If you are good at grappling, you are good at shoving prone, and this is extremely useful against flying enemies, as knocking prone makes them plummet and often take fall damage. If they take fall damage, they also fall prone. So if you can fly and reach a flying enemy, you still provide great use (even if you can't grapple). If you are a barbarian, you also take half fall damage while raging. At high levels, if the DM allows, you can "free fall" to instantly reach the ground, taking half damage (which is a small fraction of your HP at high levels). Thus, you can immediately follow up with a grapple on a enemy you shoved, as they'll be prone right next to you.
I wouldn't advise this at 100ft+, but at 60ft or lower you can use this for an extra option (given you should be able to reach 60ft fly speed somehow).
Battlerager is such a low-tier subclass that it isn't even worth taking as a grappler, the build it was designed for. Bear totem is far better for grapplers than battlerager will ever be, since elemental damage is how higher level monsters will threaten barbs. It is usually a red is dead subclass, but for grappling you can give it a sub-optimal purple.
Spiked Armour gives worse AC than unarmoured defence once you have +5 CON (or +4 CON and +3 DEX, or +3 CON and +4 DEX etc.). AC is key to grapple/shove builds since they will be big targets yet force dis on attacks, amplifying the need and effect of AC. IF your DM is nice and gives +X spiked armour, then it keeps up.
The damage-on-grapple never scales (flat 3) and is non-magical (unless your DM grants you magical spiked armour and rules it is also magical for attacks/damaging features). Further, this feature gets worse the better you are at grappling, as your targets are less likely to escape, become tougher (last longer), and thus you make grapples less often.
The BA attack is neat for dealing damage without needing hands, but it is only a BA and easily matched by other sources of unarmed strikes / natural weapons (bite/claw from races, tavern brawler). (Also only while raging so limited in use).
Reckless attack is not needed when you use grapple/prone, so the 6th level feature is not useful (even normally, the adv that reckless grants causes far more damage than the temp hp it gives).
BA dash at 10th is pretty useful, but a late addition, outclassed by 2 levels of rogue or 3 levels of eagle totem, and clashes in action economy with the BA attack the subclass grants. (Also only while raging so limited in use).
3 non-magical damage when hit while raging at 14th level is pitiful, unless your DM purposefully uses low-damage multi-attacks and doesn't give non-magic resistance. As a grappler, your AC + forcing dis should make them hit you less often, making this feature worse than normal.
Don't use battlerager. It is a bad subclass that isn't even redeemed by grappling, and you want to have a subclass that works ok in cases where you can't grapple. You're better off going pretty much any other barbarian subclass other than Berserker (since 1 level of exhaustion gives dis on checks).
Rage: grants advantage on all Athletics checks, improved damage, improved damage. This is the bread and butter of Barbarians, and it's awesome for grapplers. It's also one of the rare non-magical ways to have advantage on all Strength rolls.
Typo, you repeat yourself. Something like "improved damage, resistance to common damage types." I think you should also mention it's a bonus action, not an action like enhance ability/enlarge, allowing you to immediately grapple/shove on the first turn without prep.
The lack of Extra Attack is particularly debilitating for rogues trying to be grapplers, and their need for a finesse weapon for DPR limits options such as not grappling 2 targets or not being able to grapple + wield a shield (should you gain shield prof from feat/race). The grappler feat becomes necessary for them to even join the grappler playing field as a single class, as you don't want to waste 2 turns just to grapple/prone and wait till the 3rd to deal damage. So I wouldn't give it a light blue SC rating, and instead blue SCrating.
As a MC though, I agree it should be Gold.Granting a proficiency when MCing into it and Expertise at 1st level makes it accessible for any class that wants to be a grappler, and should be a strong contender for anyone except bard. If you're willing to give up grapple + shield or 2 grapples, then getting easy sneak attack means +1d6 per turn off the bat, making the 1 level dip sting far less.
Cunning action at 2nd level should also be Gold in my opinion. Stuck at 15ft movement while dragging is ok, but 30ft drag via BA dash suddenly gives you unparalleled forced movement: the only one who comes close is a caster with Scatter or a warlock with Eldritch Blast + the pushing invocation and 3 beams, both of which need 11 levels minimum and require a save/attack vs a check. Even then, a 30ft drag allows it to go around corners that you can't see past, giving more options than the other two.
Other than dragging, BA dash means 60ft movement, so that even if you go 2nd and an enemy runs away, you have a decent chance of catching up. Being able to catch up to enemies is vital for all melee characters, and I value cunning action a light blue for melee in general because of that BA dash. This applies especially for grappling.
BA disengage is important when you've bitten off more than you can chew and suddenly that enemy you're grappling is gonna kill you next turn. Grappling is a risky playstyle because of how much attention you give yourself, how upclose you are, and your lack of DPR to kill them off quick. Being tough and being able to escape when not tough enough is important for them.
The effect of a BA dash gets amplified whenever you get speed boosts, so things like Mobile, Barbarian Fast Movement, Monk Unarmoured Movement, Haste, Longstrider, Boots of Speed etc. that usually aren't as impactful due to half speed while dragging become viable again.
Swashbuckler is being undersold, as its 3rd level abilities are useful for grapplers. I think it should be a Light Blue for MC.
As a grappler, you want to get into melee and inflict grapple+prone before the target runs away or attacks. The +CHA to init useful for that if you can afford putting a good stat in it (high rolls/more points for point buy).
As a grappler, you can reliably gain advantage against a target, but you have lower DPR than others and have to rely on sneak attack. If you have dis (eg blinded) and don't have an ally nearby, you don't have sneak attack. Thus, being in a local 1v1 is bad for you (large maps and enemies are spread out, splitting the party somewhat). Swash addresses that trivially, making it so that if you use grapples to get adv, you will always have access to sneak attack unless you're in a 1 vs many and have dis from somewhere.
In cases where you've bitten off more than you can chew, you can use fancy footwork to attack, deal sneak attack, run away and BA dash/hide to safety. The freeing up of action economy really helps a grappler that wants to be mobile and adaptable.
With its channel divinity, access to enhance ability, and aura of alacrity, it's at least as good at grappling as a barbarian. When you add in divine smite and the ability to drag your grappled opponent onto your steed, it's starting to look pretty good.
I am trying to make a tortle grappler that is sort of a pacifist in that he doesnt strike his enemies he only grapples them or redirects their attacks. i was thinking something more defensive that protects others with his grappling. any ideas?
I am trying to make a tortle grappler that is sort of a pacifist in that he doesnt strike his enemies he only grapples them or redirects their attacks. i was thinking something more defensive that protects others with his grappling. any ideas?
Hmm tough one, I've madr grappling characters anf pacifidt characters but never both together, not sure how to go about it.
However from what you have described, drunken master might be the way to go as you can deflect one range or one missed melee attack each turn from level 6 (could flavour them as ricocheting off your shell) .To help with the grappling side of things maybe the brawny feat if allowed UA for athletics expertise while a level or 3 in barbarian for the rage will give you advantage and resistances to survive the beating you will take, and bring tortle is one of the best ways to pull it off as it will be very MAD but due to your shells AC you can leave dex at 13 and consider dropping wisdom if your not going to be hitting things as you won't be stunning.
It if not hitting anything at all it will be very tricky to pull off, might be worth asking a few favours from your DM for instance can you maintain the grapple while using shell defence, and maybe look at modifying either grapple rules or the grapplet feat so that you can restrain enemies while grappling so that you don't have have to prone enemies and give ranged allies disadvantage.
Will be interested to see if you get any other suggestions, as it will be very tricky to make it work.
The best way to optimize grappling DPR and lean into the theme is to optimize movement and jump distance, not attacks directly. The problem with building for punches is, why not just punch them and not grapple to get an extra attack in? The problem with sneak attacks is, why not just use a hand crossbow and not put yourself in harm's way? Only by driving your jump and move speed to ridiculous heights, and then weaponizing that movement in the form of suplexes, does one truly become committed to the grappling way.
Yes. The Grappler feat allows you to to inflict Restrained while also Restraining yourself. Restraining Strike is an entirely separate feature with its own rules, and doesn't require that the attacker Restrain themself.
If that seems a little broken... it is. Use UA at your own risk, it's rarely balanced with other published options.
I can't recall a piece of UA that's ended up published identical to how it appeared as UA... if I were a betting man, Restraining Strike is going to show up (if at all) as Grappling Strike. And instead of adding the superiority die roll to the athletics check, I also wouldn't be surprised if it was framed more like Tavern Brawler, so that you add bonus damage on your melee attack and then "may immediately use a Bonus Action to attempt to grapple the target."
That alone would be a top-tier Maneuver, without needing to go so far as to hand out Restrained or unbeatable grapple checks.
Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a way of converting creature grapple powers so they use your grappling skill (if you turn into a giant constrictor snake, escape DC is 16 even if you have expertise and a proficiency bonus of +3 and thus your athletics check is +10).
I'm sorry I haven't had the time to update the grappler's guide. I think it needs some re-work, especially on the "offensive grapple" which is mostly crit-fishing right now, and on the jumping builds.
I also don't have yet some new published material like Theros, I will probably wait until Tasha's cauldron to everything, especially if some of the UA gets printed (rune Knight, restraining strike)
To answer Pantagruel, the shape changing grappler has to rely on apes to grapple, or anything with hands, and DM has to agree that it can grapple. You then use the strength of the shape but keep your proficiency, meaning you can reach super high bonuses. You also have the size of the creature, which can help a lot.
Regarding blood hunter, I won't do it since it's not in any published book as far as I'm aware (it wasn't printed in Wildemount right?)
@AetherBlack: I will take your remarks in consideration when I will update the guide. Sadly, I'm short on time these days
I'm not sure if anybody mentioned this, but Crawford clarified that the shield master feat can't be used to shove before the attack action is finished. That's somewhat disappointing for grapplers, but not crippling.
I’m at level 10 in AL play with a Rogue Scout 3/Bear Totem 5/Fighter 2. So far the grappler build has been great at one thing: making DMs say, “you can’t do that,” and nerfing my play style. Grappler builds rely on pulling together rule synergies from a bunch of different places. In the right hands it’s insanely powerful. It makes DMs reflexively ban your abilities, even if you discussed it beforehand. I like builds that disrupt enemy plans. Unfortunately grapplers seem to start rules discussions and disruption at the table, which is always bad. I’d rate strong grappler builds as a 9/10 in theory. But they’re 1/10 in practice.
That sort of DM can just as easily ruin a mounted character, a multiclass spellcaster, a rogue that hides in combat, etc etc... when your DM walks into a session looking for ways to say “no,” they’ll find them, especially if you’re playing a build with “read between the lines” synergies.
I find that even typically great DMs struggle with Grapplers. Everything we do is seems to be an abuse/optimization of the rules. It has them constantly going, "that can't be right" or "that's going to ruin everything I spent all week planning."
And then when things get really bad - boots of speed on a dashing barbarian with 50 ft. of base movement - a level 2 spell like spike growth can do 20d4 damage per round to two enemies. It starts to feel like rules abuse and DMs don't like seeing it.
And then when things get really bad - boots of speed on a dashing barbarian with 50 ft. of base movement - a level 2 spell like spike growth can do 20d4 damage per round to two enemies.
No it can't. Spike growth causes damage when a character 'moves'. You may 'drag' or 'carry' a grappled creature, but it does not 'move' and in fact is unable to do so (as it has speed 0). Likewise, grabbing someone and dragging them away from an enemy does not cause them to trigger an opportunity attack, etc.
And here-in lies the problem. DMs have to start redefining words to avoid damage triggers.
The opportunity attack rule literally cites what happens when you move without using your movement. A clear indicator that you can, in fact, move without using movement.
"You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction. For example, you don't provoke an opportunity attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe's reach or if gravity causes you to fall past an enemy."
Spike growth procs when a creature moves, not when it uses its movement speed. It doesn't matter if the movement is voluntary or forced.
If you are good at grappling, you are good at shoving prone, and this is extremely useful against flying enemies, as knocking prone makes them plummet and often take fall damage. If they take fall damage, they also fall prone. So if you can fly and reach a flying enemy, you still provide great use (even if you can't grapple). If you are a barbarian, you also take half fall damage while raging. At high levels, if the DM allows, you can "free fall" to instantly reach the ground, taking half damage (which is a small fraction of your HP at high levels). Thus, you can immediately follow up with a grapple on a enemy you shoved, as they'll be prone right next to you.
I wouldn't advise this at 100ft+, but at 60ft or lower you can use this for an extra option (given you should be able to reach 60ft fly speed somehow).
Battlerager is such a low-tier subclass that it isn't even worth taking as a grappler, the build it was designed for. Bear totem is far better for grapplers than battlerager will ever be, since elemental damage is how higher level monsters will threaten barbs. It is usually a red is dead subclass, but for grappling you can give it a sub-optimal purple.
Don't use battlerager. It is a bad subclass that isn't even redeemed by grappling, and you want to have a subclass that works ok in cases where you can't grapple. You're better off going pretty much any other barbarian subclass other than Berserker (since 1 level of exhaustion gives dis on checks).
Rage: grants advantage on all Athletics checks, improved damage, improved damage. This is the bread and butter of Barbarians, and it's awesome for grapplers. It's also one of the rare non-magical ways to have advantage on all Strength rolls.
Typo, you repeat yourself. Something like "improved damage, resistance to common damage types." I think you should also mention it's a bonus action, not an action like enhance ability/enlarge, allowing you to immediately grapple/shove on the first turn without prep.
The lack of Extra Attack is particularly debilitating for rogues trying to be grapplers, and their need for a finesse weapon for DPR limits options such as not grappling 2 targets or not being able to grapple + wield a shield (should you gain shield prof from feat/race). The grappler feat becomes necessary for them to even join the grappler playing field as a single class, as you don't want to waste 2 turns just to grapple/prone and wait till the 3rd to deal damage. So I wouldn't give it a light blue SC rating, and instead blue SC rating.
As a MC though, I agree it should be Gold. Granting a proficiency when MCing into it and Expertise at 1st level makes it accessible for any class that wants to be a grappler, and should be a strong contender for anyone except bard. If you're willing to give up grapple + shield or 2 grapples, then getting easy sneak attack means +1d6 per turn off the bat, making the 1 level dip sting far less.
Cunning action at 2nd level should also be Gold in my opinion. Stuck at 15ft movement while dragging is ok, but 30ft drag via BA dash suddenly gives you unparalleled forced movement: the only one who comes close is a caster with Scatter or a warlock with Eldritch Blast + the pushing invocation and 3 beams, both of which need 11 levels minimum and require a save/attack vs a check. Even then, a 30ft drag allows it to go around corners that you can't see past, giving more options than the other two.
Other than dragging, BA dash means 60ft movement, so that even if you go 2nd and an enemy runs away, you have a decent chance of catching up. Being able to catch up to enemies is vital for all melee characters, and I value cunning action a light blue for melee in general because of that BA dash. This applies especially for grappling.
BA disengage is important when you've bitten off more than you can chew and suddenly that enemy you're grappling is gonna kill you next turn. Grappling is a risky playstyle because of how much attention you give yourself, how upclose you are, and your lack of DPR to kill them off quick. Being tough and being able to escape when not tough enough is important for them.
The effect of a BA dash gets amplified whenever you get speed boosts, so things like Mobile, Barbarian Fast Movement, Monk Unarmoured Movement, Haste, Longstrider, Boots of Speed etc. that usually aren't as impactful due to half speed while dragging become viable again.
Swashbuckler is being undersold, as its 3rd level abilities are useful for grapplers. I think it should be a Light Blue for MC.
Paladin - Oath of Glory. Any performance as a grappler?
With its channel divinity, access to enhance ability, and aura of alacrity, it's at least as good at grappling as a barbarian. When you add in divine smite and the ability to drag your grappled opponent onto your steed, it's starting to look pretty good.
I am trying to make a tortle grappler that is sort of a pacifist in that he doesnt strike his enemies he only grapples them or redirects their attacks. i was thinking something more defensive that protects others with his grappling. any ideas?
Hmm tough one, I've madr grappling characters anf pacifidt characters but never both together, not sure how to go about it.
However from what you have described, drunken master might be the way to go as you can deflect one range or one missed melee attack each turn from level 6 (could flavour them as ricocheting off your shell) .To help with the grappling side of things maybe the brawny feat if allowed UA for athletics expertise while a level or 3 in barbarian for the rage will give you advantage and resistances to survive the beating you will take, and bring tortle is one of the best ways to pull it off as it will be very MAD but due to your shells AC you can leave dex at 13 and consider dropping wisdom if your not going to be hitting things as you won't be stunning.
It if not hitting anything at all it will be very tricky to pull off, might be worth asking a few favours from your DM for instance can you maintain the grapple while using shell defence, and maybe look at modifying either grapple rules or the grapplet feat so that you can restrain enemies while grappling so that you don't have have to prone enemies and give ranged allies disadvantage.
Will be interested to see if you get any other suggestions, as it will be very tricky to make it work.
I'm curious that this thread hasn't yet explored Blood Hunter.
Order of the Lycan benefits (while transformed)
Thoughts? Suggestions?
The best way to optimize grappling DPR and lean into the theme is to optimize movement and jump distance, not attacks directly. The problem with building for punches is, why not just punch them and not grapple to get an extra attack in? The problem with sneak attacks is, why not just use a hand crossbow and not put yourself in harm's way? Only by driving your jump and move speed to ridiculous heights, and then weaponizing that movement in the form of suplexes, does one truly become committed to the grappling way.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yes. The Grappler feat allows you to to inflict Restrained while also Restraining yourself. Restraining Strike is an entirely separate feature with its own rules, and doesn't require that the attacker Restrain themself.
If that seems a little broken... it is. Use UA at your own risk, it's rarely balanced with other published options.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I can't recall a piece of UA that's ended up published identical to how it appeared as UA... if I were a betting man, Restraining Strike is going to show up (if at all) as Grappling Strike. And instead of adding the superiority die roll to the athletics check, I also wouldn't be surprised if it was framed more like Tavern Brawler, so that you add bonus damage on your melee attack and then "may immediately use a Bonus Action to attempt to grapple the target."
That alone would be a top-tier Maneuver, without needing to go so far as to hand out Restrained or unbeatable grapple checks.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a way of converting creature grapple powers so they use your grappling skill (if you turn into a giant constrictor snake, escape DC is 16 even if you have expertise and a proficiency bonus of +3 and thus your athletics check is +10).
I'm sorry I haven't had the time to update the grappler's guide. I think it needs some re-work, especially on the "offensive grapple" which is mostly crit-fishing right now, and on the jumping builds.
I also don't have yet some new published material like Theros, I will probably wait until Tasha's cauldron to everything, especially if some of the UA gets printed (rune Knight, restraining strike)
To answer Pantagruel, the shape changing grappler has to rely on apes to grapple, or anything with hands, and DM has to agree that it can grapple. You then use the strength of the shape but keep your proficiency, meaning you can reach super high bonuses. You also have the size of the creature, which can help a lot.
Regarding blood hunter, I won't do it since it's not in any published book as far as I'm aware (it wasn't printed in Wildemount right?)
@AetherBlack: I will take your remarks in consideration when I will update the guide. Sadly, I'm short on time these days
My homebrew feat for thrown weapons, feat to help DMs extend Sorcerer's spells known list, and my homebrew combo monk subclass (diablo inspired)!
I'm not sure if anybody mentioned this, but Crawford clarified that the shield master feat can't be used to shove before the attack action is finished. That's somewhat disappointing for grapplers, but not crippling.
I’m at level 10 in AL play with a Rogue Scout 3/Bear Totem 5/Fighter 2.
So far the grappler build has been great at one thing: making DMs say, “you can’t do that,” and nerfing my play style.
Grappler builds rely on pulling together rule synergies from a bunch of different places. In the right hands it’s insanely powerful. It makes DMs reflexively ban your abilities, even if you discussed it beforehand.
I like builds that disrupt enemy plans. Unfortunately grapplers seem to start rules discussions and disruption at the table, which is always bad.
I’d rate strong grappler builds as a 9/10 in theory. But they’re 1/10 in practice.
That sort of DM can just as easily ruin a mounted character, a multiclass spellcaster, a rogue that hides in combat, etc etc... when your DM walks into a session looking for ways to say “no,” they’ll find them, especially if you’re playing a build with “read between the lines” synergies.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I find that even typically great DMs struggle with Grapplers. Everything we do is seems to be an abuse/optimization of the rules. It has them constantly going, "that can't be right" or "that's going to ruin everything I spent all week planning."
And then when things get really bad - boots of speed on a dashing barbarian with 50 ft. of base movement - a level 2 spell like spike growth can do 20d4 damage per round to two enemies. It starts to feel like rules abuse and DMs don't like seeing it.
No it can't. Spike growth causes damage when a character 'moves'. You may 'drag' or 'carry' a grappled creature, but it does not 'move' and in fact is unable to do so (as it has speed 0). Likewise, grabbing someone and dragging them away from an enemy does not cause them to trigger an opportunity attack, etc.
And here-in lies the problem. DMs have to start redefining words to avoid damage triggers.
The opportunity attack rule literally cites what happens when you move without using your movement. A clear indicator that you can, in fact, move without using movement.
"You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction. For example, you don't provoke an opportunity attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe's reach or if gravity causes you to fall past an enemy."
Spike growth procs when a creature moves, not when it uses its movement speed. It doesn't matter if the movement is voluntary or forced.