, but you need to get your primary stat up along with the feats that make your martial tick. Human no longer gives those key feats at level 1. So for a Barbarian build I could easily want to take Polearm Master and then Great Weapon Master at levels 4 & 8. If stats were rolled and you started with a 16+2 for STR, you would have maxed out your main stat already, so Mage Slayer is less useful. Maybe you round out an odd DEX stat? Is Mage Slayer worth it if you waste the stat boost? Probably?
Wisdom though is arguably less critical for most martials until mid-game. You'd want decent STR & CON in any martial, and DEX not too far since it affects so much. Maybe WIS is equal to DEX with a heavy armor build, but main thing is I feel more comfortable waiting to boost that stat than my primary I think. I dunno.
Boosting CON and STR makes sense, but why are you concerned with boosting DEX and WIS? You clearly understand that doing so would spread yourself pretty thin. The game is designed that one character shouldn't be able to cover everything, so there's a limit to how effective you can be at shoring up weaknesses. I'd concentrate more on improving your strengths.
Most people aren't rolling for stats and most builds only require a single martial feat, so I think that's only an edge case.
No no, I was comparing the stat bonus part of the feats. In the case where your STR is maxed out, Mage Slayer could only add DEX, and I was citing that as not really having that much value in fact. Exactly since it doesn't improve on your strengths. It'd only help if you rolled some odd stats and felt like rounding them off.
The example I gave was taking PAM & GWM, a common martial combo, with a rolled 16+2, which would bring you to 20 STR at 8. You could replace one of those with Mage Slayer,, which of course would lessen your offense but still is a nice option if you want to build more defensively.
As for WIS, again, if your main stat is maxed out, and you know you want to bolster mental saves, the +1 to WIS from Resilient would also help if you had an odd number stat there. I feel that's a bit more likely than other stats you'd have prioritized making even.
The stat boost part of either of these feats is not the main attraction. Just mentioned it since it is a part of it.
Being proficient in wisdom saves will turn (PB*5%) failures into successes. Thus, you need to be making 7 saves at level 5-8, 6 saves at level 9-12, 5 saves at level 13-16, and 4 saves at level 17+ to pull ahead. I might consider resilient (wisdom) as a level 12 feat, by that point you're probably already maxed on your primary attribute and might be dealing with threats that require very large number of saves, but for most campaigns mage slayer will be better (for spellcasters, resilient(constitution) vs war caster is a closer call).
Not really because they aren't an either-or. For a spellcaster you grab Warcaster at level 4 and boost your primary stat, max out your primary stat at level 8, and pick up resilient Con at level 12 unless you are playing a gish-y character.
Does that math factor in rising DCs for the Wisdom checks?
And yeah, level 12 is when I would want something for mental saves, ideally. Levels 4 & 8 to max out my primary stat..
It works for any DC that isn't an edge case (eg: 0% or 100% success rate)
The best choice depends on a few factors altho I'd say Mage Slayer is the better option.
There is differences between say a Monk or Ranger to a Fighter or Barbarian. As Monk and Ranger generally have a good positive +Wisdom Modifier, they can get more from Resilient(Wisdom) while a Fighter or Barbarian might not. On the flip side, Paladin gets basically nothing from Resilient(Wisdom) as they already have Wisdom Saving Throw proficiency.
Wisdom Saving Throw Proficiency is a 5%*PB (0.05*PB) increase too making the save. If you're a fighter with a Wisdom of 10, then at level 8 you'd go from a Wisdom saving throw of +0 to +3 while a Ranger with a Wisdom of 15 would go from a wisdom saving throw of +2 to +6. If you're facing a DC16 save, at +0 you fail on a 15 or less, that is a 75% chance of failure compared to a +3 where you fail on a 12 or less, a 60% chance of failure, that is a reduction in the amount of times you'll fail of 20%. Compare this to the ranger who comes from a 65% chance of failure to a 45% chance of failure, this is a reduction in the amount of times you'll fail by 30%. As you increase in level, the DC generally is going to increase slightly faster than the proficiency bonus so resilient(wisdom) by itself is going to be slightly weaker the higher the level you reach unless you're a class that can invest into Wisdom else wise. For Monk, they also get advantage on saving throws in the late game, which makes resilient(wisdom) even stronger.
On the flip side, Mage Slayer is a get out of jail free card against any Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma save. It recharges on a short or long rest and is only consumed when you fail. Resilient(Wisdom) does not help against an Intelligence or Charisma save, so if you're fighting an Illithid/Mind Flayer, Resilient(Wisdom) might not help you at all since the saves against the Mind Blast of a Mind Flayer is INT, not WIS. Here is a list of spells that have INT or CHA saves as well.
Another way to think about this, At level 13, you have a +5 PB, if you increase form a 75% chance to fail to a 50% chance to fail. If you succeed the 1st throw and you get hit by the same effect/spell again, you have another 50% to fail, that is a 75% chance to have failed by this point but you can fail the 1st save whereas with Mage Slayer, you make the 1st save 100% of the time, there is a 25% chance you still have the get out of jail free card by the next round... so you're slightly a head. However once you use it, you do need to short rest to get it back.
So it varies over what is better but generally Mage Slayer is the safe option, more so if you're facing INT or CHA saves.
Good thoughts. Yeah, the number of combats per short rest really is a key variable, along with how many enemies are throwing mental saves at you how often. With 1-2 combats per day being common, Mage Slayer seems strong. That said, one of my DMs hits us with quite a lot of saving throws in combats. Not all are mental saves, but that may become the case as we get higher.
Correction: Monks actually get Proficiency in WIS (and all) saving throws at level 14, not advantage. So Mage Slayer makes more sense there and with any class that gets WIS save proficiency.