This OGL 1.1 is really a GSL n a blantant money grab designed to kill third party content. If it sticks I will be done with D&D. Granted loosing me means nothing for Wizards but I will be happy playing Forged in the Dark, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Genesys n other games more so than supporting this hostile to creators version of D&D.
Our group plays 5e on Foundry, and we still buy physical books as well as D&D Beyond books and subscription. The leaked OGL 1.1 looks like it's attacking VTTs. If that turns out to be the case, it is probably time to switch to another game, after decades playing D&D. Earthdawn is fun, and supported by Foundry.
But I'd rather things stay as they are, with both WoTC and other companies and individuals making content and expanding this incredibly rich and varied game. WoTC profits from the game being wildly popular, and the diversity and options we have are part of the reason why it is.
If WoTC wants people playing on their new VTT, make it fantastic. We will come try it. If it's great, we will stay. If they decide to try to kill the competition, and the ideas they bring, then they are trying to destroy a big part of why we love the game.
Maybe don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, boys.
An organized vindictive boycott campaign targeting the absolute whole of WotC and Habro with protests and word of mouth to people to avoid all their brands?
well that sounds like something they can’t ignore.
Only their response to this matter and confirming, denying, and unveiling what they will be actually doing for 5.5/6e can change this outcome.
Though, its the weekend, are they all home watching this fire spread and dreading Monday? I maintain to be a fly on the wall during this has got to be amazing. Whomever’s brainchild this draft of 1.1 is at the offices of wotc or hasbro has got to be eating crow or is looking down the barrel of taking responsibility for our responses and figuring out how to throw someone else under the bus to cover their own ass.
Much like with what went down behind the scenes with a developer who was a major part of 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition before he publicly mishandled a community management task regarding accusations against a now stricken from the record previously thanked playtester of 5th, there is SO much that I want to know about what’s going on behind the scenes that none of the publicly facing members of the team can even begin to comment on. And may never speak on for NDA. There have been a handful of books that chronicled the internal and managerial events at TSR, will we and they live long enough to be able to comment on these events? Will Shelly M write a book in ten to twenty years chronicling the things current executives at Hasbro and WotC don’t want being public in the vein of Empire of Imagination?
How much do the executive and managerial class of the company hate or fear such content existing down the line? Good lord do I want them especially to be unhappy to have those decisions printed and published for the record.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
@gamephantomdm on twitter twitch.tv/gamephantomdm for me and some friends streaming D&D Wishing for the halcyon days of the WoTC D&D Board and hoping the DnDBeyond Forums can fill the hole in my heart left from the move to Gleemax and then dashing the lot of it for purely social media interaction.
All of your posts sound like you are taking almost perverse joy in imagining WotC writhing in pain over this. I don't know how they hurt you, but wow... that's a lot of spite over a leaked draft of something that isn't reality yet.
I mean, I’ve been a customer for roughly 20 years now; and the D&D Brand especially has a specific storied history of managerial incompetence, selfishness, and short sightedness screwing over creatives and almost killing the brand with TSR’s fall. I love the design team’s work, I adore the game itself and the people who make it, even if one of them is persona non grata for obvious reasons and has been shuffled out of office to be liaison for the dev of BG3. But, you don’t trust suits of any company unless they give you a reason to with a positive track record of not being… well , monsters. And the barest hint of an idea that one of them or someone in legal cooked up an idea to kill the OGL for older materials? Why, sure that warrants a want for suffering…but the drama and fast paced story unfolding pf their collective response to this, hero or villain to whomever each member of this tale are…thats compelling history. If this is only a week long blip and the ship is righted, it still happened and the tell all would have to be amazing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
@gamephantomdm on twitter twitch.tv/gamephantomdm for me and some friends streaming D&D Wishing for the halcyon days of the WoTC D&D Board and hoping the DnDBeyond Forums can fill the hole in my heart left from the move to Gleemax and then dashing the lot of it for purely social media interaction.
It is not by choice. It is a decision that is not a choice. If I support all TTRPGs under any license in some way with my content, D&D is just another piece of the pie. Here is the real hitch with the new OGL. Using the Fan Content Policy for 5e is great if your software and content is free, but this only works for D&D with the new OGL. So, what was once a more comfortable arrangement for 5e Third Party Creators is now a deterrent and it would be easier to just never use Third Party 5e because it is not covered in the Fan Content Policy.
I would have to, of course, agree to the new terms if I want to do Pathfinder 2 or OSRIC as well. So, the logical conclusion is if I must agree to some kind of terms, I will simply submit all my content to DMs Guild so I get all the perks from publishing with them as well. However, when it comes to Third Party 5e-based systems, it really isn't possible to use the Fan Content Policy and would require using the new OGL. I will not do the new OGL. I will do anything else but that. So, to accommodate them, it will also be published only through DMs Guild instead of by me personally.
All this really does is inconvenience me since it is all free, but using OneD&D is going to be fun. Despite what is going on with WotC, the features they have coming are going to be more than they let on. People are going to play it more than any other edition of D&D because WotC is going after your average, ordinary person that does not play TTRPGs but probably has played or does play video games. The minis might be really cool. I have guessed they might even be fully animated. So, if you want your rogue to pick a pocket and your die roll succeeds, your mini will really sneak over to another mini and do it.
This impresses me as how there will be a clear niche within the larger D&D crowd that was formed out of tabletop gamers of the past, alongside new gamers that will never leave the table. The gamer that WotC is after is the one that never plays without the VTT. This is where most of the monetization will occur. That also might be why they scaled back their real video games, to invest all that graphic design in cleverly animated minis. So, designing minis could be very profitable for content creators.
I also want to be able to have a physical mini that looks just like my virtual mini. While I can make a free mini, I cannot sell and ship a free miniature. Also, it would not be me, but me working with a company that can. This obviously begins bring in even more factors if you are constrained by the Fan Content Policy or OGL, and once again the most immediate possibility is to submit that content to DMs Guild as well.
The amazing graphics of the WotC VTT is actually worrying me a lot. Games with graphics like that are $60 a pop with tons of additional monetization so that you're paying closer to $120. To support the servers to run those graphics at scale I would not be surprised in the WotC VTT is a $15 per player per month subscription, and crashes all the time b/c WotC doesn't have the experience in this domain to accurately predict demand / use of the VTT. Not to mention 99% of users will be locked into purchasing premade map, minature etc... from WotC rather than drawing / uploading your own. I personally am not interested in playing combats against the same 120 monsters, on the same 20-30 maps over and over again for $15/month.
Yes the above is entirely speculation and maybe the VTT will be awesome, free, and have a full suite of creator tools and integrated 3rd party market place for an endless supply of free pregenerated maps. But given WotC's history with digital products and the complexity of the development it would require, and the current leaks, I see little reason to be hopeful.
It is not by choice. It is a decision that is not a choice. If I support all TTRPGs under any license in some way with my content, D&D is just another piece of the pie. Here is the real hitch with the new OGL. Using the Fan Content Policy for 5e is great if your software and content is free, but this only works for D&D with the new OGL. So, what was once a more comfortable arrangement for 5e Third Party Creators is now a deterrent and it would be easier to just never use Third Party 5e because it is not covered in the Fan Content Policy.
I would have to, of course, agree to the new terms if I want to do Pathfinder 2 or OSRIC as well. So, the logical conclusion is if I must agree to some kind of terms, I will simply submit all my content to DMs Guild so I get all the perks from publishing with them as well. However, when it comes to Third Party 5e-based systems, it really isn't possible to use the Fan Content Policy and would require using the new OGL. I will not do the new OGL. I will do anything else but that. So, to accommodate them, it will also be published only through DMs Guild instead of by me personally.
All this really does is inconvenience me since it is all free, but using OneD&D is going to be fun. Despite what is going on with WotC, the features they have coming are going to be more than they let on. People are going to play it more than any other edition of D&D because WotC is going after your average, ordinary person that does not play TTRPGs but probably has played or does play video games. The minis might be really cool. I have guessed they might even be fully animated. So, if you want your rogue to pick a pocket and your die roll succeeds, your mini will really sneak over to another mini and do it.
This impresses me as how there will be a clear niche within the larger D&D crowd that was formed out of tabletop gamers of the past, alongside new gamers that will never leave the table. The gamer that WotC is after is the one that never plays without the VTT. This is where most of the monetization will occur. That also might be why they scaled back their real video games, to invest all that graphic design in cleverly animated minis. So, designing minis could be very profitable for content creators.
I also want to be able to have a physical mini that looks just like my virtual mini. While I can make a free mini, I cannot sell and ship a free miniature. Also, it would not be me, but me working with a company that can. This obviously begins bring in even more factors if you are constrained by the Fan Content Policy or OGL, and once again the most immediate possibility is to submit that content to DMs Guild as well.
Please let there be NO animated minis to pick pockets etc. stuff takes too long as it is to have to wait for not only the player to decide what to do but when they do, roll and wait for the mini fo go through its animations. Like Thief 4 video game. The animations to pick up items was nifty the first 10 times, but took way too long for a sneak around and snatch stuff while avoiding guards kind of game. It really broke immersion to click a button and then be locked out of doing anything while an animation played out.
The amazing graphics of the WotC VTT is actually worrying me a lot. Games with graphics like that are $60 a pop with tons of additional monetization so that you're paying closer to $120. To support the servers to run those graphics at scale I would not be surprised in the WotC VTT is a $15 per player per month subscription, and crashes all the time b/c WotC doesn't have the experience in this domain to accurately predict demand / use of the VTT. Not to mention 99% of users will be locked into purchasing premade map, minature etc... from WotC rather than drawing / uploading your own. I personally am not interested in playing combats against the same 120 monsters, on the same 20-30 maps over and over again for $15/month.
Yes the above is entirely speculation and maybe the VTT will be awesome, free, and have a full suite of creator tools and integrated 3rd party market place for an endless supply of free pregenerated maps. But given WotC's history with digital products and the complexity of the development it would require, and the current leaks, I see little reason to be hopeful.
If you can't upload your own content it will be vastly inferior to other VTTs. I would be very surprised if it was not possible to upload your own content.
It is not by choice. It is a decision that is not a choice. If I support all TTRPGs under any license in some way with my content, D&D is just another piece of the pie. Here is the real hitch with the new OGL. Using the Fan Content Policy for 5e is great if your software and content is free, but this only works for D&D with the new OGL. So, what was once a more comfortable arrangement for 5e Third Party Creators is now a deterrent and it would be easier to just never use Third Party 5e because it is not covered in the Fan Content Policy.
I would have to, of course, agree to the new terms if I want to do Pathfinder 2 or OSRIC as well. So, the logical conclusion is if I must agree to some kind of terms, I will simply submit all my content to DMs Guild so I get all the perks from publishing with them as well. However, when it comes to Third Party 5e-based systems, it really isn't possible to use the Fan Content Policy and would require using the new OGL. I will not do the new OGL. I will do anything else but that. So, to accommodate them, it will also be published only through DMs Guild instead of by me personally.
All this really does is inconvenience me since it is all free, but using OneD&D is going to be fun. Despite what is going on with WotC, the features they have coming are going to be more than they let on. People are going to play it more than any other edition of D&D because WotC is going after your average, ordinary person that does not play TTRPGs but probably has played or does play video games. The minis might be really cool. I have guessed they might even be fully animated. So, if you want your rogue to pick a pocket and your die roll succeeds, your mini will really sneak over to another mini and do it.
This impresses me as how there will be a clear niche within the larger D&D crowd that was formed out of tabletop gamers of the past, alongside new gamers that will never leave the table. The gamer that WotC is after is the one that never plays without the VTT. This is where most of the monetization will occur. That also might be why they scaled back their real video games, to invest all that graphic design in cleverly animated minis. So, designing minis could be very profitable for content creators.
I also want to be able to have a physical mini that looks just like my virtual mini. While I can make a free mini, I cannot sell and ship a free miniature. Also, it would not be me, but me working with a company that can. This obviously begins bring in even more factors if you are constrained by the Fan Content Policy or OGL, and once again the most immediate possibility is to submit that content to DMs Guild as well.
Please let there be NO animated minis to pick pockets etc. stuff takes too long as it is to have to wait for not only the player to decide what to do but when they do, roll and wait for the mini fo go through its animations. Like Thief 4 video game. The animations to pick up items was nifty the first 10 times, but took way too long for a sneak around and snatch stuff while avoiding guards kind of game. It really broke immersion to click a button and then be locked out of doing anything while an animation played out.
Animation was a lesser problem of thief 4. Thief 4 changed the core lore fans loved, gave mechanics that sounded the same but created a less desirable gameplay loop, had claims of open story that really just imposed their desired experiences.
WotC doesn't have the experience in this domain to accurately predict demand / use of the VTT.
This isn’t a field I know a lot about, but don’t they have the data from buying dndbeyond? Seems like they should at least have a sense of busier times and general locations.
And it may not be as high a subscription, or it may, but I could also see it bundled with other purchases. Buy Witchlight, and for an extra few bucks, they thrown in the environments and NPC tokens you need to run it. Or if you homebrew, buy the bits a la cart. People spend a small fortune on dwarven forge, after all. And a good $30 bucks for a single PC on hero forge. Seems like there’s got to be a similar market of people who’d buy stuff for online play.
WotC doesn't have the experience in this domain to accurately predict demand / use of the VTT.
This isn’t a field I know a lot about, but don’t they have the data from buying dndbeyond? Seems like they should at least have a sense of busier times and general locations.
And it may not be as high a subscription, or it may, but I could also see it bundled with other purchases. Buy Witchlight, and for an extra few bucks, they thrown in the environments and NPC tokens you need to run it. Or if you homebrew, buy the bits a la cart. People spend a small fortune on dwarven forge, after all. And a good $30 bucks for a single PC on hero forge. Seems like there’s got to be a similar market of people who’d buy stuff for online play.
DnDBeyond is not a VTT, some people use DnDBeyond with a VTT, some use it for in person games, and some people use VTTs without DnDBeyond. A DnDBeyond subscription is already $5/month/DM and the resources needed to support & run DnDBeyond are tiny because they are only hosting text documents and a handful of interactive scripts. A VTT has to supply bandwidth for hundreds - thousands of people streaming video & audio simultaneously plus running interactive images (maps), animations (dice rolling) and for the WotC one storing custom 3D models and generate animations on the fly -> i.e. probably running a commercial game engine for each game session. DnDBeyond's VTT is closer to a MMO video game than current VTTs, hence why I suspect a subscription cost closer to a MMO video game (e.g. Elder Scrolls Online = $15/month/player, Wow = $13/month/player).
There will definitely be people who buy in to the DnDBeyond VTT, and some whales who spend a small fortune on it (the same folks who have hundreds of miniatures). But personally, I'm not spending that much, and it seems like Hasboro is going to try to crush competing VTTs through their "OGL" since they know they will not be able to compete with them on price or generalizability.
All of your posts sound like you are taking almost perverse joy in imagining WotC writhing in pain over this. I don't know how they hurt you, but wow... that's a lot of spite over a leaked draft of something that isn't reality yet.
If hypothetically it did turn out to be 100% legit, what would you think of that?
It depends on what you mean. I'll try to be just completely honest about my feelings. Just to share what's on my mind since you asked. First, I'll just say that I'm personally no fan of corporations or capitalism in general. I think the whole system stinks. Always trying to get more profit for shareholders every quarter. Short term goals over long term success. All the laws concerning IP and ownership of ideas. It's all pretty crappy. I work in a corporate environment so I see how it works first hand. It's gross, and exhausting, and I think it does more harm than good.
But because I also see it, I do understand another side of it. I know how many people in those environments have good hearts and try to make things better on the inside. I know how much employees push back against the upper management decisions. And I know that, even though the system is rotten, companies have an obligation to work within that system or they collapse.
You have to protect IP or you lose it, that's just how the laws work. You have to show profit to shareholders or you lose you company and face legal consequences. It's a nasty complex web of ropes to walk.
I think WotC has done a lot of good things for the hobby. 5e is the best version of the game I've played. The OGL was revolutionary. I don't think it was done out of complete benevolence, but it has continued in part from the mutual success of everyone. Some 3rd party creators have made a healthy profit in a way they could not have in any other creative space. That was worth something. It also is reasonable to assume it wouldn't last forever. WotC has also made great strides for inclusiveness that I applaud them for. Some of this was probably just good business, but a lot was also from good hearted people on the creative teams. And whatever the initial reason for it, the end result is a better and more welcoming game for all of us.
I also know how corporate lawyers and contracts work as a process. I'm not a lawyer and don't claim to be. But I know how many drafts we run though for the smallest changes in a contract. And this OGL 1.1 is no small change. So I expect there to be a lot of really crappy drafts out there floating around. They are inevitable. If the worst one leaked out, it would look terrible. But it doesn't mean it's even close to the final draft. I also know that you can't interpret a license based on a glimpse of one part of it. And a lot of people wouldn't understand even the whole thing. So even if I trust the source reporting on it, that doesn't mean the legal interpretation is correct.
There are a few scenarios possible, for me to answer your question -
1) The document is fake. Someone made it up for some reason. An axe to grind, corporate warfare, or just wanting WotC to make a statement earlier than they planned. In that case, everyone is overreacting and punishing WotC and it's employees based on complete fiction. They are letting conspiracy theories and panic win. This seems unlikely, and WotC can take it, but it is one possibility.
2) The document is real, but it was a draft and the final product won't look anything like it. That's also possible. In which case everyone would have probably been better off waiting a few more weeks before canceling everything and deleting their accounts. At least they wouldn't have to rebuild it all later.
3) The document is real, and close to the final product. But the legal interpretations of it are wrong. That too is possible. I've pointed out the parts I question in other threads. And the same feelings are there as number 2 above.
4) The draft is real. The leak is legitimate. The final version comes out just like it. Every interpretation of it is correct, and it's just as bad as it sounds. In that case, WotC made a huge mistake. Everyone should very much react as they see fit. 3rd party creators should probably suspend or rework projects. No one should sign the new license. Everyone that wants to do so can boycott DnD and find other games. I'd likely join them. DnD will lose a large part of its playerbase and all of its good will. Capitalism got them into this mess, and it will cost them too. What it can't do is save them.
There is also the chance that none of it is real, but it is a wake up call to everyone who has been using the OGL for so long. One that tells them maybe it wasn't the best business model to depend on. That just because it didn't happen this time, doesn't mean it won't in the future. If I was one of those creators, I would probably see it that way. I think it's a good idea to make your own set of rules. Many already are. Hopefully they find success with it. Maybe they make their own version of an OGL. And hopefully 20 years from now, they don't just turn into the next WotC for the same reasons.
It's been a free ride for a long time, and people got used to it. I have a lot of sympathy for them. WotC made it seem like this day could never come. I don't blame the creators for believing them. I don't blame them for being concerned about their own business right now. I would be too. I sincerely hope they all come out of this okay, and continue to find a way to make a living doing what they love for the RPG community as a whole. They have been an amazing gift to all of our games.
But I also have sympathy for the hundreds of employees at WotC that never wanted this. Crap rolls downhill in a corporation. Some suit gets a bad idea and everyone below them has to either make it happen, or find a new job. Even the lawyers write what they are told. No matter which scenario turns out to be correct, I sympathize for the people at the lower rungs who are the ones that are going to be forced to work overtime right now trying to clean up their mess. They are the ones probably working right now on a Sunday while the big bosses went back to their nice lake homes at 5pm Friday to drink cocktails. But hey, maybe there's even a chance that the boss didn't know how bad this was and didn't mean it to go so wrong either. They are beholden to the shareholders too. I don't know their lives or their hearts.
So no matter what happens, at no point am I going to dream up scenarios where I hope another human suffers this week for it. I know a lot of them already are suffering. Both 3rd party creators and WotC employees. I don't wish pain on anyone. That's just my personal outlook on life.
If WotC really screwed up this bad, we will know it eventually. At some point they will have to release a new license, or fold and give it up. At that point they will have to live with the decision. I'll probably go find another game if it's that bad. So will many others. I'm already looking. And I'm putting all my own ideas for later creations on hold for now. But I'm also continuing to playtest 1DnD just in case it's all a bad rumor. Maybe not as strongly as I was last week. But if it's all wrong, I do want the next edition of DnD to be good. All of the people who work hard to make DnD better still need a job too. And I would love to keep playing the game that I've enjoyed for 40 years.
I just figure it will all work out one way or the other. And sooner rather than later. We'll have an answer to our question in the coming weeks or even days. I just hope that everyone suffers as little as possible for it. I hope 3rd party creators see an open door to new opportunities that they have more control over. I hope the average gamers get to keep playing something they love, no matter what it is, and don't waste their money. And I hope the WotC employees can get a night off, continue to create things they love, and find continued employment they can be proud of, wherever that may be.
Thank you for answering. I did read the whole thing.
And thank you for this response. I know I can get very wordy because it's always hard for me to express all of my thoughts well. I really do appreciate the acknowledgement. :)
@gamephantomdm on twitter twitch.tv/gamephantomdm for me and some friends streaming D&D Wishing for the halcyon days of the WoTC D&D Board and hoping the DnDBeyond Forums can fill the hole in my heart left from the move to Gleemax and then dashing the lot of it for purely social media interaction.
I'm sorry for my earlier post. It wasn't my place to comment like that. Emotions are running high all around. I just hope that everyone comes through this better off in the long run. And you're right, there is probably a very interesting story playing out behind the scenes.
All of your posts sound like you are taking almost perverse joy in imagining WotC writhing in pain over this. I don't know how they hurt you, but wow... that's a lot of spite over a leaked draft of something that isn't reality yet.
If hypothetically it did turn out to be 100% legit, what would you think of that?
It depends on what you mean. I'll try to be just completely honest about my feelings. Just to share what's on my mind since you asked. First, I'll just say that I'm personally no fan of corporations or capitalism in general. I think the whole system stinks. Always trying to get more profit for shareholders every quarter. Short term goals over long term success. All the laws concerning IP and ownership of ideas. It's all pretty crappy. I work in a corporate environment so I see how it works first hand. It's gross, and exhausting, and I think it does more harm than good.
But because I also see it, I do understand another side of it. I know how many people in those environments have good hearts and try to make things better on the inside. I know how much employees push back against the upper management decisions. And I know that, even though the system is rotten, companies have an obligation to work within that system or they collapse.
You have to protect IP or you lose it, that's just how the laws work. You have to show profit to shareholders or you lose you company and face legal consequences. It's a nasty complex web of ropes to walk.
I think WotC has done a lot of good things for the hobby. 5e is the best version of the game I've played. The OGL was revolutionary. I don't think it was done out of complete benevolence, but it has continued in part from the mutual success of everyone. Some 3rd party creators have made a healthy profit in a way they could not have in any other creative space. That was worth something. It also is reasonable to assume it wouldn't last forever. WotC has also made great strides for inclusiveness that I applaud them for. Some of this was probably just good business, but a lot was also from good hearted people on the creative teams. And whatever the initial reason for it, the end result is a better and more welcoming game for all of us.
I also know how corporate lawyers and contracts work as a process. I'm not a lawyer and don't claim to be. But I know how many drafts we run though for the smallest changes in a contract. And this OGL 1.1 is no small change. So I expect there to be a lot of really crappy drafts out there floating around. They are inevitable. If the worst one leaked out, it would look terrible. But it doesn't mean it's even close to the final draft. I also know that you can't interpret a license based on a glimpse of one part of it. And a lot of people wouldn't understand even the whole thing. So even if I trust the source reporting on it, that doesn't mean the legal interpretation is correct.
There are a few scenarios possible, for me to answer your question -
1) The document is fake. Someone made it up for some reason. An axe to grind, corporate warfare, or just wanting WotC to make a statement earlier than they planned. In that case, everyone is overreacting and punishing WotC and it's employees based on complete fiction. They are letting conspiracy theories and panic win. This seems unlikely, and WotC can take it, but it is one possibility.
2) The document is real, but it was a draft and the final product won't look anything like it. That's also possible. In which case everyone would have probably been better off waiting a few more weeks before canceling everything and deleting their accounts. At least they wouldn't have to rebuild it all later.
3) The document is real, and close to the final product. But the legal interpretations of it are wrong. That too is possible. I've pointed out the parts I question in other threads. And the same feelings are there as number 2 above.
4) The draft is real. The leak is legitimate. The final version comes out just like it. Every interpretation of it is correct, and it's just as bad as it sounds. In that case, WotC made a huge mistake. Everyone should very much react as they see fit. 3rd party creators should probably suspend or rework projects. No one should sign the new license. Everyone that wants to do so can boycott DnD and find other games. I'd likely join them. DnD will lose a large part of its playerbase and all of its good will. Capitalism got them into this mess, and it will cost them too. What it can't do is save them.
There is also the chance that none of it is real, but it is a wake up call to everyone who has been using the OGL for so long. One that tells them maybe it wasn't the best business model to depend on. That just because it didn't happen this time, doesn't mean it won't in the future. If I was one of those creators, I would probably see it that way. I think it's a good idea to make your own set of rules. Many already are. Hopefully they find success with it. Maybe they make their own version of an OGL. And hopefully 20 years from now, they don't just turn into the next WotC for the same reasons.
It's been a free ride for a long time, and people got used to it. I have a lot of sympathy for them. WotC made it seem like this day could never come. I don't blame the creators for believing them. I don't blame them for being concerned about their own business right now. I would be too. I sincerely hope they all come out of this okay, and continue to find a way to make a living doing what they love for the RPG community as a whole. They have been an amazing gift to all of our games.
But I also have sympathy for the hundreds of employees at WotC that never wanted this. Crap rolls downhill in a corporation. Some suit gets a bad idea and everyone below them has to either make it happen, or find a new job. Even the lawyers write what they are told. No matter which scenario turns out to be correct, I sympathize for the people at the lower rungs who are the ones that are going to be forced to work overtime right now trying to clean up their mess. They are the ones probably working right now on a Sunday while the big bosses went back to their nice lake homes at 5pm Friday to drink cocktails. But hey, maybe there's even a chance that the boss didn't know how bad this was and didn't mean it to go so wrong either. They are beholden to the shareholders too. I don't know their lives or their hearts.
So no matter what happens, at no point am I going to dream up scenarios where I hope another human suffers this week for it. I know a lot of them already are suffering. Both 3rd party creators and WotC employees. I don't wish pain on anyone. That's just my personal outlook on life.
If WotC really screwed up this bad, we will know it eventually. At some point they will have to release a new license, or fold and give it up. At that point they will have to live with the decision. I'll probably go find another game if it's that bad. So will many others. I'm already looking. And I'm putting all my own ideas for later creations on hold for now. But I'm also continuing to playtest 1DnD just in case it's all a bad rumor. Maybe not as strongly as I was last week. But if it's all wrong, I do want the next edition of DnD to be good. All of the people who work hard to make DnD better still need a job too. And I would love to keep playing the game that I've enjoyed for 40 years.
I just figure it will all work out one way or the other. And sooner rather than later. We'll have an answer to our question in the coming weeks or even days. I just hope that everyone suffers as little as possible for it. I hope 3rd party creators see an open door to new opportunities that they have more control over. I hope the average gamers get to keep playing something they love, no matter what it is, and don't waste their money. And I hope the WotC employees can get a night off, continue to create things they love, and find continued employment they can be proud of, wherever that may be.
Inspiring Leader 4th-Level Feat Prerequisite: Wisdom or Charisma 13+ Repeatable: No You are adept at encouraging others, granting you the following benefits: Ability Score Increase. Increase your Wisdom or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20. Encouraging Performance. At the end of a Short Rest or a Long Rest, you can give an inspiring performance: a speech, a song, or a forum post. When you do so, choose up to six friendly creatures (which can include yourself) within 3 clicks of you who witness the post. The chosen creatures each gain Temporary Hit Points equal to 2d4 + your Proficiency Bonus.
If the leak was completely false, then I would have expected WotC to be suing for slander considering how bad it has hit their image and reputation.
Libel, not slander, and the law doesn't usually care. Most jurisdictions just call it all defamation.
And so long as the news outlets believed it were true, they're untouchable.
Not exactly, the news outlets had to do their due diligence - a news outlet can't receive and anonymous tip of any old nonsense and then publish it as fact, they have to be able to prove that they reasonably believed it was true. The main exception used for fake news is the "opinion" exemption - you can write any old rubbish as "your opinion" on a topic but if you say "we saw a leaked document from someone close to WotC, then that must be provably true in court." So we can infer whomever passed the leaked document to them plausibly would have had access to the real thing, and the leaked document is sufficiently similar to a real legal document that a company would use.
PS thanks for clarification about libel/slander/defamation I always mix those three up.
This OGL 1.1 is really a GSL n a blantant money grab designed to kill third party content. If it sticks I will be done with D&D. Granted loosing me means nothing for Wizards but I will be happy playing Forged in the Dark, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Genesys n other games more so than supporting this hostile to creators version of D&D.
Our group plays 5e on Foundry, and we still buy physical books as well as D&D Beyond books and subscription. The leaked OGL 1.1 looks like it's attacking VTTs. If that turns out to be the case, it is probably time to switch to another game, after decades playing D&D. Earthdawn is fun, and supported by Foundry.
But I'd rather things stay as they are, with both WoTC and other companies and individuals making content and expanding this incredibly rich and varied game. WoTC profits from the game being wildly popular, and the diversity and options we have are part of the reason why it is.
If WoTC wants people playing on their new VTT, make it fantastic. We will come try it. If it's great, we will stay. If they decide to try to kill the competition, and the ideas they bring, then they are trying to destroy a big part of why we love the game.
Maybe don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, boys.
One Person: Nothing.
An organized vindictive boycott campaign targeting the absolute whole of WotC and Habro with protests and word of mouth to people to avoid all their brands?
well that sounds like something they can’t ignore.
Only their response to this matter and confirming, denying, and unveiling what they will be actually doing for 5.5/6e can change this outcome.
Though, its the weekend, are they all home watching this fire spread and dreading Monday? I maintain to be a fly on the wall during this has got to be amazing. Whomever’s brainchild this draft of 1.1 is at the offices of wotc or hasbro has got to be eating crow or is looking down the barrel of taking responsibility for our responses and figuring out how to throw someone else under the bus to cover their own ass.
Much like with what went down behind the scenes with a developer who was a major part of 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition before he publicly mishandled a community management task regarding accusations against a now stricken from the record previously thanked playtester of 5th, there is SO much that I want to know about what’s going on behind the scenes that none of the publicly facing members of the team can even begin to comment on. And may never speak on for NDA. There have been a handful of books that chronicled the internal and managerial events at TSR, will we and they live long enough to be able to comment on these events? Will Shelly M write a book in ten to twenty years chronicling the things current executives at Hasbro and WotC don’t want being public in the vein of Empire of Imagination?
How much do the executive and managerial class of the company hate or fear such content existing down the line? Good lord do I want them especially to be unhappy to have those decisions printed and published for the record.
@gamephantomdm on twitter
twitch.tv/gamephantomdm for me and some friends streaming D&D
Wishing for the halcyon days of the WoTC D&D Board and hoping the DnDBeyond Forums can fill the hole in my heart left from the move to Gleemax and then dashing the lot of it for purely social media interaction.
All of your posts sound like you are taking almost perverse joy in imagining WotC writhing in pain over this. I don't know how they hurt you, but wow... that's a lot of spite over a leaked draft of something that isn't reality yet.
I mean, I’ve been a customer for roughly 20 years now; and the D&D Brand especially has a specific storied history of managerial incompetence, selfishness, and short sightedness screwing over creatives and almost killing the brand with TSR’s fall. I love the design team’s work, I adore the game itself and the people who make it, even if one of them is persona non grata for obvious reasons and has been shuffled out of office to be liaison for the dev of BG3. But, you don’t trust suits of any company unless they give you a reason to with a positive track record of not being… well , monsters. And the barest hint of an idea that one of them or someone in legal cooked up an idea to kill the OGL for older materials? Why, sure that warrants a want for suffering…but the drama and fast paced story unfolding pf their collective response to this, hero or villain to whomever each member of this tale are…thats compelling history. If this is only a week long blip and the ship is righted, it still happened and the tell all would have to be amazing.
@gamephantomdm on twitter
twitch.tv/gamephantomdm for me and some friends streaming D&D
Wishing for the halcyon days of the WoTC D&D Board and hoping the DnDBeyond Forums can fill the hole in my heart left from the move to Gleemax and then dashing the lot of it for purely social media interaction.
It is not by choice. It is a decision that is not a choice. If I support all TTRPGs under any license in some way with my content, D&D is just another piece of the pie. Here is the real hitch with the new OGL. Using the Fan Content Policy for 5e is great if your software and content is free, but this only works for D&D with the new OGL. So, what was once a more comfortable arrangement for 5e Third Party Creators is now a deterrent and it would be easier to just never use Third Party 5e because it is not covered in the Fan Content Policy.
I would have to, of course, agree to the new terms if I want to do Pathfinder 2 or OSRIC as well. So, the logical conclusion is if I must agree to some kind of terms, I will simply submit all my content to DMs Guild so I get all the perks from publishing with them as well. However, when it comes to Third Party 5e-based systems, it really isn't possible to use the Fan Content Policy and would require using the new OGL. I will not do the new OGL. I will do anything else but that. So, to accommodate them, it will also be published only through DMs Guild instead of by me personally.
All this really does is inconvenience me since it is all free, but using OneD&D is going to be fun. Despite what is going on with WotC, the features they have coming are going to be more than they let on. People are going to play it more than any other edition of D&D because WotC is going after your average, ordinary person that does not play TTRPGs but probably has played or does play video games. The minis might be really cool. I have guessed they might even be fully animated. So, if you want your rogue to pick a pocket and your die roll succeeds, your mini will really sneak over to another mini and do it.
This impresses me as how there will be a clear niche within the larger D&D crowd that was formed out of tabletop gamers of the past, alongside new gamers that will never leave the table. The gamer that WotC is after is the one that never plays without the VTT. This is where most of the monetization will occur. That also might be why they scaled back their real video games, to invest all that graphic design in cleverly animated minis. So, designing minis could be very profitable for content creators.
I also want to be able to have a physical mini that looks just like my virtual mini. While I can make a free mini, I cannot sell and ship a free miniature. Also, it would not be me, but me working with a company that can. This obviously begins bring in even more factors if you are constrained by the Fan Content Policy or OGL, and once again the most immediate possibility is to submit that content to DMs Guild as well.
The amazing graphics of the WotC VTT is actually worrying me a lot. Games with graphics like that are $60 a pop with tons of additional monetization so that you're paying closer to $120. To support the servers to run those graphics at scale I would not be surprised in the WotC VTT is a $15 per player per month subscription, and crashes all the time b/c WotC doesn't have the experience in this domain to accurately predict demand / use of the VTT. Not to mention 99% of users will be locked into purchasing premade map, minature etc... from WotC rather than drawing / uploading your own. I personally am not interested in playing combats against the same 120 monsters, on the same 20-30 maps over and over again for $15/month.
Yes the above is entirely speculation and maybe the VTT will be awesome, free, and have a full suite of creator tools and integrated 3rd party market place for an endless supply of free pregenerated maps. But given WotC's history with digital products and the complexity of the development it would require, and the current leaks, I see little reason to be hopeful.
Please let there be NO animated minis to pick pockets etc. stuff takes too long as it is to have to wait for not only the player to decide what to do but when they do, roll and wait for the mini fo go through its animations. Like Thief 4 video game. The animations to pick up items was nifty the first 10 times, but took way too long for a sneak around and snatch stuff while avoiding guards kind of game. It really broke immersion to click a button and then be locked out of doing anything while an animation played out.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
If you can't upload your own content it will be vastly inferior to other VTTs. I would be very surprised if it was not possible to upload your own content.
Animation was a lesser problem of thief 4. Thief 4 changed the core lore fans loved, gave mechanics that sounded the same but created a less desirable gameplay loop, had claims of open story that really just imposed their desired experiences.
But wotc would never do that with 1 dnd. Right?
This isn’t a field I know a lot about, but don’t they have the data from buying dndbeyond? Seems like they should at least have a sense of busier times and general locations.
And it may not be as high a subscription, or it may, but I could also see it bundled with other purchases. Buy Witchlight, and for an extra few bucks, they thrown in the environments and NPC tokens you need to run it.
Or if you homebrew, buy the bits a la cart. People spend a small fortune on dwarven forge, after all. And a good $30 bucks for a single PC on hero forge. Seems like there’s got to be a similar market of people who’d buy stuff for online play.
DnDBeyond is not a VTT, some people use DnDBeyond with a VTT, some use it for in person games, and some people use VTTs without DnDBeyond. A DnDBeyond subscription is already $5/month/DM and the resources needed to support & run DnDBeyond are tiny because they are only hosting text documents and a handful of interactive scripts. A VTT has to supply bandwidth for hundreds - thousands of people streaming video & audio simultaneously plus running interactive images (maps), animations (dice rolling) and for the WotC one storing custom 3D models and generate animations on the fly -> i.e. probably running a commercial game engine for each game session. DnDBeyond's VTT is closer to a MMO video game than current VTTs, hence why I suspect a subscription cost closer to a MMO video game (e.g. Elder Scrolls Online = $15/month/player, Wow = $13/month/player).
There will definitely be people who buy in to the DnDBeyond VTT, and some whales who spend a small fortune on it (the same folks who have hundreds of miniatures). But personally, I'm not spending that much, and it seems like Hasboro is going to try to crush competing VTTs through their "OGL" since they know they will not be able to compete with them on price or generalizability.
It depends on what you mean. I'll try to be just completely honest about my feelings. Just to share what's on my mind since you asked. First, I'll just say that I'm personally no fan of corporations or capitalism in general. I think the whole system stinks. Always trying to get more profit for shareholders every quarter. Short term goals over long term success. All the laws concerning IP and ownership of ideas. It's all pretty crappy. I work in a corporate environment so I see how it works first hand. It's gross, and exhausting, and I think it does more harm than good.
But because I also see it, I do understand another side of it. I know how many people in those environments have good hearts and try to make things better on the inside. I know how much employees push back against the upper management decisions. And I know that, even though the system is rotten, companies have an obligation to work within that system or they collapse.
You have to protect IP or you lose it, that's just how the laws work. You have to show profit to shareholders or you lose you company and face legal consequences. It's a nasty complex web of ropes to walk.
I think WotC has done a lot of good things for the hobby. 5e is the best version of the game I've played. The OGL was revolutionary. I don't think it was done out of complete benevolence, but it has continued in part from the mutual success of everyone. Some 3rd party creators have made a healthy profit in a way they could not have in any other creative space. That was worth something. It also is reasonable to assume it wouldn't last forever. WotC has also made great strides for inclusiveness that I applaud them for. Some of this was probably just good business, but a lot was also from good hearted people on the creative teams. And whatever the initial reason for it, the end result is a better and more welcoming game for all of us.
I also know how corporate lawyers and contracts work as a process. I'm not a lawyer and don't claim to be. But I know how many drafts we run though for the smallest changes in a contract. And this OGL 1.1 is no small change. So I expect there to be a lot of really crappy drafts out there floating around. They are inevitable. If the worst one leaked out, it would look terrible. But it doesn't mean it's even close to the final draft. I also know that you can't interpret a license based on a glimpse of one part of it. And a lot of people wouldn't understand even the whole thing. So even if I trust the source reporting on it, that doesn't mean the legal interpretation is correct.
There are a few scenarios possible, for me to answer your question -
1) The document is fake. Someone made it up for some reason. An axe to grind, corporate warfare, or just wanting WotC to make a statement earlier than they planned. In that case, everyone is overreacting and punishing WotC and it's employees based on complete fiction. They are letting conspiracy theories and panic win. This seems unlikely, and WotC can take it, but it is one possibility.
2) The document is real, but it was a draft and the final product won't look anything like it. That's also possible. In which case everyone would have probably been better off waiting a few more weeks before canceling everything and deleting their accounts. At least they wouldn't have to rebuild it all later.
3) The document is real, and close to the final product. But the legal interpretations of it are wrong. That too is possible. I've pointed out the parts I question in other threads. And the same feelings are there as number 2 above.
4) The draft is real. The leak is legitimate. The final version comes out just like it. Every interpretation of it is correct, and it's just as bad as it sounds. In that case, WotC made a huge mistake. Everyone should very much react as they see fit. 3rd party creators should probably suspend or rework projects. No one should sign the new license. Everyone that wants to do so can boycott DnD and find other games. I'd likely join them. DnD will lose a large part of its playerbase and all of its good will. Capitalism got them into this mess, and it will cost them too. What it can't do is save them.
There is also the chance that none of it is real, but it is a wake up call to everyone who has been using the OGL for so long. One that tells them maybe it wasn't the best business model to depend on. That just because it didn't happen this time, doesn't mean it won't in the future. If I was one of those creators, I would probably see it that way. I think it's a good idea to make your own set of rules. Many already are. Hopefully they find success with it. Maybe they make their own version of an OGL. And hopefully 20 years from now, they don't just turn into the next WotC for the same reasons.
It's been a free ride for a long time, and people got used to it. I have a lot of sympathy for them. WotC made it seem like this day could never come. I don't blame the creators for believing them. I don't blame them for being concerned about their own business right now. I would be too. I sincerely hope they all come out of this okay, and continue to find a way to make a living doing what they love for the RPG community as a whole. They have been an amazing gift to all of our games.
But I also have sympathy for the hundreds of employees at WotC that never wanted this. Crap rolls downhill in a corporation. Some suit gets a bad idea and everyone below them has to either make it happen, or find a new job. Even the lawyers write what they are told. No matter which scenario turns out to be correct, I sympathize for the people at the lower rungs who are the ones that are going to be forced to work overtime right now trying to clean up their mess. They are the ones probably working right now on a Sunday while the big bosses went back to their nice lake homes at 5pm Friday to drink cocktails. But hey, maybe there's even a chance that the boss didn't know how bad this was and didn't mean it to go so wrong either. They are beholden to the shareholders too. I don't know their lives or their hearts.
So no matter what happens, at no point am I going to dream up scenarios where I hope another human suffers this week for it. I know a lot of them already are suffering. Both 3rd party creators and WotC employees. I don't wish pain on anyone. That's just my personal outlook on life.
If WotC really screwed up this bad, we will know it eventually. At some point they will have to release a new license, or fold and give it up. At that point they will have to live with the decision. I'll probably go find another game if it's that bad. So will many others. I'm already looking. And I'm putting all my own ideas for later creations on hold for now. But I'm also continuing to playtest 1DnD just in case it's all a bad rumor. Maybe not as strongly as I was last week. But if it's all wrong, I do want the next edition of DnD to be good. All of the people who work hard to make DnD better still need a job too. And I would love to keep playing the game that I've enjoyed for 40 years.
I just figure it will all work out one way or the other. And sooner rather than later. We'll have an answer to our question in the coming weeks or even days. I just hope that everyone suffers as little as possible for it. I hope 3rd party creators see an open door to new opportunities that they have more control over. I hope the average gamers get to keep playing something they love, no matter what it is, and don't waste their money. And I hope the WotC employees can get a night off, continue to create things they love, and find continued employment they can be proud of, wherever that may be.
And thank you for this response. I know I can get very wordy because it's always hard for me to express all of my thoughts well. I really do appreciate the acknowledgement. :)
Stegodorkus; you’re a good noodle.
@gamephantomdm on twitter
twitch.tv/gamephantomdm for me and some friends streaming D&D
Wishing for the halcyon days of the WoTC D&D Board and hoping the DnDBeyond Forums can fill the hole in my heart left from the move to Gleemax and then dashing the lot of it for purely social media interaction.
That's a fun way to say a nice thing. :)
I'm sorry for my earlier post. It wasn't my place to comment like that. Emotions are running high all around. I just hope that everyone comes through this better off in the long run. And you're right, there is probably a very interesting story playing out behind the scenes.
I hope you have a nice evening and day tomorrow!
Inspiring Leader
4th-Level Feat
Prerequisite: Wisdom or Charisma 13+
Repeatable: No
You are adept at encouraging others, granting
you the following benefits:
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Wisdom
or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Encouraging Performance. At the end of a
Short Rest or a Long Rest, you can give an
inspiring performance: a speech, a song, or a
forum post. When you do so, choose up to six
friendly creatures (which can include yourself)
within 3 clicks of you who witness the
post. The chosen creatures each gain
Temporary Hit Points equal to 2d4 + your
Proficiency Bonus.
If the leak was completely false, then I would have expected WotC to be suing for slander considering how bad it has hit their image and reputation.
Libel, not slander, and the law doesn't usually care. Most jurisdictions just call it all defamation.
And so long as the news outlets believed it were true, they're untouchable.
Not exactly, the news outlets had to do their due diligence - a news outlet can't receive and anonymous tip of any old nonsense and then publish it as fact, they have to be able to prove that they reasonably believed it was true. The main exception used for fake news is the "opinion" exemption - you can write any old rubbish as "your opinion" on a topic but if you say "we saw a leaked document from someone close to WotC, then that must be provably true in court." So we can infer whomever passed the leaked document to them plausibly would have had access to the real thing, and the leaked document is sufficiently similar to a real legal document that a company would use.
PS thanks for clarification about libel/slander/defamation I always mix those three up.