CalligrapherTools & Perception, Stealth, Arcana etc.
Barbarian 5/6 WildHeart or Berserker
ASI PolearmMaster -> STR 18
WeaponMastery push (Pike), topple (Lance) etc.
Fighter 3/4 EchoKnight (2014)
FightingStyle Defense
ASI GreatWeaponMaster -> STR19
We can have 4 attacks at level 8 from PingPong
Warlock X Fiend Patron
Spells: BladeWard, ArmorOfAgathys, MinorIllusion, MirrorImage etc.
EldritchInvocations: FiendishVigor, EldritchMind, LessonOfTheFirstOnes for Tough or TombOfLevistus or PactOfChain for Alert synergy or Devil'sSight
ASI MageSlayer -> STR20
Barbarian5/Fighter3/Warlock12 grants a boon at level 20. Fighter6 adds another ASI for Barbarian 3/4 WildHeart.
I think with this build we'll have (i) better initiative, (ii) higher damage per round, (iii) better out of rage protection, (iv) high TempHP+HP, (v) more utility with the invocations than a straight classed Barbarian or Fighter and (vi) we can cast spells (the most powerful class feature). Therefore, we'll improve our DamageDealt vs. DamageTaken ratio. But that is open to discussions and I may be wrong. :-)
Ping-Pong attack (4 attacks): We basically play ping-pong with the target (see this post). We take Barbarian to always hit with advantage via RecklessAttack and pull off that trick more reliably.
5 attacks in the first round: Provided the Echo has a halberd already, the Echo attacks two targets within 5ft of each other using the Cleave-WeaponMastery and stows the halberd. The Barbarian equips a pike and we continue with the Echo that attacks via Ping-Pong.
Before combat and duing our adventuring day, we have our Echo always manifested,always have +12 TempHP from FiendishVigor that don’t expire (top them up after a rest & after combat) and always concentrate on BladeWard for expected +2AC (cast after a rest & after combat and keep casting). We’ll loose concentration if we rage but we are protected in combat even if we don’t rage. Because of the invocation EldritchMind, our high CON and our proficiency in CON saving throws, we could keep concentrating well and the expected +2AC are a resource free option that saves our rages. We'll cast ArmorOfAgathys if we plan to rage and before we do so. The spell lasts for 1h, doesn't require concentration, just takes a BonusAction to cast, gives TempHP and does nice damage if we are hit. TempHPs are virtually doubled when we rage. TempHP do not stack but you can change which to keep when you get new ones. So we have FiendishVigor TempHP before combat, cast ArmorOfAgathys and simply keep the FiendishVigor TempHP. At Warlock 5 we don’t do this anymore. SageAdviceCompendium says ArmorOfAgathys does not end when we take the TempHP from another source.
Using RecklessAttack, attacks against the Echo are made with a flat roll. Remember you are not the Echo and advantage is against you. However, you still attack through the Echo with advantage. This is applicable to Darkness, FogCloud. The Echo adds ton of mobility & control and can attack flying targets with a Lance for the Topple-WeaponMastery. This gives the target the prone condition. Note the invocation EldritchSmite does that as well, has no saving throw but it requies a precious spell slot. Knocking prone or grappling through the Echo does not make sense I think because we loose an entire attack.
We create a CustomBackground from DMG. Lucky and HeroicInspiration (Human) is for saving throws and Alert to go first in combat. We need the latter to (i) position the Echo, (ii) activate Rage or ArmorOfAgathys, (iii) deal ActionSurge+UnleashIncarnation nova damage. Note the invocation PactOfChain basically grants advantage on the initiative roll if we swap initiative with our familiar (Imp, Sprite, SphinxOfWonder). Optional would be MagicInitiate for GiftOfAlacrity. The invocation LessonOfTheFirstOnes allows for Tough to close the HP dice gap between Barbarian and Warlock.
Our Barbarian subclass is WildHeart for increased resistances or Berserker for more damage and the MindlessRage protection. The Warlock subclass is Fiend because of the synergy with Rage to get TempHP for every fallen target and the saving throw protection.
CalligrapherTools allows us to scribe SpellScrolls and we do that as much as we can. Note that casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time.
Motivation: The Barbarian has fewer options for multiclassing in DnD 2024 than in 2014 that work well with Rage. Ranger FavoredFoe is now FavoredEnemy and build around the spell Hunter'sMark, GloomStalker is nerfed, Paladin's DivineSmite is now a spell (though DivineFavor increases the damage output) and the powerful PeaceCleric one level dip is gone. I believe that PrecisionAttack from BattleMaster is not so strong anymore since GreatWeaponMaster (i) lost the -5 on attack rolls but (ii) deals more damage against high AC targets than in 2014. ShadowSorcerery UA for the level 6 feature (casting spells without needing to concentrate) might be something to do before raging but the hit dice is so low. Note that an EchoKnight with PolearmMaster and Sentinel is not so great anymore because ReactiveStrike is not an OpportunityAttack.
The build is inspired by the RageFiendBarbarian from TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics but without GiantBarbarian because oversized weapons might not work anymore. I have read these rules are not in the DMG 2024.
Have they revised Echo Knight for 2024? Because in 2014 the echo cannot "equip" anything and it doesn't get a "turn" it is an inert object. It also requires your BA to manifest.
Thanks for your reply. Not revised yet, it is the 2014 version and this subclasses is allowed. I have refined the wording. Thanks for the hints and it was indeed confusing.
I had to double check this but appears Reactive Strike lacks the "using it's action" that Opportunity Attacks has, so I guess pushing a creature into range works RAW. Had not noticed that before.
The only bit I can see an issue with is this, Unless you're rolling for attributes, you can't get a 16+2, your maximum is 15+2 with either Standard Array or Point Buy and usually builds like these use either Standard Array or Point Buy. If this is just how your character works off of having previously rolled die then it is fine but this build won't be as applicable to others, they'd need to get another point of strength (probably from another half-feat at a later level).
I had to double check this but appears Reactive Strike lacks the "using it's action" that Opportunity Attacks has, so I guess pushing a creature into range works
Hi R3sistance, thank for your reply. It is a long post. :-D If the Echo attacks, PAM states that PoleStrike-BonusAction should be directly used afterwards. Hence, attack with Echo, a Reaction interrupting this, PoleStrike should be fine RAW, shouldn't it? Do you think attacking, moving, Polestrike attack is fine by RAW?
The only bit I can see an issue with is this, Unless you're rolling for attributes, you can't get a 16+2, your maximum is 15+2 with either Standard Array or Point Buy and usually builds like these use either Standard Array or Point Buy. If this is just how your character works off of having previously rolled die then it is fine but this build won't be as applicable to others, they'd need to get another point of strength (probably from another half-feat at a later level).
Aw man. I didn't notice this because I rolled the dice. I updated the build but do you have an idea on it please?
The only bit I can see an issue with is this, Unless you're rolling for attributes, you can't get a 16+2, your maximum is 15+2 with either Standard Array or Point Buy and usually builds like these use either Standard Array or Point Buy. If this is just how your character works off of having previously rolled die then it is fine but this build won't be as applicable to others, they'd need to get another point of strength (probably from another half-feat at a later level).
Aw man. I didn't notice this because I rolled the dice. Do you have an idea on the build please?
As I said, simply fixed by another half-feat at a later level, my suggestion might be something like Charger or Piercer. Charger works particularly well with a push heavy build
As I said, simply fixed by another half-feat at a later level, my suggest might be something like Charger or Piercer. Charger works particularly well with a push heavy build
Charger ChargeAttack from the feat cannot be used with the Echo because 'you' need to do it but the Echo is not you. Otherwise, it would have been nice: equip a cleave or graize mastery weapon and our ping-pong trick can be pulled off. We have the Echo for something like ImprovedDash.
Piercer Puncture is not such a big damage improvement. I would reroll only if the d10 is below the expected value of 5 but that is only once per turn. EnhancedCritical does not come often but only once every 20 rolls and that means every five rounds or more. At our table, many combats are shorter.
Taking Charger or Piercer too early requires to either drop GWM or MageSlayer. That would decrease the damage output per round or increase the risk loosing scary saving throws at this late level. I am not too convinced but maybe in some later levels.
Taking Charger or Piercer too early requires to either drop GWM or MageSlayer. That would decrease the damage output per round or increase the risk loosing scary saving throws at this late level. I am not too convinced but maybe in some later levels.
These were just examples of other half-feats you could have included but switching Mage Slayer to Strength also works, which is the change I assume you went with in the updated build.
Yes exactly! The progression is like this point buy STR15, then background +2STR, then PAM +1STR 18, then GWM +1STR, then MageSlayer +1STR resulting in STR20. Without loosing the advantages of these feats.
No no. STR15 +2 from point buy and background & PAM +1STR 18 & GWM +1STR19 & MageSlayer +1STR resulting in STR20. Without loosing the advantages of these feats.
It's fine, whatever was changed I think this is fine. The question just become on the last levels. I personally think 8 Barbarian/8 Fighter/4Warlock would be best, just to get the extra feat/ASI.
TBH I don't get why you are dipping warlock, Barbarians can get Adv on initiative from their class, and you're sacrificing a lot of hit points - both from downgrading your hit die from a d12 to a d8 and from sacrificing lower CON to bump your CHA for those warlock levels. Fiendish Vigor and AoA don't stack and there's probably someone else in the party able to load you up with thp or heal you so I don't know what your really getting.
Hi Agilemind. Thanks for your answer and I also wondered back then. The reason is that we win more with Warlock levels than with extra Barbarian or Fighter levels. Check out TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics who even did Barbarian6 / Warlock 14.
We will have (i) better initiative, (ii) higher damage per round, (iii) better out of rage protection and almost the number of TempHP+HP, (iv) more utility with the invocations than a straight classed Barbarian or Fighter and (v) we can cast spells (the most powerful class feature).
Let me get to your arguments:
Barbarian 7 gives advantage on initiative rolls. This build takes Alert from a background and it gives you +3 and +4 (level 9) on your initiative roll. This compensates for the advantage. We can get advantage on initiative from (i) a Luck point or from (ii) the invocation PactOfChain if you swap initiative with your familiar through Alert or from (iii) GiftOfAlacrity if you take MagicInitiate via an invocation. That means your ProficiencyBonus and advantage on the initiative roll.
The hit die decrease d12 to d8 means 2HP less per level. This is compensated via the OriginFeat Tough we get from an eldritch invocation. For the missed additional increase of 1HP per level via CON we have FiendishVigor. We might not fully comensate it but we have BladeWard and the TempHP from AoA (below).
BladeWard is an awesome cantrip and we expect on +2AC. With the invocation EldritchMind we are expected to concentrate quite long in a combat. +2AC is a huge buff and I think this compensates for the less HP via CON.
ArmorOfAgathys is an awesome spell. It is compatible with rage and only requires a bonus action. This means we can even cast it in combat but better would be upfront. It starts slow with (spellslotlevel)*5 TempHP and causes (spellslotlevel)*5 damage if you are hit. You get one spell slot level for every two Warlock levels and so this scales reasonably fast. This means extra durability while dealing damage. The problem with a straight classed Barbarian is that you don't increase your damage anymore. That is why we take AoA and we are not that limited in resources.
Fiend Patron provides you with fresh TempHP for every fallen target.
Healing during a fight is not efficient. A Cleric is better off with SpiritGuardians than healing somebody. The damage you take cannot be healed and hence, it is better if the Cleric makes more damage than the damage the Cleric or you can heal in order to end combat earlier.
I hope I put the arguments well enough to show that we are better off with Warlock than Barbarian. If I have missed something, TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics explain it better.
Think about casting a cool fireball with your Barbarian which is always a solid start for a combat.
we are expected to concentrate quite long in a combat. +2AC is a huge buff and I think this compensates for the less HP via CON.
You can't concentrate while you rage though. So why not be a straight warlock? or a Fighter-Warlock? Warlock features and Barbarian features are largely incompatible with each other.
If this is not possible, no problem because AoA TempHP will be higher than those from FiendishVigor anyway.
AoA at 2nd level is 10 TmpHP, that's 1/3rd of 1 enemy attack at level 20. Why would you waste your action in combat to cast Fiendish Vigor?
At level 20, say your fighting an Ancient Dragon with this build, how does it play out? Do you concentrate on Blade Ward and not Rage? Do you Rage and not use Blade Ward? Do you spend a whole turn casting AoA for 10 thp and then summoning your echo in exactly the right spot and then the dragon flies away...? I don't see how Warlock is benefitting you.
You're saying healing in combat isn't efficient but the main reason you are dipping warlock is to get thp & healing???
Think about casting a cool fireball with your Barbarian which is always a solid start for a combat.
Casting a 3rd level fireball with a super low DC because your Cha is terrible when your allies can cast Meteor Swarm? Why would that be a good move?
we are expected to concentrate quite long in a combat. +2AC is a huge buff and I think this compensates for the less HP via CON.
You can't concentrate while you rage though. So why not be a straight warlock? or a Fighter-Warlock? Warlock features and Barbarian features are largely incompatible with each other.
Thanks for your critical reply.
I wanted to play a melee character and didn’t want a full caster. That is why no pure Warlock. I have already a Barbarian with cool diced stats in the campaign so I cannot change that anymore. Just thinking how to move on with it.
The build never casts BladeWard in combat but attacks instead. We cast it after our rest & after combat, keep concentrating & recast such that it is active all the time. Unless we rage of course. ArmorOfAgathys is when we plan to rage. :-)
Melee is really dangerous, so I think the Barbarian/Warlock is better than what Fighter/Warlock has to offer because of the resistances.
If this is not possible, no problem because AoA TempHP will be higher than those from FiendishVigor anyway.
AoA at 2nd level is 10 TmpHP, that's 1/3rd of 1 enemy attack at level 20. Why would you waste your action in combat to cast Fiendish Vigor?
Agreed. Nobody would do that. The build never casts FiendishVigor in combat. Instead after a rest and after combat. Basically we run around with those TempHP all the time because they don’t expire. Never cast it during combat.
Why would you cast AoA at level 2 when the build could cast it at level 5 with a level 20 character? Of course we cast the turn before we rage or even before combat. That increases our damage per round by 25 when they hit us and gives effectively 50 TempHP with rage.
You're saying healing in combat isn't efficient but the main reason you are dipping warlock is to get thp & healing???
Exactly. The build doesn‘t heal during combat. See above the use of FiendishVigor and AoA. We more than close the gap between straight classed Barbarian with TempHP. Rage virtually doubles them. Btw. I meant a Cleric healing some PC or the PC drinking a simple potion.
Think about casting a cool fireball with your Barbarian which is always a solid start for a combat.
Casting a 3rd level fireball with a super low DC because your Cha is terrible when your allies can cast Meteor Swarm? Why would that be a good move?
Depends on the situation. Other options would be Counterspell, DispelMagic, MistyStep. Melee without casting could be very, very dangerous. Low CHA is not always a big problem for an AreaOfEffect spell because half-damage against a mob is very nice too.
At level 20, say your fighting an Ancient Dragon with this build, how does it play out? Do you concentrate on Blade Ward and not Rage? Do you Rage and not use Blade Ward? Do you spend a whole turn casting AoA for 10 thp and then summoning your echo in exactly the right spot and then the dragon flies away...? I don't see how Warlock is benefitting you.
Knock it prone with the Echo and EldritchSmite (against huge, no saving throw). :-) See above the use of BladeWard, AoA and FiendishVigor. How would you do it with a dragon and your melee build?
These were just examples of other half-feats you could have included but switching Mage Slayer to Strength also works, which is the change I assume you went with in the updated build.
Hi R3sistance. Sorry I didn‘t read your post well. Yes that is the change I made. Indeed the last levels would be interesting. Not sure yet.
Really appreciated your constructive feedback. Let me consider your ideas on some nice feats.
Barbarian5/Fighter3/Warlock12 grants a boon at level 20.
I'm assuming you're using medium armor since you can't rage in heavy armor and your con and dex are probably low. Honestly the ping pong idea is pretty cool and it only works because they changed the wording to prevent the sentinel and polearm master synergy. As other people have pointed out the anti-psynergy between barbarian and warlock isn't great. You may be better served as a fighter taking heavy armor master, polearm master, and great weapon master.
My suggestion would be to get at least to level 9 in fighter to get indomitable and tactical master to use push or topple with a lance. Level 9 in fighter lets you still get basically everything you would get from you current build but has a little more synergy, better AC, and slightly less damage mitigation. Heavy armor master helps quite a bit in taking hits.
I'm assuming you're using medium armor since you can't rage in heavy armor and your con and dex are probably low. Honestly the ping pong idea is pretty cool and it only works because they changed the wording to prevent the sentinel and polearm master synergy. As other people have pointed out the anti-psynergy between barbarian and warlock isn't great. You may be better served as a fighter taking heavy armor master, polearm master, and great weapon master.
My suggestion would be to get at least to level 9 in fighter to get indomitable and tactical master to use push or topple with a lance. Level 9 in fighter lets you still get basically everything you would get from you current build but has a little more synergy, better AC, and slightly less damage mitigation. Heavy armor master helps quite a bit in taking hits.
Hi MeatLuggin.
Thanks for your reply.
HeavyArmorMaster only reduces BPS-damage from attacks but not other sources. Not sure how universal that is.
PingPong goes well with the Barbarians advantage on all attacks and not just one because of vex. TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics came up with Barbarian/Warlock because the TempHP last so long with the resistance from rage while ArmorOfAgathys deals damage in return.
Let me give your idea some thought. Specially, the extra ASI and the higher AC.
Hi all.
This build uses the Ping-Pong attack (see this post). Let me know your thoughts.
Barbarian5/Fighter3/Warlock12 grants a boon at level 20. Fighter6 adds another ASI for Barbarian 3/4 WildHeart.
I think with this build we'll have (i) better initiative, (ii) higher damage per round, (iii) better out of rage protection, (iv) high TempHP+HP, (v) more utility with the invocations than a straight classed Barbarian or Fighter and (vi) we can cast spells (the most powerful class feature). Therefore, we'll improve our DamageDealt vs. DamageTaken ratio. But that is open to discussions and I may be wrong. :-)
Ping-Pong attack (4 attacks): We basically play ping-pong with the target (see this post). We take Barbarian to always hit with advantage via RecklessAttack and pull off that trick more reliably.
5 attacks in the first round: Provided the Echo has a halberd already, the Echo attacks two targets within 5ft of each other using the Cleave-WeaponMastery and stows the halberd. The Barbarian equips a pike and we continue with the Echo that attacks via Ping-Pong.
Before combat and duing our adventuring day, we have our Echo always manifested, always have +12 TempHP from FiendishVigor that don’t expire (top them up after a rest & after combat) and always concentrate on BladeWard for expected +2AC (cast after a rest & after combat and keep casting). We’ll loose concentration if we rage but we are protected in combat even if we don’t rage. Because of the invocation EldritchMind, our high CON and our proficiency in CON saving throws, we could keep concentrating well and the expected +2AC are a resource free option that saves our rages. We'll cast ArmorOfAgathys if we plan to rage and before we do so. The spell lasts for 1h, doesn't require concentration, just takes a BonusAction to cast, gives TempHP and does nice damage if we are hit. TempHPs are virtually doubled when we rage. TempHP do not stack but you can change which to keep when you get new ones. So we have FiendishVigor TempHP before combat, cast ArmorOfAgathys and simply keep the FiendishVigor TempHP. At Warlock 5 we don’t do this anymore. SageAdviceCompendium says ArmorOfAgathys does not end when we take the TempHP from another source.
Using RecklessAttack, attacks against the Echo are made with a flat roll. Remember you are not the Echo and advantage is against you. However, you still attack through the Echo with advantage. This is applicable to Darkness, FogCloud. The Echo adds ton of mobility & control and can attack flying targets with a Lance for the Topple-WeaponMastery. This gives the target the prone condition. Note the invocation EldritchSmite does that as well, has no saving throw but it requies a precious spell slot. Knocking prone or grappling through the Echo does not make sense I think because we loose an entire attack.
We create a CustomBackground from DMG. Lucky and HeroicInspiration (Human) is for saving throws and Alert to go first in combat. We need the latter to (i) position the Echo, (ii) activate Rage or ArmorOfAgathys, (iii) deal ActionSurge+UnleashIncarnation nova damage. Note the invocation PactOfChain basically grants advantage on the initiative roll if we swap initiative with our familiar (Imp, Sprite, SphinxOfWonder). Optional would be MagicInitiate for GiftOfAlacrity. The invocation LessonOfTheFirstOnes allows for Tough to close the HP dice gap between Barbarian and Warlock.
Our Barbarian subclass is WildHeart for increased resistances or Berserker for more damage and the MindlessRage protection. The Warlock subclass is Fiend because of the synergy with Rage to get TempHP for every fallen target and the saving throw protection.
CalligrapherTools allows us to scribe SpellScrolls and we do that as much as we can. Note that casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time.
Motivation: The Barbarian has fewer options for multiclassing in DnD 2024 than in 2014 that work well with Rage. Ranger FavoredFoe is now FavoredEnemy and build around the spell Hunter'sMark, GloomStalker is nerfed, Paladin's DivineSmite is now a spell (though DivineFavor increases the damage output) and the powerful PeaceCleric one level dip is gone. I believe that PrecisionAttack from BattleMaster is not so strong anymore since GreatWeaponMaster (i) lost the -5 on attack rolls but (ii) deals more damage against high AC targets than in 2014. ShadowSorcerery UA for the level 6 feature (casting spells without needing to concentrate) might be something to do before raging but the hit dice is so low. Note that an EchoKnight with PolearmMaster and Sentinel is not so great anymore because ReactiveStrike is not an OpportunityAttack.
The build is inspired by the RageFiendBarbarian from TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics but without GiantBarbarian because oversized weapons might not work anymore. I have read these rules are not in the DMG 2024.
Please let me know your thoughts on the build.
Have they revised Echo Knight for 2024? Because in 2014 the echo cannot "equip" anything and it doesn't get a "turn" it is an inert object. It also requires your BA to manifest.
Hi Agilemind.
Thanks for your reply. Not revised yet, it is the 2014 version and this subclasses is allowed. I have refined the wording. Thanks for the hints and it was indeed confusing.
I had to double check this but appears Reactive Strike lacks the "using it's action" that Opportunity Attacks has, so I guess pushing a creature into range works RAW. Had not noticed that before.
The only bit I can see an issue with is this, Unless you're rolling for attributes, you can't get a 16+2, your maximum is 15+2 with either Standard Array or Point Buy and usually builds like these use either Standard Array or Point Buy. If this is just how your character works off of having previously rolled die then it is fine but this build won't be as applicable to others, they'd need to get another point of strength (probably from another half-feat at a later level).
Hi R3sistance, thank for your reply. It is a long post. :-D If the Echo attacks, PAM states that PoleStrike-BonusAction should be directly used afterwards. Hence, attack with Echo, a Reaction interrupting this, PoleStrike should be fine RAW, shouldn't it? Do you think attacking, moving, Polestrike attack is fine by RAW?
Aw man. I didn't notice this because I rolled the dice. I updated the build but do you have an idea on it please?
As I said, simply fixed by another half-feat at a later level, my suggestion might be something like Charger or Piercer. Charger works particularly well with a push heavy build
Updated: STR15 +2 -> PAM STR 18 -> GWM STR19 -> MageSlayer STR20 Thanks!
Charger ChargeAttack from the feat cannot be used with the Echo because 'you' need to do it but the Echo is not you. Otherwise, it would have been nice: equip a cleave or graize mastery weapon and our ping-pong trick can be pulled off. We have the Echo for something like ImprovedDash.
Piercer Puncture is not such a big damage improvement. I would reroll only if the d10 is below the expected value of 5 but that is only once per turn. EnhancedCritical does not come often but only once every 20 rolls and that means every five rounds or more. At our table, many combats are shorter.
Taking Charger or Piercer too early requires to either drop GWM or MageSlayer. That would decrease the damage output per round or increase the risk loosing scary saving throws at this late level. I am not too convinced but maybe in some later levels.
These were just examples of other half-feats you could have included but switching Mage Slayer to Strength also works, which is the change I assume you went with in the updated build.
Yes exactly! The progression is like this point buy STR15, then background +2STR, then PAM +1STR 18, then GWM +1STR, then MageSlayer +1STR resulting in STR20. Without loosing the advantages of these feats.
It's fine, whatever was changed I think this is fine. The question just become on the last levels. I personally think 8 Barbarian/8 Fighter/4Warlock would be best, just to get the extra feat/ASI.
TBH I don't get why you are dipping warlock, Barbarians can get Adv on initiative from their class, and you're sacrificing a lot of hit points - both from downgrading your hit die from a d12 to a d8 and from sacrificing lower CON to bump your CHA for those warlock levels. Fiendish Vigor and AoA don't stack and there's probably someone else in the party able to load you up with thp or heal you so I don't know what your really getting.
Hi Agilemind. Thanks for your answer and I also wondered back then. The reason is that we win more with Warlock levels than with extra Barbarian or Fighter levels. Check out TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics who even did Barbarian6 / Warlock 14.
We will have (i) better initiative, (ii) higher damage per round, (iii) better out of rage protection and almost the number of TempHP+HP, (iv) more utility with the invocations than a straight classed Barbarian or Fighter and (v) we can cast spells (the most powerful class feature).
Let me get to your arguments:
I hope I put the arguments well enough to show that we are better off with Warlock than Barbarian. If I have missed something, TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics explain it better.
Think about casting a cool fireball with your Barbarian which is always a solid start for a combat.
Let me know your thoughts.
You can't concentrate while you rage though. So why not be a straight warlock? or a Fighter-Warlock? Warlock features and Barbarian features are largely incompatible with each other.
AoA at 2nd level is 10 TmpHP, that's 1/3rd of 1 enemy attack at level 20. Why would you waste your action in combat to cast Fiendish Vigor?
At level 20, say your fighting an Ancient Dragon with this build, how does it play out? Do you concentrate on Blade Ward and not Rage? Do you Rage and not use Blade Ward? Do you spend a whole turn casting AoA for 10 thp and then summoning your echo in exactly the right spot and then the dragon flies away...? I don't see how Warlock is benefitting you.
You're saying healing in combat isn't efficient but the main reason you are dipping warlock is to get thp & healing???
Casting a 3rd level fireball with a super low DC because your Cha is terrible when your allies can cast Meteor Swarm? Why would that be a good move?
Thanks for your critical reply.
I wanted to play a melee character and didn’t want a full caster. That is why no pure Warlock. I have already a Barbarian with cool diced stats in the campaign so I cannot change that anymore. Just thinking how to move on with it.
The build never casts BladeWard in combat but attacks instead. We cast it after our rest & after combat, keep concentrating & recast such that it is active all the time. Unless we rage of course.
ArmorOfAgathys is when we plan to rage. :-)
Melee is really dangerous, so I think the Barbarian/Warlock is better than what Fighter/Warlock has to offer because of the resistances.
Agreed. Nobody would do that.
The build never casts FiendishVigor in combat. Instead after a rest and after combat. Basically we run around with those TempHP all the time because they don’t expire. Never cast it during combat.
Why would you cast AoA at level 2 when the build could cast it at level 5 with a level 20 character? Of course we cast the turn before we rage or even before combat. That increases our damage per round by 25 when they hit us and gives effectively 50 TempHP with rage.
Exactly. The build doesn‘t heal during combat. See above the use of FiendishVigor and AoA. We more than close the gap between straight classed Barbarian with TempHP. Rage virtually doubles them.
Btw. I meant a Cleric healing some PC or the PC drinking a simple potion.
Depends on the situation. Other options would be Counterspell, DispelMagic, MistyStep. Melee without casting could be very, very dangerous. Low CHA is not always a big problem for an AreaOfEffect spell because half-damage against a mob is very nice too.
Knock it prone with the Echo and EldritchSmite (against huge, no saving throw). :-) See above the use of BladeWard, AoA and FiendishVigor.
How would you do it with a dragon and your melee build?
Hi R3sistance.
Sorry I didn‘t read your post well. Yes that is the change I made. Indeed the last levels would be interesting. Not sure yet.
Really appreciated your constructive feedback. Let me consider your ideas on some nice feats.
Barbarian5/Fighter3/Warlock12 grants a boon at level 20.
I'm assuming you're using medium armor since you can't rage in heavy armor and your con and dex are probably low. Honestly the ping pong idea is pretty cool and it only works because they changed the wording to prevent the sentinel and polearm master synergy. As other people have pointed out the anti-psynergy between barbarian and warlock isn't great. You may be better served as a fighter taking heavy armor master, polearm master, and great weapon master.
My suggestion would be to get at least to level 9 in fighter to get indomitable and tactical master to use push or topple with a lance. Level 9 in fighter lets you still get basically everything you would get from you current build but has a little more synergy, better AC, and slightly less damage mitigation. Heavy armor master helps quite a bit in taking hits.
Hi MeatLuggin.
Thanks for your reply.
HeavyArmorMaster only reduces BPS-damage from attacks but not other sources. Not sure how universal that is.
PingPong goes well with the Barbarians advantage on all attacks and not just one because of vex. TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics came up with Barbarian/Warlock because the TempHP last so long with the resistance from rage while ArmorOfAgathys deals damage in return.
Let me give your idea some thought. Specially, the extra ASI and the higher AC.
Cheers