I have a player who wants to make a pirate character in the form of a twf fighter. However, later on he also wants to multiclass into a rogue swashbuckler because partly it fits the character concept but also to use sneak attack to give him a bit more oumph in combat to offset twf becoming weaker at higher levels.
The conundrum is that swashbuckler have an ability that give you a bonus to initiative based on the charisma modifier. Now the players first draft of the build was a well rounded fighter that had great dex and con value with a few points in wis and str (for boarding axes as thrown weapons to give him a bit of a ranged option and for flavour) without any dump stats but no charisma modifier.
Now to get a cha modifier he has to make a MAD character build either by nerfing str or wis both which he is loath to do or take a dump stat which he again doesn't want to do since the first draft sort of locked him in to a character without any real flaws statwise. And no matter what he does the bonus to initiative from the swashbuckler's ability will probably never be more than +1.
So is +1 to initiative worth it, enough so that I should try guide the player to take more charisma?
Or is the bonus negligible and he is better off ignoring the ability from a secondary class, one which he probably won't take more the 3-5 levels in anyhow?
I don’t think that it’s worth it. I’d suggest that he look into staying a straight fighter and pick up a couple of feats. That will give him higher HP, more ASI’s, and all of the fighter abilities.
I'd say it really depends on the character concept he's going for. As an example, dashing pirate captain whose eyes twinkle merrily even as he disarms you, cutlass aimed at your throat? Definitely raise that Charisma. Surly first mate who can fight, sure, but isn't too remarkable otherwise? Maybe not.
As you can tell, I'm a bit biased in favor of the first idea. Fortunately, even without truly dumping (read: having an 8 in) any stats, you can make it work.
Because wanting to have a better than average Wisdom and Strength and not dumping Intelligence will make the character pretty MAD, I'd suggest a half-elf. At level 1 with 27-point buy, the build could look like this:
Str: 12 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 12 Cha: 13
Initiative modifier: +4 at level 1
Which is, while not optimal, certainly workable. Both Fighter and Rogue give more Ability Score Increases than other classes, so taking Fighter to, say, 5, and then Rogue the rest of the way could be very good, even if the player would probably want to wait until that Dexterity is maxed to start raising Charisma.
But how set is the player on having good Wisdom and Strength?
While I would say having at least a 10 in Wisdom is important, whether it really needs to be higher depends on exactly what your player is intending on getting from it, because if the idea is more that the pirate is insightful or perceptive, not only will proficiencies in certain skills be easier than the +1, but the Charisma bonus can also explain that. For example, maybe the pirate is convincing in his lies because he always seems to know just what to say. That could be Wisdom, but it could just as easily be Charisma. Talk to your player about what the point of having high-ish Wisdom is.
With Strength, you will certainly want at least a decent score if you intend on throwing axes. But how set is your character on that, specifically? Darts, daggers, and all ranged weapons are quite useable with dexterity. Maybe the player can "re-fluff" that dagger to be a small axe? Also, Athletics proficiency will solve most ship-boarding problems. The only real problem with dumping strength would likely be the character's lack of unarmed strike damage. This is solved by having a 10 in that score, but does your pirate really need it? He likely has as many knives as tricks up his sleeves.
A much more optimal ability score spread for the example level 1 Half-elf (without any true dump stats) would look like this:
Str: 10 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 16
Initiative modifier: +6 at level 1!
Now you'd only need 4 of the 5-6 ASIs you should get over your 1-20 career to max your Dexterity and Charisma, though Dexterity should almost always come first.
All in all, I think this is a case where you should talk to your player some more. Ask him exactly what he sees his character as, and it may turn out that he doesn't need his mechanical build a certain way to get that roleplaying concept he's looking for.
You could certainly try to minmax this however you see fit, but honestly, +1 initiative is not going to make or break a fight in 99.9% of cases, so If he doesn't want to take a dump stat for that, I dont think there would be a serious problem at all.
Well a +1 increase in initiative gives you a 5% boost on your initiative roll. Generally your rolls are going to swing wildly because of the randomness of a D20 roll. That 5% will only matter if one of the monsters roll the same number as you. How many times is that likely to happen per gaming session. I don’t think I would drop wis or Str for it.
I do like the straight fighter for this and take the alert feat which gives great options for this character idea, including a +5 to initiative.
alternatively I like the character idea of a swashbuckler with cha at the cost of Wis, an 8 even. the idea being he is too busy being charming to pay attention during watch(perception) and/or he cannot hear the nuances of a person telling their story (insight) over the sound of his own awesome.... i.e. Capt. James T Kirk!!!!
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I have a player who wants to make a pirate character in the form of a twf fighter. However, later on he also wants to multiclass into a rogue swashbuckler because partly it fits the character concept but also to use sneak attack to give him a bit more oumph in combat to offset twf becoming weaker at higher levels.
The conundrum is that swashbuckler have an ability that give you a bonus to initiative based on the charisma modifier. Now the players first draft of the build was a well rounded fighter that had great dex and con value with a few points in wis and str (for boarding axes as thrown weapons to give him a bit of a ranged option and for flavour) without any dump stats but no charisma modifier.
Now to get a cha modifier he has to make a MAD character build either by nerfing str or wis both which he is loath to do or take a dump stat which he again doesn't want to do since the first draft sort of locked him in to a character without any real flaws statwise. And no matter what he does the bonus to initiative from the swashbuckler's ability will probably never be more than +1.
So is +1 to initiative worth it, enough so that I should try guide the player to take more charisma?
Or is the bonus negligible and he is better off ignoring the ability from a secondary class, one which he probably won't take more the 3-5 levels in anyhow?
I don’t think that it’s worth it. I’d suggest that he look into staying a straight fighter and pick up a couple of feats. That will give him higher HP, more ASI’s, and all of the fighter abilities.
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I'd say it really depends on the character concept he's going for. As an example, dashing pirate captain whose eyes twinkle merrily even as he disarms you, cutlass aimed at your throat? Definitely raise that Charisma. Surly first mate who can fight, sure, but isn't too remarkable otherwise? Maybe not.
As you can tell, I'm a bit biased in favor of the first idea. Fortunately, even without truly dumping (read: having an 8 in) any stats, you can make it work.
Because wanting to have a better than average Wisdom and Strength and not dumping Intelligence will make the character pretty MAD, I'd suggest a half-elf. At level 1 with 27-point buy, the build could look like this:
Str: 12 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 12 Cha: 13
Initiative modifier: +4 at level 1
Which is, while not optimal, certainly workable. Both Fighter and Rogue give more Ability Score Increases than other classes, so taking Fighter to, say, 5, and then Rogue the rest of the way could be very good, even if the player would probably want to wait until that Dexterity is maxed to start raising Charisma.
But how set is the player on having good Wisdom and Strength?
While I would say having at least a 10 in Wisdom is important, whether it really needs to be higher depends on exactly what your player is intending on getting from it, because if the idea is more that the pirate is insightful or perceptive, not only will proficiencies in certain skills be easier than the +1, but the Charisma bonus can also explain that. For example, maybe the pirate is convincing in his lies because he always seems to know just what to say. That could be Wisdom, but it could just as easily be Charisma. Talk to your player about what the point of having high-ish Wisdom is.
With Strength, you will certainly want at least a decent score if you intend on throwing axes. But how set is your character on that, specifically? Darts, daggers, and all ranged weapons are quite useable with dexterity. Maybe the player can "re-fluff" that dagger to be a small axe? Also, Athletics proficiency will solve most ship-boarding problems. The only real problem with dumping strength would likely be the character's lack of unarmed strike damage. This is solved by having a 10 in that score, but does your pirate really need it? He likely has as many knives as tricks up his sleeves.
A much more optimal ability score spread for the example level 1 Half-elf (without any true dump stats) would look like this:
Str: 10 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 16
Initiative modifier: +6 at level 1!
Now you'd only need 4 of the 5-6 ASIs you should get over your 1-20 career to max your Dexterity and Charisma, though Dexterity should almost always come first.
All in all, I think this is a case where you should talk to your player some more. Ask him exactly what he sees his character as, and it may turn out that he doesn't need his mechanical build a certain way to get that roleplaying concept he's looking for.
I hope this helps!
And that's all I have to say about that.
You could certainly try to minmax this however you see fit, but honestly, +1 initiative is not going to make or break a fight in 99.9% of cases, so If he doesn't want to take a dump stat for that, I dont think there would be a serious problem at all.
Well a +1 increase in initiative gives you a 5% boost on your initiative roll. Generally your rolls are going to swing wildly because of the randomness of a D20 roll. That 5% will only matter if one of the monsters roll the same number as you. How many times is that likely to happen per gaming session. I don’t think I would drop wis or Str for it.
Point of clarification for those of us reading: what does MAD stand for in this context?
"We're the perfect combination of expendable and unkillable!"
Multiple Ability score Dependent...
I do like the straight fighter for this and take the alert feat which gives great options for this character idea, including a +5 to initiative.
alternatively I like the character idea of a swashbuckler with cha at the cost of Wis, an 8 even. the idea being he is too busy being charming to pay attention during watch(perception) and/or he cannot hear the nuances of a person telling their story (insight) over the sound of his own awesome.... i.e. Capt. James T Kirk!!!!
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.