The nature and reputation of the Paladin class makes it a better face. A devoted follower granted spells by a GOD goes to the best parties. Someone that has an bound to a mere 'otherworldly being' are allowed to the party only as curiosities. Too much fear of the unknown and of course "Only an otherworldly? Maybe some day he will make it to Demi-God."
The nature and reputation of the Paladin class makes it a better face. A devoted follower granted spells by a GOD goes to the best parties. Someone that has an bound to a mere 'otherworldly being' are allowed to the party only as curiosities. Too much fear of the unknown and of course "Only an otherworldly? Maybe some day he will make it to Demi-God."
Sometimes the fluff matters.
Paladins are no more uniformly sworn to a deity than Warlocks are (and some Warlocks are indeed sworn to deities). You could have a setting where everyone has been convinced otherwise, but not all settings are like that.
The nature and reputation of the Paladin class makes it a better face.
This is going to be heavily setting dependent, I think. If your paladins go around burning entire villages to the ground because something supernatural and 'evil' was in it somewhere... well, they'd have an entirely different reputation. One that doesn't get them invited to parties, or, really invited to anything.
A devoted follower granted spells by a GOD goes to the best parties.
A... god? They get their power from an oath. To a cause.
Someone that has an bound to a mere 'otherworldly being' are allowed to the party only as curiosities.
The great old ones might be more powerful than deities. They're on a level where they don't even spare their attention for the goings on of the mortal world. They might be unto gods to the gods.
Too much fear of the unknown and of course "Only an otherworldly? Maybe some day he will make it to Demi-God."
Gods have warlocks too yo.
Sometimes the fluff matters.
Yes, the gods, in their heavenly prison, cower before the coming of the great master's return. See how they send their agents, so desperately, to stop us? Cowards! Afraid of the new era we will usher upon this land!
Brother, I really love this tier list. Can u make me a great favor? Can u add The Artificer here? Please! And, can u change The Ranger notes with The Tasha's Ranger if him haver a better or worse note in any role? I really want it, thank you for this tier list!
not to burst your bubble but the last time this tier list was edited was the end of 2017, just under 4 years ago. There's been a bunch of material released in the meantime that can greatly affect the results of this list.
Treantmonk is currently ranking all (official) subclasses. Depending on if you like his style, your mileage may vary, though.
Treantmonk is listing all classes, but he is rating them almost purely for combats. THat's why I feel that tierlist in this topic was much better, it tried to help understanding strong and weak sides of each class in different parts of the level scale.
I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread, but from what I skimmed through I think no one mentioned late game monk tanky-ness. It's admittedly very late game, but cumulates for a while. When we get to this 18+ level it's an absolute nightmare to stop. I had an occasion to play above 20 level open hand and saw Barbarian of the same level fall before me. Both were attacked, but only one was getting damaged. Admittedly absolutely anecdotal evidence, but truly by that point of the game I really stopped getting knocked out at all.
There are few things to take into consideration:
-Proficient in all saves with 2 of the most major ones being leading Attributes (Dex Wis) for the class, with third being secondary (Con) and ability to reroll save is pretty meaningful. In this category with it's the most resistant class, out there easily outpacing even the paladin with aura. Late game save abilities can get absolute brutal dmg and surviving them becomes quite a big part of staying alive.
-AC gets decent by late game, even without anything magical will probably be on 20, but let's be honest most classes AC at that point will be fairly buffed with some items. With build in invisibility and possible bonus action most attacks against monk will be made with disadvantage.
-And here is the big one Resistance to all but force damage. That makes all the difference. Does costs 1/4 of all Ki, but looking on how much it does with invisibility against anyone without true sight, it will be active every meaningful fight.
-Mobility would be a peculiar point for tanky-ness, but it could definitely be helpful in saving your team from an enemy fire. There aren't many hard abilities for getting enemies attention on you, or covering allies, but being able to nearly always get to the enemy leader (if there is one) and hitting him in the face goes a very long way to getting all attention (and murderous intentions) on yourself. Also getting into melee with archers can make them rethink shooting any of your companions. Again situational, as you wouldn't do that if enemy front can get to your back. But it's very possible they can't that easily and their possibilites are dashing to your guys and letting you take down their back row. Or going back and attacking you. It is a bit of a skirmisher tactic, but what makes late monk pretty tanky is ability to stay there surrounded and survive enemies hitting you from all around.
-Evasion, Slow fall, Full Immunity to dieses and poison, Arrow caching are all situational, but still worth to mention, just how many dmg mitigating abilities monk truly has, by this point.
Yes we are still talking only d8 HP, but there is no way, of reliably getting the dmg in, while tanky classes always have some major Achilles heel that can take them down. I think we might want to consider bumping late game Monk to B in tank.
There are creatures that are hard to tank for a Monk, mostly huge monsters getting to +17 to hit, that can get dmg in even with disadvantage. There typical Tank will do way better. With creatures relying on big abilities to take someone down situation flips.
I also find extremly wierd how Monk s was classified on DPR. And that was picked up by some people before I'm sure. Starting as low as it gets, with relatively decent number of attack. Suddenly jumping to highest possible in late game. There are no general 15+ monk abilities for hitting harder, especially that much harder. Some subclasses have neat skills, but not all and they varie in quality greatly. I would say it's C across the board, maybe B pushing it. What is there now doesn't make much sens to me.
I still agree class can be seen as D overall. Not many people get to the level where monk becomes an actual monster. Before that it's way too squishy for the place on the battlefield the class would really like to be in, so behind enemy lines decimating priority targets. Which leads to either unconscious monk, or struggling to make a major difference. It desperately needs something like rogue's Uncanny Dodge to boost survivability earlier. With not that many spaces to be very useful outside of combat, unless we count good mobility. It's a class that's hard to recommend to someone for power early game.
The nature and reputation of the Paladin class makes it a better face. A devoted follower granted spells by a GOD goes to the best parties. Someone that has an bound to a mere 'otherworldly being' are allowed to the party only as curiosities. Too much fear of the unknown and of course "Only an otherworldly? Maybe some day he will make it to Demi-God."
Sometimes the fluff matters.
Paladins are no more uniformly sworn to a deity than Warlocks are (and some Warlocks are indeed sworn to deities). You could have a setting where everyone has been convinced otherwise, but not all settings are like that.
This is going to be heavily setting dependent, I think. If your paladins go around burning entire villages to the ground because something supernatural and 'evil' was in it somewhere... well, they'd have an entirely different reputation. One that doesn't get them invited to parties, or, really invited to anything.
A... god? They get their power from an oath. To a cause.
The great old ones might be more powerful than deities. They're on a level where they don't even spare their attention for the goings on of the mortal world. They might be unto gods to the gods.
Gods have warlocks too yo.
Yes, the gods, in their heavenly prison, cower before the coming of the great master's return. See how they send their agents, so desperately, to stop us? Cowards! Afraid of the new era we will usher upon this land!
I got quotes!
Brother, I really love this tier list. Can u make me a great favor? Can u add The Artificer here? Please! And, can u change The Ranger notes with The Tasha's Ranger if him haver a better or worse note in any role? I really want it, thank you for this tier list!
Thank you so much for this! It was incredibly helpful, and became the defining factor in several of my decisions. :)
not to burst your bubble but the last time this tier list was edited was the end of 2017, just under 4 years ago. There's been a bunch of material released in the meantime that can greatly affect the results of this list.
Treantmonk is currently ranking all (official) subclasses. Depending on if you like his style, your mileage may vary, though.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
great video link, thank you!
Treantmonk is listing all classes, but he is rating them almost purely for combats.
THat's why I feel that tierlist in this topic was much better, it tried to help understanding strong and weak sides of each class in different parts of the level scale.
I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread, but from what I skimmed through I think no one mentioned late game monk tanky-ness. It's admittedly very late game, but cumulates for a while. When we get to this 18+ level it's an absolute nightmare to stop. I had an occasion to play above 20 level open hand and saw Barbarian of the same level fall before me. Both were attacked, but only one was getting damaged. Admittedly absolutely anecdotal evidence, but truly by that point of the game I really stopped getting knocked out at all.
There are few things to take into consideration:
-Proficient in all saves with 2 of the most major ones being leading Attributes (Dex Wis) for the class, with third being secondary (Con) and ability to reroll save is pretty meaningful. In this category with it's the most resistant class, out there easily outpacing even the paladin with aura. Late game save abilities can get absolute brutal dmg and surviving them becomes quite a big part of staying alive.
-AC gets decent by late game, even without anything magical will probably be on 20, but let's be honest most classes AC at that point will be fairly buffed with some items. With build in invisibility and possible bonus action most attacks against monk will be made with disadvantage.
-And here is the big one Resistance to all but force damage. That makes all the difference. Does costs 1/4 of all Ki, but looking on how much it does with invisibility against anyone without true sight, it will be active every meaningful fight.
-Mobility would be a peculiar point for tanky-ness, but it could definitely be helpful in saving your team from an enemy fire. There aren't many hard abilities for getting enemies attention on you, or covering allies, but being able to nearly always get to the enemy leader (if there is one) and hitting him in the face goes a very long way to getting all attention (and murderous intentions) on yourself. Also getting into melee with archers can make them rethink shooting any of your companions. Again situational, as you wouldn't do that if enemy front can get to your back. But it's very possible they can't that easily and their possibilites are dashing to your guys and letting you take down their back row. Or going back and attacking you. It is a bit of a skirmisher tactic, but what makes late monk pretty tanky is ability to stay there surrounded and survive enemies hitting you from all around.
-Evasion, Slow fall, Full Immunity to dieses and poison, Arrow caching are all situational, but still worth to mention, just how many dmg mitigating abilities monk truly has, by this point.
Yes we are still talking only d8 HP, but there is no way, of reliably getting the dmg in, while tanky classes always have some major Achilles heel that can take them down. I think we might want to consider bumping late game Monk to B in tank.
There are creatures that are hard to tank for a Monk, mostly huge monsters getting to +17 to hit, that can get dmg in even with disadvantage. There typical Tank will do way better. With creatures relying on big abilities to take someone down situation flips.
I also find extremly wierd how Monk s was classified on DPR. And that was picked up by some people before I'm sure. Starting as low as it gets, with relatively decent number of attack. Suddenly jumping to highest possible in late game. There are no general 15+ monk abilities for hitting harder, especially that much harder. Some subclasses have neat skills, but not all and they varie in quality greatly. I would say it's C across the board, maybe B pushing it. What is there now doesn't make much sens to me.
I still agree class can be seen as D overall. Not many people get to the level where monk becomes an actual monster. Before that it's way too squishy for the place on the battlefield the class would really like to be in, so behind enemy lines decimating priority targets. Which leads to either unconscious monk, or struggling to make a major difference. It desperately needs something like rogue's Uncanny Dodge to boost survivability earlier. With not that many spaces to be very useful outside of combat, unless we count good mobility. It's a class that's hard to recommend to someone for power early game.