This thread is just barely fewer posts than the thread about Longstrider on creatures with no walking speed... (if you cast Longstrider on a Grappled target, does its speed increase to 10'? Depends on order of evaluation...).
I have not read all the comments yet, but there are certainly some things I can add to the main post.
cavalier (purple worm night) is useful as a three level dip because then you can mount the enemy before grappling it. This works best as a small creature, possibly through a lineage. Additionally, if you mark your grappled creature, then if it attacks anyone but you, then you get to attack it as a bonus action a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus. (Lineages are from Van Rictons guide to ravenloft)
if you are allowed to take a dark gift, then touch of death is useful, as “when you start your turn grappling a creature or grappled by it, the creature takes 1d10 necrotic damage.” (Dark gifts are also VRGtR)
The Dhampir lineage is the best VRGtR lineage, as you can walk upside down and on verticals surfaces without using your hands at third level, with speed equal to your walking speed. In addition, you gain a bite attack, which isn’t that useful unless you are looking to empower it, which lets you gain HP or a bonus to the next ability check or attack.
If you have an artificer in your party, then tavern brawler gets a boost. Take 2 levels of hexblade, and have your artificer turn your improvised weapon of choice into a magic weapon. Make it your hex warrior weapon, and if it is akin to a dagger, take a mix of rogue and monk. Monk for the unarmed strike and dagger increase damage, and rogue for sneak attack. You can now attack, smite, prone, extra attack, then with your bonus action, grapple the prone enemy.
The barbed hide UA teifling racial feat ads 1d6 damage to the 1d10 from the touch of death dark gift.
2 people can grapple the same target, which may seem redundant, because it is. If they both have the grappler feat, then they can both restrain the target. This may also seem redundant, but it isn’t. Attackers to the grappled creature gets double advantage, which doesn’t do anything unless they have single disadvantage. The grappled creature has double disadvantage, which only matters if they have single advantage. Both of the grapplers are only restrained once, so they only have single dis/advantage. This means that the grappled has disadvantage on attacks made against either grappler, and the grapplers have advantage against the grappled.
I just relaxed something that we have missed on the grappler feat. You get advantage against the target you are grappling, and if they are restrained, you get a second advantage, which wouldn’t do anything, except that you have disadvantage because you are restrained. This means that what the grappled restrain changes is that other people now have advantage against the guy as well, and he as disadvantage against anyone but you. Unfortunately, it also makes it so you have disadvantage against anyone but the grappled, but you still have advantage against him when he attacks normally.
Psi Knight from Tasha’s cauldron gives you the ability to restrain a creature that you have grappled for the small price of an action, but it is a steep investment of 7 levels. (Move the tiny object, handcuffs, to your hands, which are grappling the wrists of the person. While rune night can be used to restrain something, it is a lower level dip and less effective, but it does work.
Spirit Gardians has been mentioned, but other auras work too if you go paladin for a long way.
This thread is just barely fewer posts than the thread about Longstrider on creatures with no walking speed... (if you cast Longstrider on a Grappled target, does its speed increase to 10'? Depends on order of evaluation...).
I don't see a thread on Longstrider, but this has to be a joke, right?
The Grappled creature cannot gain the benefit of any bonus to its speed, such as with Longstrider. It stays zero.
And I suppose it depends on how the creature's speed is listed. If it's a "-" then I'd say no, but if it's a "0" then I'd say yes. Always gotta check what's listed here versus the book, though, since they don't always line up.
This might be a silly question, but why isn't this cleaned up of all but the Guide itself and posted in the pinned post "Guides, Tables, and Other Useful Resources"?
That would prevent it from being eternally necro-ed and arguments about Longstrider and such.
cavalier (purple worm night) is useful as a three level dip because then you can mount the enemy before grappling it.
A creature needs to be willing for you to mount it, so mounting enemies does not work.
If you have an artificer in your party, then tavern brawler gets a boost. Take 2 levels of hexblade, and have your artificer turn your improvised weapon of choice into a magic weapon. Make it your hex warrior weapon, and if it is akin to a dagger, take a mix of rogue and monk. Monk for the unarmed strike and dagger increase damage, and rogue for sneak attack. You can now attack, smite, prone, extra attack, then with your bonus action, grapple the prone enemy.
This is a wild ride, but I'm pretty sure somewhere along the way you can no longer call your magical-hex-warrior-sneak-attacking weapon an improvised weapon. Either it becomes an actual weapon or that stuff doesn't work on it.
Attackers to the grappled creature gets double advantage
Double advantage is not a thing. If you have both advantage and disadvantage on an attack, it's just a regular attack. Even if you have advantage three different ways and disadvantage from only one source.
Grappling and dealing damage: jump and fall (jump) Once you grappled an ennemy, if the environment doesn't provide hasards, you can chose to be one: if you jump high enough, the fall is going to do some damage to the grappled creature. And you as well, so... be careful. Both of you end up prone after falling, but you can get up, whereas your ennemy cannot if you still grapple him.
RAW doesn't a fall break a grapple like forced movement do?
Grappling and dealing damage: jump and fall (jump) Once you grappled an ennemy, if the environment doesn't provide hasards, you can chose to be one: if you jump high enough, the fall is going to do some damage to the grappled creature. And you as well, so... be careful. Both of you end up prone after falling, but you can get up, whereas your ennemy cannot if you still grapple him.
RAW doesn't a fall break a grapple like forced movement do?
No, it doesn't. So long as the grappler is moving, they can drag the grappled target with them. The rule doesn't care how they're moving.
You don't even have to jump high. You can pull them over a ledge and fall that way.
Grappling and dealing damage: jump and fall (jump) Once you grappled an ennemy, if the environment doesn't provide hasards, you can chose to be one: if you jump high enough, the fall is going to do some damage to the grappled creature. And you as well, so... be careful. Both of you end up prone after falling, but you can get up, whereas your ennemy cannot if you still grapple him.
RAW doesn't a fall break a grapple like forced movement do?
No, it doesn't. So long as the grappler is moving, they can drag the grappled target with them. The rule doesn't care how they're moving.
You don't even have to jump high. You can pull them over a ledge and fall that way.
But falling doesn't use your speed, just like being pushed or shoved away. The grappled condition seems to break on forced movement;
Grappled: The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
@LeMarcSharma If you Shove/Push a grappler grappling an ally, does it break the grapple (because of reach) at the cost of 1 attack? RAI?
@JeremyECrawford Leaving the reach of a grappler does, indeed, end the grapple, as stated in the third bullet of the grappled condition (PH, 290). #DnD
Grappling and dealing damage: jump and fall (jump) Once you grappled an ennemy, if the environment doesn't provide hasards, you can chose to be one: if you jump high enough, the fall is going to do some damage to the grappled creature. And you as well, so... be careful. Both of you end up prone after falling, but you can get up, whereas your ennemy cannot if you still grapple him.
RAW doesn't a fall break a grapple like forced movement do?
No, it doesn't. So long as the grappler is moving, they can drag the grappled target with them. The rule doesn't care how they're moving.
You don't even have to jump high. You can pull them over a ledge and fall that way.
But falling doesn't use your speed, just like being pushed or shoved away. The grappled condition seems to break on forced movement;
Grappled: The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
@LeMarcSharma If you Shove/Push a grappler grappling an ally, does it break the grapple (because of reach) at the cost of 1 attack? RAI?
@JeremyECrawford Leaving the reach of a grappler does, indeed, end the grapple, as stated in the third bullet of the grappled condition (PH, 290). #DnD
But if they are both falling at the same rate then wouldn't that not be the case as the grapplee is not leaving the grappler's reach?
But if they are both falling at the same rate then wouldn't that not be the case as the grapplee is not leaving the grappler's reach?
If you use the dumb "after 500 feet, only fall on your own turn" abstraction, then two creatures pushed over a cliff at the same time do move out of each other's reach if its over 500 feet, since they'll both fall 500 on that turn but then further distances on their own turns separately. I don't think that the base PHB rules require that, but the XGTE option pushes for that.
If you're falling of your own volition, such as jumping off of a cliff, I (and most people I've seen offer opinions on the matter) treat that as a High Jump (meaning it does use your speed, and you can drag an enemy with you). If you were to use up your high jump distance and still be falling... I'd consider that remaining distance to be uncontrolled free fall, and could be persuaded that you're not able to drag an enemy with you during the rest of your fall and you come uncoupled.
When we're not talking about a cliff, but rather about coming down off of a high jump suplex, the rules get fuzzy about what to do with the distance you fall after reaching the apex. Is it just free? Is it counted against your speed to be controlled, or a fall that damages you if it exceeds your speed? Is it just falling that damages you no matter what? I treat it as free distance that doesn't count against speed and doesn't damage you as falling, but which does damage any creature you're dragging with you, but not all DMs may agree.
Grappling and dealing damage: jump and fall (jump) Once you grappled an ennemy, if the environment doesn't provide hasards, you can chose to be one: if you jump high enough, the fall is going to do some damage to the grappled creature. And you as well, so... be careful. Both of you end up prone after falling, but you can get up, whereas your ennemy cannot if you still grapple him.
RAW doesn't a fall break a grapple like forced movement do?
No, it doesn't. So long as the grappler is moving, they can drag the grappled target with them. The rule doesn't care how they're moving.
You don't even have to jump high. You can pull them over a ledge and fall that way.
But falling doesn't use your speed, just like being pushed or shoved away. The grappled condition seems to break on forced movement;
Grappled: The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
@LeMarcSharma If you Shove/Push a grappler grappling an ally, does it break the grapple (because of reach) at the cost of 1 attack? RAI?
@JeremyECrawford Leaving the reach of a grappler does, indeed, end the grapple, as stated in the third bullet of the grappled condition (PH, 290). #DnD
But if they are both falling at the same rate then wouldn't that not be the case as the grapplee is not leaving the grappler's reach?
Not if falling cause you to leave the reach of the grappler in general. But i understand your point. You can definitly hold people in freeflying afterall.
Aren't Artificers the best grapplers? With creating magical items and their ability to pump their ability checks, I feel like they are the best for sure.
For now, the best grapplers are Rune Knight fighters if feats are allowed (or multiclassing with a level of rogue), with skill expert in athletics, as they can become Huge and so grapple everything.
If both feats and multiclassing aren't allowed, it's bard I think. Valor or swords. You have innate expertise, you have (or not, depending if you use the expanded spell list from tasha) enlarge / reduce on your spell list, if you don't have it you have magical secrets.
Artificer would require Armorer or Battle Smith, and grabbing expertise somewhere else, for approximately the same results as bards (maybe a bit better, with the CON saving throw proficiency). There is a point to be made that if an ally has a belt of giant strength, you can copy it to have great strength, but I'm pretty sure it's still not as good as Rune Knight.
I'm sorry I havn't updated the guide, and I probably won't: it's quite easier now with Tasha's, and I don't have the time
For now, the best grapplers are Rune Knight fighters if feats are allowed (or multiclassing with a level of rogue), with skill expert in athletics, as they can become Huge and so grapple everything.
If both feats and multiclassing aren't allowed, it's bard I think. Valor or swords. You have innate expertise, you have (or not, depending if you use the expanded spell list from tasha) enlarge / reduce on your spell list, if you don't have it you have magical secrets.
Artificer would require Armorer or Battle Smith, and grabbing expertise somewhere else, for approximately the same results as bards (maybe a bit better, with the CON saving throw proficiency). There is a point to be made that if an ally has a belt of giant strength, you can copy it to have great strength, but I'm pretty sure it's still not as good as Rune Knight.
I'm sorry I havn't updated the guide, and I probably won't: it's quite easier now with Tasha's, and I don't have the time
Yeah Rune knight seems to be the best bet now with the GOOD grapple feats (skill expert) or multiclassing with barb and/or rogue.
I would do Rune Knight and Multiclass with Soulknife Rogue 3. Just play as a Duergar to become huge once per day by level 3 too. That, and with Soulknife 3 you get bonus action dash, expertise, AND a free d6 added to literally every athletics check you will ever make. With Frost rune up and giant's might up, by late game you end up having a +19 to grapple with advantage, and then can toss a d6 in there if you ever somehow fail. Go rogue 5 for more sneak attack and d8 upgrade since going past 15 rune fighter doesn't matter for this build. :)
I played Symic Hybrid Path of the Giant Barbarian using Skill Expert feat and Great Weapon Master. So far, I have Eldritch claw tattoo and +1 Greataxe for items. It have been a blast so far.
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Grappling is serious business
The Spirit Gaurdians argument hurts my soul.
This thread is just barely fewer posts than the thread about Longstrider on creatures with no walking speed... (if you cast Longstrider on a Grappled target, does its speed increase to 10'? Depends on order of evaluation...).
I have not read all the comments yet, but there are certainly some things I can add to the main post.
cavalier (purple worm night) is useful as a three level dip because then you can mount the enemy before grappling it. This works best as a small creature, possibly through a lineage. Additionally, if you mark your grappled creature, then if it attacks anyone but you, then you get to attack it as a bonus action a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus. (Lineages are from Van Rictons guide to ravenloft)
if you are allowed to take a dark gift, then touch of death is useful, as “when you start your turn grappling a creature or grappled by it, the creature takes 1d10 necrotic damage.” (Dark gifts are also VRGtR)
The Dhampir lineage is the best VRGtR lineage, as you can walk upside down and on verticals surfaces without using your hands at third level, with speed equal to your walking speed. In addition, you gain a bite attack, which isn’t that useful unless you are looking to empower it, which lets you gain HP or a bonus to the next ability check or attack.
If you have an artificer in your party, then tavern brawler gets a boost. Take 2 levels of hexblade, and have your artificer turn your improvised weapon of choice into a magic weapon. Make it your hex warrior weapon, and if it is akin to a dagger, take a mix of rogue and monk. Monk for the unarmed strike and dagger increase damage, and rogue for sneak attack. You can now attack, smite, prone, extra attack, then with your bonus action, grapple the prone enemy.
The barbed hide UA teifling racial feat ads 1d6 damage to the 1d10 from the touch of death dark gift.
2 people can grapple the same target, which may seem redundant, because it is. If they both have the grappler feat, then they can both restrain the target. This may also seem redundant, but it isn’t. Attackers to the grappled creature gets double advantage, which doesn’t do anything unless they have single disadvantage. The grappled creature has double disadvantage, which only matters if they have single advantage. Both of the grapplers are only restrained once, so they only have single dis/advantage. This means that the grappled has disadvantage on attacks made against either grappler, and the grapplers have advantage against the grappled.
I just relaxed something that we have missed on the grappler feat. You get advantage against the target you are grappling, and if they are restrained, you get a second advantage, which wouldn’t do anything, except that you have disadvantage because you are restrained. This means that what the grappled restrain changes is that other people now have advantage against the guy as well, and he as disadvantage against anyone but you. Unfortunately, it also makes it so you have disadvantage against anyone but the grappled, but you still have advantage against him when he attacks normally.
Psi Knight from Tasha’s cauldron gives you the ability to restrain a creature that you have grappled for the small price of an action, but it is a steep investment of 7 levels. (Move the tiny object, handcuffs, to your hands, which are grappling the wrists of the person. While rune night can be used to restrain something, it is a lower level dip and less effective, but it does work.
Spirit Gardians has been mentioned, but other auras work too if you go paladin for a long way.
I don't see a thread on Longstrider, but this has to be a joke, right?
The Grappled creature cannot gain the benefit of any bonus to its speed, such as with Longstrider. It stays zero.
And I suppose it depends on how the creature's speed is listed. If it's a "-" then I'd say no, but if it's a "0" then I'd say yes. Always gotta check what's listed here versus the book, though, since they don't always line up.
Longstrider would let the grappler drag the creature 5 more ft though...for what that is worth.
This might be a silly question, but why isn't this cleaned up of all but the Guide itself and posted in the pinned post "Guides, Tables, and Other Useful Resources"?
That would prevent it from being eternally necro-ed and arguments about Longstrider and such.
<Insert clever signature here>
A creature needs to be willing for you to mount it, so mounting enemies does not work.
This is a wild ride, but I'm pretty sure somewhere along the way you can no longer call your magical-hex-warrior-sneak-attacking weapon an improvised weapon. Either it becomes an actual weapon or that stuff doesn't work on it.
Double advantage is not a thing. If you have both advantage and disadvantage on an attack, it's just a regular attack. Even if you have advantage three different ways and disadvantage from only one source.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
RAW doesn't a fall break a grapple like forced movement do?
No, it doesn't. So long as the grappler is moving, they can drag the grappled target with them. The rule doesn't care how they're moving.
You don't even have to jump high. You can pull them over a ledge and fall that way.
But falling doesn't use your speed, just like being pushed or shoved away. The grappled condition seems to break on forced movement;
Grappled: The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
If not RAW it may at least be RAI according to Jeremy Crawford's Tweet https://www.sageadvice.eu/if-you-shovepush-a-grappler-grappling-an-ally-does-it-break-the-grapple-at-the-cost-of-1-attack/
@LeMarcSharma If you Shove/Push a grappler grappling an ally, does it break the grapple (because of reach) at the cost of 1 attack? RAI?
@JeremyECrawford Leaving the reach of a grappler does, indeed, end the grapple, as stated in the third bullet of the grappled condition (PH, 290). #DnD
But if they are both falling at the same rate then wouldn't that not be the case as the grapplee is not leaving the grappler's reach?
If you use the dumb "after 500 feet, only fall on your own turn" abstraction, then two creatures pushed over a cliff at the same time do move out of each other's reach if its over 500 feet, since they'll both fall 500 on that turn but then further distances on their own turns separately. I don't think that the base PHB rules require that, but the XGTE option pushes for that.
If you're falling of your own volition, such as jumping off of a cliff, I (and most people I've seen offer opinions on the matter) treat that as a High Jump (meaning it does use your speed, and you can drag an enemy with you). If you were to use up your high jump distance and still be falling... I'd consider that remaining distance to be uncontrolled free fall, and could be persuaded that you're not able to drag an enemy with you during the rest of your fall and you come uncoupled.
When we're not talking about a cliff, but rather about coming down off of a high jump suplex, the rules get fuzzy about what to do with the distance you fall after reaching the apex. Is it just free? Is it counted against your speed to be controlled, or a fall that damages you if it exceeds your speed? Is it just falling that damages you no matter what? I treat it as free distance that doesn't count against speed and doesn't damage you as falling, but which does damage any creature you're dragging with you, but not all DMs may agree.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Not if falling cause you to leave the reach of the grappler in general. But i understand your point. You can definitly hold people in freeflying afterall.
Aren't Artificers the best grapplers? With creating magical items and their ability to pump their ability checks, I feel like they are the best for sure.
For now, the best grapplers are Rune Knight fighters if feats are allowed (or multiclassing with a level of rogue), with skill expert in athletics, as they can become Huge and so grapple everything.
If both feats and multiclassing aren't allowed, it's bard I think. Valor or swords. You have innate expertise, you have (or not, depending if you use the expanded spell list from tasha) enlarge / reduce on your spell list, if you don't have it you have magical secrets.
Artificer would require Armorer or Battle Smith, and grabbing expertise somewhere else, for approximately the same results as bards (maybe a bit better, with the CON saving throw proficiency). There is a point to be made that if an ally has a belt of giant strength, you can copy it to have great strength, but I'm pretty sure it's still not as good as Rune Knight.
I'm sorry I havn't updated the guide, and I probably won't: it's quite easier now with Tasha's, and I don't have the time
My homebrew feat for thrown weapons, feat to help DMs extend Sorcerer's spells known list, and my homebrew combo monk subclass (diablo inspired)!
Yeah Rune knight seems to be the best bet now with the GOOD grapple feats (skill expert) or multiclassing with barb and/or rogue.
I would do Rune Knight and Multiclass with Soulknife Rogue 3. Just play as a Duergar to become huge once per day by level 3 too. That, and with Soulknife 3 you get bonus action dash, expertise, AND a free d6 added to literally every athletics check you will ever make. With Frost rune up and giant's might up, by late game you end up having a +19 to grapple with advantage, and then can toss a d6 in there if you ever somehow fail. Go rogue 5 for more sneak attack and d8 upgrade since going past 15 rune fighter doesn't matter for this build. :)
I played Symic Hybrid Path of the Giant Barbarian using Skill Expert feat and Great Weapon Master. So far, I have Eldritch claw tattoo and +1 Greataxe for items. It have been a blast so far.