The D&D Phoenix Sorceror seems to get a strong amount of support from the community. However, the mechanics of the archetype are questionable. Because of how deeply integrated the mechanics were with a single feature (Mantle of Flame), and dependency on a single damage type (Fire), finding a proper balance seemed difficult without rebuilding the character.
This thread aims to do that, while also helping others rebuild the Phoenix Sorcerer themselves through understanding the core concepts of the original build and the intentions for the build itself.
By reading the archetype description, we get an idea of what the Designers were going for with this archetype.
Your power draws from the immortal flame that fuels the legendary phoenix. You or your ancestors perhaps rendered a phoenix a great service, or you were born in its presence. Whatever the cause, a shard of the phoenix’s power dwells within you. That power is a mixed blessing. Like the mythical creature, you can invoke fiery energy and gain the ability to cheat death itself. This power comes at a cost. The fire within you seethes, demanding to be unleashed. You sometimes find yourself absentmindedly feeding fires. You can’t bear to allow a fire to sputter out. You feel most comfortable while holding a lit torch or sitting in front of a campfire. More importantly, this gift comes with no special protection from fire. You are as vulnerable as any other creature to fiery magic, including your own. Phoenix sorcerers can use their powers to pull themselves back from the brink of death, and all too often their own, rash nature or reliance on destructive magic is what puts them there in the first place. Such sorcerers are wanderers by necessity. The volatile nature of their magic makes other folk nervous. If a fire breaks out in town, a phoenix sorcerer had best flee, whether guilty or not. Fire is a dangerous force, and phoenix sorcerers have a reputation (deserved or not) for reckless behavior, confident that the essence of the phoenix can save them.
It's possible that the Designers have abandoned this description. But it's equally likely they've kept it. So let's look into this description and make a list of its core parts.
Reckless
Neither Fire Resistant nor Immune
Evocation based
Death Cheater
If we decide to break away from these concepts, which I have, then we should fall back on the Mythos that surrounds the Phoenix. These are the major aspects of the Phoenix we should have in the Archetype.
Fire Based
Birds & Flight
Rebirth
And these are minor aspects we should consider using.
Affiliation with Ash
Immolation & Self-Immolation
Primordial Creature (?)
Majestic & Charming (Note: Reckless makes sense with fire. However, Phoenix's are often considered the refined and tamed form of fire, capable of choosing what they want to burn)
When rebuilding, it's important to take note of some of the issues of the past build.
The Archetype relied heavily on Fire damage for it's features, making it useless against Fire Resistance and Immunity. 1a. It had no feature to overcome this flaw.
Two out of the five features of this archetype were tied to one other feature. 2a. That feature only had a single use over a long rest. 2b. Tieing too many features into a single feature can create issues that lead to poor design. 2c. That dependency forced it to be a low level spell when it could benefit from being higher level. 2e. That dependency meant near-perfect timing to get the most use out of it. 2f. The boost affected the other features directly, instead of indirectly, creating a dependency.
The archetype had features that were harmful to its party. 3a. To avoid harming your party, awkward and dangerous positioning was required.
The archetype relied on short range features. 4a. These are counter-intuitive to the class and Fire evocation spells in general. 4b. To get the most out of these abilities, awkward and dangerous positioning was required. 4c. None of the class or archetype's other features enhanced the class's survivability in these situations.
The archetype didn't use any Sorcerer points, a key class feature of the Sorcerer.
By addressing these flaws, we can create a more stable Phoenix Sorceror.
I will propose several features; more than the 5 archetype feature slots that are available. This will allow us to be modular when rebuilding the Phoenix Sorcerer. It's my hope others will not only suggest their own build by piecing together parts from this list, but also create their own features for others to use. Each feature I introduce will have a brief explanation of why I've suggested it and how it can be used in the build. If you wish to modify a feature so it can fit in a particular level tier or just want to change it's function, please do.
Immolate The heart of fire lies in the destructive magic of the Phoenix Sorcerer. It can't help but escape when this energy is released. Whenever the Phoenix Sorcerer casts an evocation spell, a reckless flame leaps from the Sorcerer, striking the nearest target within 10 feet for damage equal to the Sorcerer's Charisma Modifier plus the Spells level. The Phoenix Sorcerer may use a bonus action to control what the flame hits, or redirect it to hit nothing. (This keeps the reckless behavior of fire, but allows the Sorcerer to control it with some effort. It also works off of evocation spells, not Fire Damage, which gives flexibility to the Phoenix Sorcerer's ability to overcome Fire Resistance)
Fire Infusion The Phoenix Sorcerer's manipulation of Fire allows them to transform the very essence of Evocation spells. Whenever the Phoenix Sorcerer rolls Thunder, Lightning or Acid damage for a spell, they may spend 1 Sorcerer Point to change a single die to Fire damage. The Sorcerer may now use their bonus action to consume the reckless flame created by Immolate, healing themselves equal to the level of the Spell slot consumed. (0 for Cantrips) (This builds off of Nourishing Flame, and gives the Phoenix Sorcerer a means to change some damage to Fire damage)
Radiant Flame The Fire in the Phoenix Sorcerer can transcend the ability to burn, transforming itself into pure, holy flames. This energy even has the ability to soothe the sorcerer's wounds. Whenever the Phoenix Sorcerer rolls for Fire Damage, they may spend 1 Sorcerer Point to change a single die to Radiant damage instead of Fire Damage. They may spend another Sorcerer point to heal themselves for the amount rolled on the die. (This is an alternative to Fire Infusion, meant to support a different Archetype build. It is a tool to overcome Fire Immunity and Fire Resistance, and builds off of Nourishing Flame in a different way.)
Nourishing Flame The same one from the UA Phoenix Sorcerer. (This was one of the spells commonly not altered or suggested for change. As an unaltered feature, it still works. However, if you make it dependent on Sorcerer Points you may be able to make it available at an earlier level.)
From the Ash If you are reduced to 0 hit points, and are not killed outright, you are instead reduced to 1 hit point. You then disappear in a burst of flame, and are taken to the Border Ethereal. A pile of ash occupies the spot you once stood, and a cloud of ash billows out of it in a 15 foot radius sphere. The sphere billows around corners. Any creature who enters or starts it's turn in the sphere can't benefit from being invisible until they clear the ash from their form. While in the sphere, creatures are obscured and blinded. A wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it. While in the Border Ethereal, you can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything burns with a reddish gold tint, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away. While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane. Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you, and can't interact with you, unless a special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so. On your next turn, the sphere of ash ignites. Any creature in the sphere must make a Dexterity saving throw against your spell casting DC. On a failed save they take fire damage equal to your sorcerer level plus your charisma modifier, or half as much damage on a successful save. You are then returned to the plane you once stood, reforming out of the ash and fire. This feature has no effect if you are on the Ethereal Plane, or a plane that doesn't border it, such as one of the Outer Planes. Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest. (This is the combination of several spells. Fog Cloud, Darkness, Faerie Fire and Etherealness. It's meant to highlight the rebirth of the Phoenix, and is definitely a mid to high tier ability. Ash can easily be removed with a Prestidigitation spell. It does suffer from being rather long and full of rules, which is a concern.)
Phoenix Flight For one minute, Fiery wings sprout from your back, granting of flying speed of 30 feet. This ability lasts one minute, and can be used a number of times equal to the Sorcerer's Charisma modifier. (Minimum One) As well, the Sorcerer can perform an unarmed strike with the wings to a target within 5 feet, dealing 1d4 Fire damage. (The damage bonus can be omitted, if need be. Understandably, flight is a thorn to some DMs, and that bonus alone is considered enough. This can be a low to mid tier feature.)
Ignite The same one from the original UA Phoenix Sorcerer.
Produce Flame The Sorcerer starts off knowing the Produce Flame cantrip. (An alternative to the Ignite feature)
Create Bonfire The Sorcerer starts off knowing the Create Bonfire cantrip. (An alternative to the Ignite feature)
Firetongue You can speak, read, and write Primordial. Knowing this language allows you to understand and be understood by those who speak its dialects: Ignan, Aquan, Auran, and Terran. (An alternative to the Ignite feature.)
Fire Affinity The Phoenix Sorcerer shares a magical bond with all things fire. When casting spells from the schools of Illusion or Enchantment, creatures with Fire Immunity or Resistance have disadvantage on their saving throws. (This is an alternative strategy to overcoming Fire Resistance)
Ash and Soot When a creature fails a save against an evocation spell of 1st level or higher that deals fire damage, they are also marred by the ash left behind. Until it is cleared from their form, creatures have advantage on attack rolls made against them, and they cannot benefit from the effects of Invisibility. (This is a minor way to boost the supporting features of a Phoenix Sorcerer. Even if the creature is Fire Immune or Resistant, they may suffer from the attack. It also plays up the ash element of the Phoenix Sorcerer.)
Form of the Phoenix (v2) As a bonus action, you magically engulf yourself in a mantle of flame, fiery wings, and burning talons. During this time, you gain the following benefits:
• You have resistance to all damage. • You gain a 40 foot fly speed. • When you perform an attack, you may use a bonus action to make an unarmed attack with your talons, dealing 2d6 fire damage. • You shed bright light in a 30-foot radius and dim light for an additional 30 feet. • Any creature takes fire damage equal to your Charisma modifier if it hits you with a melee attack from within 5 feet of you or if it touches you. • Whenever you roll fire damage on your turn, the roll gains a bonus to equal to your Charisma modifier. • The first time you deal fire damage in this form, it deals an additional 20 fire damage.
Whenever you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest. (The original ability, but no longer dependent on two other abilities being available, along with a slight addition)
Phoenix Spark (v2) The fiery energy within you grows restless and vengeful. In the face of defeat, it surges outward to preserve you through the ash of your rebirth. If you are reduced to 0 hit points, you can use your reaction to draw on the spark of the phoenix. You are instead reduced to 1 hit point. All creatures within 10 feet of you must make a dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, they are knocked back 5ft from an explosion of ash, and until it's removed from their form, attacks against them have advantage and they cannot benefit from the Invisibility spell. For 1 minute after, all healing you receive is increased by your Charisma modifier. Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest. (This is a simple modification to the Phoenix Spark that removes the damage, and adds a beneficial effect meant to synergize with healing sources such as Nourishing Flame. I toyed with the idea of making the ash have healing properties as well, which your allies can benefit from if they're hit by the ash)
Self-Immolation As a reaction to a ranged or melee attack, you may choose to take fire damage equal to your Sorcerer level. You can wait until after the DM rolls the d20 before deciding to use Self-Immolation, but must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails. Magical flames wreath around your body, increasing your AC by 2 during the attacker's turn. For each attack roll that hits, magical flames disperse from the source of damage, dealing fire damage back to the attacker equal to half your Sorcerer level plus your Charisma modifier. You may use this spell twice, and then you cannot use it against until you finish a long rest. If the damage from Self-Immolation would take you down to 0 health, and you haven't used Phoenix Spark, you may use Phoenix Spark without using a reaction. If this knocks the creature out of range to attack you, they automatically fail their attack. (This feature plays up the aspect of Self-Immolation that surrounds the Phoenix. It also gives them a means to proc their Rebirth feature in a different way. It does need changes. But I wanted to provide it as an example.)
I also wanted to add some Phoenix Soul Quirks that play up the ash affinity of the Phoenix:
Whenever you touch or handle something, a small streak of ash is left behind.
Your hair is jet black, and always has the faint smell and texture of soot.
Water makes you uneasy, and any time you touch it, it becomes inky and black.
These are a few samples and ideas I had to build a better Phoenix Sorcerer. I appreciate community assistance in this. The features I came up with are meant to be malleable and adaptable to be appropriate at different levels. I encourage looking at the features and removing parts, moving parts from one feature to another, or altering existing parts. (Example: Changing the limitation of a feature from short rests and long rests to sorcerer point costs. Changing when a feature procs, such as when a sorcerer point is used, when fire damage is rolled, when a spell from a particular school is used, when a spell from 1st level or higher is used, when a cantrip is used. Expanding on the usability of a feature. Creating secondary bonuses to a feature. Changing a feature to be melee range, or increasing it's distance or duration. Upping the number of uses or reducing them. Just to name a few.)
It is my hope that people will suggest additional features, and use suggested features to present new builds here for the Phoenix Sorcerer. (Note: I prefer moving away from Mantle of Flame, as many issues stemmed from this feature. It relied on melee ranges, which compounded problems when coupled with features like Phoenix Spark and Ignite, which were also 5ft features. The Charisma modifier boost to fire damage needed to be reworded. A similar ability can be suggested, but should try to distance itself from these flaws. I also prefer avoiding ability dependency, for previously stated reasons.)
The D&D Phoenix Sorceror seems to get a strong amount of support from the community.
However, the mechanics of the archetype are questionable. Because of how deeply integrated the mechanics were with a single feature (Mantle of Flame), and dependency on a single damage type (Fire), finding a proper balance seemed difficult without rebuilding the character.
This thread aims to do that, while also helping others rebuild the Phoenix Sorcerer themselves through understanding the core concepts of the original build and the intentions for the build itself.
By reading the archetype description, we get an idea of what the Designers were going for with this archetype.
Your power draws from the immortal flame that fuels the legendary phoenix. You or your ancestors perhaps rendered a phoenix a great service, or you were born in its presence. Whatever the cause, a shard of the phoenix’s power dwells within you. That power is a mixed blessing. Like the mythical creature, you can invoke fiery energy and gain the ability to cheat death itself. This power comes at a cost. The fire within you seethes, demanding to be unleashed. You sometimes find yourself absentmindedly feeding fires. You can’t bear to allow a fire to sputter out. You feel most comfortable while holding a lit torch or sitting in front of a campfire. More importantly, this gift comes with no special protection from fire. You are as vulnerable as any other creature to fiery magic, including your own. Phoenix sorcerers can use their powers to pull themselves back from the brink of death, and all too often their own, rash nature or reliance on destructive magic is what puts them there in the first place. Such sorcerers are wanderers by necessity. The volatile nature of their magic makes other folk nervous. If a fire breaks out in town, a phoenix sorcerer had best flee, whether guilty or not. Fire is a dangerous force, and phoenix sorcerers have a reputation (deserved or not) for reckless behavior, confident that the essence of the phoenix can save them.
It's possible that the Designers have abandoned this description. But it's equally likely they've kept it. So let's look into this description and make a list of its core parts.
If we decide to break away from these concepts, which I have, then we should fall back on the Mythos that surrounds the Phoenix. These are the major aspects of the Phoenix we should have in the Archetype.
And these are minor aspects we should consider using.
(Note: Reckless makes sense with fire. However, Phoenix's are often considered the refined and tamed form of fire, capable of choosing what they want to burn)
When rebuilding, it's important to take note of some of the issues of the past build.
1a. It had no feature to overcome this flaw.
2a. That feature only had a single use over a long rest.
2b. Tieing too many features into a single feature can create issues that lead to poor design.
2c. That dependency forced it to be a low level spell when it could benefit from being higher level.
2e. That dependency meant near-perfect timing to get the most use out of it.
2f. The boost affected the other features directly, instead of indirectly, creating a dependency.
3a. To avoid harming your party, awkward and dangerous positioning was required.
4a. These are counter-intuitive to the class and Fire evocation spells in general.
4b. To get the most out of these abilities, awkward and dangerous positioning was required.
4c. None of the class or archetype's other features enhanced the class's survivability in these situations.
By addressing these flaws, we can create a more stable Phoenix Sorceror.
I will propose several features; more than the 5 archetype feature slots that are available. This will allow us to be modular when rebuilding the Phoenix Sorcerer. It's my hope others will not only suggest their own build by piecing together parts from this list, but also create their own features for others to use.
Each feature I introduce will have a brief explanation of why I've suggested it and how it can be used in the build. If you wish to modify a feature so it can fit in a particular level tier or just want to change it's function, please do.
The heart of fire lies in the destructive magic of the Phoenix Sorcerer. It can't help but escape when this energy is released. Whenever the Phoenix Sorcerer casts an evocation spell, a reckless flame leaps from the Sorcerer, striking the nearest target within 10 feet for damage equal to the Sorcerer's Charisma Modifier plus the Spells level. The Phoenix Sorcerer may use a bonus action to control what the flame hits, or redirect it to hit nothing.
(This keeps the reckless behavior of fire, but allows the Sorcerer to control it with some effort. It also works off of evocation spells, not Fire Damage, which gives flexibility to the Phoenix Sorcerer's ability to overcome Fire Resistance)
The Phoenix Sorcerer's manipulation of Fire allows them to transform the very essence of Evocation spells. Whenever the Phoenix Sorcerer rolls Thunder, Lightning or Acid damage for a spell, they may spend 1 Sorcerer Point to change a single die to Fire damage.
The Sorcerer may now use their bonus action to consume the reckless flame created by Immolate, healing themselves equal to the level of the Spell slot consumed. (0 for Cantrips)
(This builds off of Nourishing Flame, and gives the Phoenix Sorcerer a means to change some damage to Fire damage)
The Fire in the Phoenix Sorcerer can transcend the ability to burn, transforming itself into pure, holy flames. This energy even has the ability to soothe the sorcerer's wounds. Whenever the Phoenix Sorcerer rolls for Fire Damage, they may spend 1 Sorcerer Point to change a single die to Radiant damage instead of Fire Damage.
They may spend another Sorcerer point to heal themselves for the amount rolled on the die.
(This is an alternative to Fire Infusion, meant to support a different Archetype build. It is a tool to overcome Fire Immunity and Fire Resistance, and builds off of Nourishing Flame in a different way.)
The same one from the UA Phoenix Sorcerer.
(This was one of the spells commonly not altered or suggested for change. As an unaltered feature, it still works. However, if you make it dependent on Sorcerer Points you may be able to make it available at an earlier level.)
If you are reduced to 0 hit points, and are not killed outright, you are instead reduced to 1 hit point. You then disappear in a burst of flame, and are taken to the Border Ethereal. A pile of ash occupies the spot you once stood, and a cloud of ash billows out of it in a 15 foot radius sphere. The sphere billows around corners. Any creature who enters or starts it's turn in the sphere can't benefit from being invisible until they clear the ash from their form. While in the sphere, creatures are obscured and blinded. A wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it.
While in the Border Ethereal, you can see and hear the plane you originated from, but everything burns with a reddish gold tint, and you can't see anything more than 60 feet away.
While on the Ethereal Plane, you can only affect and be affected by other creatures on that plane. Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you, and can't interact with you, unless a special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so.
On your next turn, the sphere of ash ignites. Any creature in the sphere must make a Dexterity saving throw against your spell casting DC. On a failed save they take fire damage equal to your sorcerer level plus your charisma modifier, or half as much damage on a successful save. You are then returned to the plane you once stood, reforming out of the ash and fire.
This feature has no effect if you are on the Ethereal Plane, or a plane that doesn't border it, such as one of the Outer Planes.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.
(This is the combination of several spells. Fog Cloud, Darkness, Faerie Fire and Etherealness. It's meant to highlight the rebirth of the Phoenix, and is definitely a mid to high tier ability. Ash can easily be removed with a Prestidigitation spell. It does suffer from being rather long and full of rules, which is a concern.)
For one minute, Fiery wings sprout from your back, granting of flying speed of 30 feet. This ability lasts one minute, and can be used a number of times equal to the Sorcerer's Charisma modifier. (Minimum One)
As well, the Sorcerer can perform an unarmed strike with the wings to a target within 5 feet, dealing 1d4 Fire damage.
(The damage bonus can be omitted, if need be. Understandably, flight is a thorn to some DMs, and that bonus alone is considered enough. This can be a low to mid tier feature.)
The same one from the original UA Phoenix Sorcerer.
The Sorcerer starts off knowing the Produce Flame cantrip.
(An alternative to the Ignite feature)
The Sorcerer starts off knowing the Create Bonfire cantrip.
(An alternative to the Ignite feature)
You can speak, read, and write Primordial. Knowing this language allows you to understand and be understood by those who speak its dialects: Ignan, Aquan, Auran, and Terran.
(An alternative to the Ignite feature.)
The Phoenix Sorcerer shares a magical bond with all things fire. When casting spells from the schools of Illusion or Enchantment, creatures with Fire Immunity or Resistance have disadvantage on their saving throws.
(This is an alternative strategy to overcoming Fire Resistance)
When a creature fails a save against an evocation spell of 1st level or higher that deals fire damage, they are also marred by the ash left behind. Until it is cleared from their form, creatures have advantage on attack rolls made against them, and they cannot benefit from the effects of Invisibility.
(This is a minor way to boost the supporting features of a Phoenix Sorcerer. Even if the creature is Fire Immune or Resistant, they may suffer from the attack. It also plays up the ash element of the Phoenix Sorcerer.)
As a bonus action, you magically engulf yourself in a mantle of flame, fiery wings, and burning talons. During this time, you gain the following benefits:
• You have resistance to all damage.
• You gain a 40 foot fly speed.
• When you perform an attack, you may use a bonus action to make an unarmed attack with your talons, dealing 2d6 fire damage.
• You shed bright light in a 30-foot radius and dim light for an additional 30 feet.
• Any creature takes fire damage equal to your Charisma modifier if it hits you with a melee attack from within 5 feet of you or if it touches you.
• Whenever you roll fire damage on your turn, the roll gains a bonus to equal to your Charisma modifier.
• The first time you deal fire damage in this form, it deals an additional 20 fire damage.
Whenever you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.
(The original ability, but no longer dependent on two other abilities being available, along with a slight addition)
The fiery energy within you grows restless and vengeful. In the face of defeat, it surges outward to preserve you through the ash of your rebirth. If you are reduced to 0 hit points, you can use your reaction to draw on the spark of the phoenix. You are instead reduced to 1 hit point. All creatures within 10 feet of you must make a dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, they are knocked back 5ft from an explosion of ash, and until it's removed from their form, attacks against them have advantage and they cannot benefit from the Invisibility spell. For 1 minute after, all healing you receive is increased by your Charisma modifier.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.
(This is a simple modification to the Phoenix Spark that removes the damage, and adds a beneficial effect meant to synergize with healing sources such as Nourishing Flame. I toyed with the idea of making the ash have healing properties as well, which your allies can benefit from if they're hit by the ash)
As a reaction to a ranged or melee attack, you may choose to take fire damage equal to your Sorcerer level. You can wait until after the DM rolls the d20 before deciding to use Self-Immolation, but must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails. Magical flames wreath around your body, increasing your AC by 2 during the attacker's turn. For each attack roll that hits, magical flames disperse from the source of damage, dealing fire damage back to the attacker equal to half your Sorcerer level plus your Charisma modifier.
You may use this spell twice, and then you cannot use it against until you finish a long rest.
If the damage from Self-Immolation would take you down to 0 health, and you haven't used Phoenix Spark, you may use Phoenix Spark without using a reaction. If this knocks the creature out of range to attack you, they automatically fail their attack.
(This feature plays up the aspect of Self-Immolation that surrounds the Phoenix. It also gives them a means to proc their Rebirth feature in a different way. It does need changes. But I wanted to provide it as an example.)
I also wanted to add some Phoenix Soul Quirks that play up the ash affinity of the Phoenix:
These are a few samples and ideas I had to build a better Phoenix Sorcerer. I appreciate community assistance in this. The features I came up with are meant to be malleable and adaptable to be appropriate at different levels. I encourage looking at the features and removing parts, moving parts from one feature to another, or altering existing parts.
(Example: Changing the limitation of a feature from short rests and long rests to sorcerer point costs. Changing when a feature procs, such as when a sorcerer point is used, when fire damage is rolled, when a spell from a particular school is used, when a spell from 1st level or higher is used, when a cantrip is used. Expanding on the usability of a feature. Creating secondary bonuses to a feature. Changing a feature to be melee range, or increasing it's distance or duration. Upping the number of uses or reducing them. Just to name a few.)
It is my hope that people will suggest additional features, and use suggested features to present new builds here for the Phoenix Sorcerer.
(Note: I prefer moving away from Mantle of Flame, as many issues stemmed from this feature. It relied on melee ranges, which compounded problems when coupled with features like Phoenix Spark and Ignite, which were also 5ft features. The Charisma modifier boost to fire damage needed to be reworded. A similar ability can be suggested, but should try to distance itself from these flaws. I also prefer avoiding ability dependency, for previously stated reasons.)