CHARMED IMMUNITY

I have an encounter where a character that is immune to being charmed made an oath. The oath makes them the target of a magical ability. The ability compells them to do certain things against their will (with a WIS save at disadvantage) but is more complex than the Command spell. Is there a way to make this possible, or do they skirt past because of the immunity to charmed?

If the "magical ability" you're talking about says that it imposes the Charmed condition, and that it only compels people to do things while they're Charmed, then it doesn't affect someone with immunity to that condition. If this ability doesn't impose that condition, then the creature would be affected by it normally.

Being immune to the Charmed condition doesn't make one immune to effects that don't involve that condition, even if they seem similar to Charmed. Whether the effect is more or less complex than Command isn't relevant. (It should be noted that since Command doesn't impose the Charmed condition, this creature would be fully susceptible to that spell too.)

Given the oath, this seems like it'd probably be related to Geas, which also works fine on anybody immune to the charmed condition.

"Immunity to the charmed condition" is not the same as "immunity to all magical compulsion".

Edit: whoops. Missed the charmed condition in Geas.

Quote from jl8e >>

Given the oath, this seems like it'd probably be related to Geas, which also works fine on anybody immune to the charmed condition.

"Immunity to the charmed condition" is not the same as "immunity to all magical compulsion".

Geas actually says it only applies when the target is Charmed, so it won't affect anyone who's immune to that condition. Same goes for Suggestion, but there are a variety of magical compulsion effects that don't do that: Command, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Antagonize, etc.

Otto's Irresistible Dance has a really weird thing where it only imposes the Charmed condition on a failed save, but wastes the target's turn without that condition on a success, so if you're immune to that condition you're better off failing the save.

The short answer is yes, but you shouldn't. You can of course homebrew an ability that compels a creature to do something using a Wis save that isn't charm, however, anyone familiar with the rules of the game will know that that ability should be a charm thus will know that you HBed it specifically to circumvent their charm immunity and it will feel like you are cheating them out of one of the perks of their character.

Quote from Agilemind >>

The short answer is yes, but you shouldn't. You can of course homebrew an ability that compels a creature to do something using a Wis save that isn't charm, however, anyone familiar with the rules of the game will know that that ability should be a charm thus will know that you HBed it specifically to circumvent their charm immunity and it will feel like you are cheating them out of one of the perks of their character.

 Command doesn't Charm, so I don't think that's a particularly valid point.

Quote from Maruntoryx >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

The short answer is yes, but you shouldn't. You can of course homebrew an ability that compels a creature to do something using a Wis save that isn't charm, however, anyone familiar with the rules of the game will know that that ability should be a charm thus will know that you HBed it specifically to circumvent their charm immunity and it will feel like you are cheating them out of one of the perks of their character.

 Command doesn't Charm, so I don't think that's a particularly valid point.

 Also, by making an oath, it suggests that they entered into this willingly, so they're not likely to feel cheated if it works. (Unless they thought the charm immunity would let them weasel out of the oath, but they can't have been sure.)

And, if you do feel like you shouldn't be able to compel them due to the immunity, there's always the option of the oath merely punishing them for acting against it. (Like Geas does. While the actual spell uses the charmed condition for some reason, there's no thematic reason that it needs to -- it's not altering behavior at all.)

Also, by making an oath, it suggests that they entered into this willingly, so they're not likely to feel cheated if it works. 

The oath is not what is compelling them to behave a certain way, the oath is making them the target of another entity which is trying to force them to behave a certain way. I would have no qualms if it was the oath itself compelling them to behave a certain way, that's absolutely fair enough. But as described I infer this is a situation where the oath has drawn the attention of some other entity who is now targeting them with a completely separate ability to try to compel them to behave a certain way. 

For instance, in one of my campaigns, the DM made my character the lost-at-birth destined saviour of their people which made the villain try to compel her to approach and altar and allow the archvillain to sacrifice her to enact their evil plan. However, the party had recruited a Devotion paladin to help them, and thus I had my character resolutely stay within the paladin's aura to prevent the archvillain from being able to compel her to be sacrificed. I would have felt extremely cheated if the DM just ruled that the devotion paladin's aura doesn't work because they wanted to force the plot to go a certain way. 

Quote from aresbear75 >>

I have an encounter where a character that is immune to being charmed made an oath. The oath makes them the target of a magical ability. The ability compells them to do certain things against their will (with a WIS save at disadvantage) but is more complex than the Command spell. Is there a way to make this possible, or do they skirt past because of the immunity to charmed?

Well, you can make a creature power that does whatever you want, but if you want a published option, I can only think of a few methods

• Remove their immunity (with polymorph or similar), then charm them.
• Possess them (with magic jar, a ghost, a intellect devourer, or similar).
• Deceive them (with phantasmal force or similar). Exceedingly unreliable, however.
• Planar Binding will work if the character is a valid target, which will usually not be the case.

Quote from Agilemind >>

Also, by making an oath, it suggests that they entered into this willingly, so they're not likely to feel cheated if it works. 

The oath is not what is compelling them to behave a certain way, the oath is making them the target of another entity which is trying to force them to behave a certain way. I would have no qualms if it was the oath itself compelling them to behave a certain way, that's absolutely fair enough. But as described I infer this is a situation where the oath has drawn the attention of some other entity who is now targeting them with a completely separate ability to try to compel them to behave a certain way. 

For instance, in one of my campaigns, the DM made my character the lost-at-birth destined saviour of their people which made the villain try to compel her to approach and altar and allow the archvillain to sacrifice her to enact their evil plan. However, the party had recruited a Devotion paladin to help them, and thus I had my character resolutely stay within the paladin's aura to prevent the archvillain from being able to compel her to be sacrificed. I would have felt extremely cheated if the DM just ruled that the devotion paladin's aura doesn't work because they wanted to force the plot to go a certain way. 

Yes, this is very similar, but no Pally for protection

Quote from aresbear75 >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

Also, by making an oath, it suggests that they entered into this willingly, so they're not likely to feel cheated if it works. 

The oath is not what is compelling them to behave a certain way, the oath is making them the target of another entity which is trying to force them to behave a certain way. I would have no qualms if it was the oath itself compelling them to behave a certain way, that's absolutely fair enough. But as described I infer this is a situation where the oath has drawn the attention of some other entity who is now targeting them with a completely separate ability to try to compel them to behave a certain way. 

For instance, in one of my campaigns, the DM made my character the lost-at-birth destined saviour of their people which made the villain try to compel her to approach and altar and allow the archvillain to sacrifice her to enact their evil plan. However, the party had recruited a Devotion paladin to help them, and thus I had my character resolutely stay within the paladin's aura to prevent the archvillain from being able to compel her to be sacrificed. I would have felt extremely cheated if the DM just ruled that the devotion paladin's aura doesn't work because they wanted to force the plot to go a certain way. 

Yes, this is very similar, but no Pally for protection

 In that case I would suggest, having the villain be smart about it rather than simply GM-ruling that the immunity doesn't apply. For instance, you can have the villain threaten to do something even worse if the target character doesn't comply (e.g. kill innocents, kill/torture and NPC they are fond of, kill their fellow party members). Alternatively, if the immunity is granted by an object or even an oath/blessing you could have the villain try to steal the object, or coerce / trick the character into breaking the oath or upsetting the god that granted the blessing. 

In the case of my campaign, my character did eventually leave the paladin's immunity aura after watching helplessly while her party got pummeled by the enemy for 3 rounds because both she and the paladin were unable to fight effectively while always keeping her in the aura.

There are plenty of ways for a villain to get a PC to do something they want them to do other than mind control. And IMO these are actually more interesting, as it challenges the character themselves to make a hard choice and truly act in a heroic / self-sacrificing way rather than simply being forced to do something against their will.

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from aresbear75 >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

Also, by making an oath, it suggests that they entered into this willingly, so they're not likely to feel cheated if it works. 

The oath is not what is compelling them to behave a certain way, the oath is making them the target of another entity which is trying to force them to behave a certain way. I would have no qualms if it was the oath itself compelling them to behave a certain way, that's absolutely fair enough. But as described I infer this is a situation where the oath has drawn the attention of some other entity who is now targeting them with a completely separate ability to try to compel them to behave a certain way. 

For instance, in one of my campaigns, the DM made my character the lost-at-birth destined saviour of their people which made the villain try to compel her to approach and altar and allow the archvillain to sacrifice her to enact their evil plan. However, the party had recruited a Devotion paladin to help them, and thus I had my character resolutely stay within the paladin's aura to prevent the archvillain from being able to compel her to be sacrificed. I would have felt extremely cheated if the DM just ruled that the devotion paladin's aura doesn't work because they wanted to force the plot to go a certain way. 

Yes, this is very similar, but no Pally for protection

 In that case I would suggest, having the villain be smart about it rather than simply GM-ruling that the immunity doesn't apply. For instance, you can have the villain threaten to do something even worse if the target character doesn't comply (e.g. kill innocents, kill/torture and NPC they are fond of, kill their fellow party members). Alternatively, if the immunity is granted by an object or even an oath/blessing you could have the villain try to steal the object, or coerce / trick the character into breaking the oath or upsetting the god that granted the blessing. 

In the case of my campaign, my character did eventually leave the paladin's immunity aura after watching helplessly while her party got pummeled by the enemy for 3 rounds because both she and the paladin were unable to fight effectively while always keeping her in the aura.

There are plenty of ways for a villain to get a PC to do something they want them to do other than mind control. And IMO these are actually more interesting, as it challenges the character themselves to make a hard choice and truly act in a heroic / self-sacrificing way rather than simply being forced to do something against their will.

 Thanks, some good points to think about. Appreciated.