So, I just finished the survey and I actually had some thoughts while doing it. The Moon Druid isn’t bad if they actually fix the wildshape in the ways that most people seem to be suggesting. What I think would be interesting, though is the big ‘elemental’ question. People want to transform into an elemental from what I understand. This kind of does that but to add to it and what I put in my survey was that like the animal abilities being part of the base Druid’s wildshape, maybe the Moon Druid could get elemental abilities making them more like an elemental at higher levels. I’m thinking bird made of pure fire or wind that can slip through small holes and stuff like that. I don’t remember any other elemental abilities at the moment, though but I think this idea would be amazing. Thoughts?
Since I'm currently playing a high level Moon druid and enjoying the Elemental forms at lot here are their abilities: 1) damage resistances & immunities - resist b/s/p and immune to 1-2 related to that elemental form 2) unique movement options - super fast flight, earth glide, super swimming 3) condition immunities: poisoned, grappled, restrained 4) special abilities - tremorsense, whirlwind, fire aura, Whelm.
These basically add up to: Earth Elemental = sneaky & tanky Water Elemental = swimmer & grappler/restrained Air Elemental = flying & forced movement of enemies Fire Elemental = damage focused with multi-target potential
One D&D's elemental flavouring is... lackluster at best. You get 1 damage immunity and a bit of extra damage that your enemy is probably resistant or immune to.
e.g. as an Earth Elemental I can sneakily glide through the ground and up to the top of a cliff, find any enemy sentries up there with tremorsense then burst out of the ground, grab them and jump off the cliff with them to kill them before they can raise the alarm. As a One D&D elemental form... I can look like a bear that's on fire and deal a little bit extra damage.
Thank you. I like the abilities but I believe they are trying to away with immunities. Yeah, the OneD&D Druid is kind of boring right now, that’s why I’m hoping for the abilities to do cool stuff, and the elemental abilities would be an excellent addition to the class and really make them stand out. Just think if you had a stone bear that was burrowing and using tremor sense then jumping off the cliff with them. That’s what I’m suggesting, I want them to include elemental abilities for the Moon Druid to do things no one else can do.
Thank you. I like the abilities but I believe they are trying to away with immunities.
Have you looked at the paladin?
I did. I actually like most of the changes to the paladin. I saw they got rid of any immunities they had.
Aura of Courage (immunity to frightened), Aura of Devotion (immunity to charmed).
Welp, I missed that. Wow, that makes them powerful
Paladin auras are... a problem. They tend to trivialize most save-related problems, and the ones they don't trivialize are likely to be TPK territory if you don't have a paladin.
Thank you. I like the abilities but I believe they are trying to away with immunities.
Have you looked at the paladin?
I did. I actually like most of the changes to the paladin. I saw they got rid of any immunities they had.
Aura of Courage (immunity to frightened), Aura of Devotion (immunity to charmed).
Welp, I missed that. Wow, that makes them powerful
Paladin auras are... a problem. They tend to trivialize most save-related problems, and the ones they don't trivialize are likely to be TPK territory if you don't have a paladin.
I think that’s why they are doing the priest group. The setup was that every party should have a one member of each group to be strong and avoid problems.
I think that’s why they are doing the priest group. The setup was that every party should have a one member of each group to be strong and avoid problems.
If that were the case every class in the priest group would have a means of massively boosting saves.
Paladin auras are... a problem. They tend to trivialize most save-related problems, and the ones they don't trivialize are likely to be TPK territory if you don't have a paladin.
While I tend to agree, to be fair a Paladin's aura is only 10 feet for the majority of their levels (so the entirety of most campaigns) which does limit the effectiveness quite a bit; if you all crowd around the paladin to counteract a dragon's frightful presence, then you're just making yourselves a juicy target for its breath weapon.
Heroism by comparison doesn't have a range limit once it's cast, and gives temporary hit-points which is nice, though it is best when you know something frightening is coming up (same as the even better heroes' feast if you get to that level, and that doesn't require concentration).
So it's not like the auras are without their drawbacks and there aren't alternatives; the auras make the paladin immune for sure, but they have to choose who they extend that immunity to most of the time.
That said, with the change to Divine Smite working on ranged attacks it makes the auras a lot easier to use (if you've got a ranged weapon you don't have to balance the aura's position against being able to attack), and why I don't really like that change (I changed my mind a few times but I marked it down in the survey). I think that the juggling act of wanting to be in melee but also wanting to position your aura to maximise its effect is part of the balance of the class, and the strategy in how it plays, it also leaves more room for spells to still be useful on a Paladin even if the aura has a similar effect, so you can use both (e.g- heroism on ranged allies, aura for your fellow front-liners).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
So, I just finished the survey and I actually had some thoughts while doing it. The Moon Druid isn’t bad if they actually fix the wildshape in the ways that most people seem to be suggesting. What I think would be interesting, though is the big ‘elemental’ question. People want to transform into an elemental from what I understand. This kind of does that but to add to it and what I put in my survey was that like the animal abilities being part of the base Druid’s wildshape, maybe the Moon Druid could get elemental abilities making them more like an elemental at higher levels. I’m thinking bird made of pure fire or wind that can slip through small holes and stuff like that. I don’t remember any other elemental abilities at the moment, though but I think this idea would be amazing. Thoughts?
I agree the moon druid its self in reflection isnt too bad its the wild shape overall ability that makes it just awful but if that was fixed then moon druid would be more or less fine. im currently a level 16 moon druid in my game and love elemental form but i do get they are bit op esp when it comes to their conditional immunities it drives my dm crazy when i can just go nah not gonna roll my save coz im immune. still think it could do with bit more balance tweak as its a bit weak but that could be addressed in just fixing wild shape in general
Thank you. I like the abilities but I believe they are trying to away with immunities.
Have you looked at the paladin?
I did. I actually like most of the changes to the paladin. I saw they got rid of any immunities they had.
Aura of Courage (immunity to frightened), Aura of Devotion (immunity to charmed).
Welp, I missed that. Wow, that makes them powerful
Paladin auras are... a problem. They tend to trivialize most save-related problems, and the ones they don't trivialize are likely to be TPK territory if you don't have a paladin.
I think the save system is the problem. Fighters for example have no wisdom saves which means they most likely will fail those checks, and when they are reasonably strong a single spell will disable the fighter for the whole fight. Maybe the paladin aura is too good but right now it feels like a patch for a really crap save system.
Thank you. I like the abilities but I believe they are trying to away with immunities.
Have you looked at the paladin?
I did. I actually like most of the changes to the paladin. I saw they got rid of any immunities they had.
Aura of Courage (immunity to frightened), Aura of Devotion (immunity to charmed).
Welp, I missed that. Wow, that makes them powerful
Paladin auras are... a problem. They tend to trivialize most save-related problems, and the ones they don't trivialize are likely to be TPK territory if you don't have a paladin.
I think the save system is the problem. Fighters for example have no wisdom saves which means they most likely will fail those checks, and when they are reasonably strong a single spell will disable the fighter for the whole fight. Maybe the paladin aura is too good but right now it feels like a patch for a really crap save system.
I have to agree with Mydudesess. I don’t know a way to fix the system but unless you somehow manage to max out everything you’re probably going to suck at something and that’s okay because it gives the characters weaknesses and sort of a sense of realism
Thank you. I like the abilities but I believe they are trying to away with immunities.
Have you looked at the paladin?
I did. I actually like most of the changes to the paladin. I saw they got rid of any immunities they had.
Aura of Courage (immunity to frightened), Aura of Devotion (immunity to charmed).
Welp, I missed that. Wow, that makes them powerful
Paladin auras are... a problem. They tend to trivialize most save-related problems, and the ones they don't trivialize are likely to be TPK territory if you don't have a paladin.
I think the save system is the problem. Fighters for example have no wisdom saves which means they most likely will fail those checks, and when they are reasonably strong a single spell will disable the fighter for the whole fight. Maybe the paladin aura is too good but right now it feels like a patch for a really crap save system.
I don't know that the system is bad, it is just too focused on a couple of mental stats for saves that actually matter. They need more spells and effects that target things like strength and crush a character so heavily that they are unable to move or breathe. No casting while being crushed unless your strong fighter friends can break concentration on the caster. Things like that.
Thank you. I like the abilities but I believe they are trying to away with immunities.
Have you looked at the paladin?
I did. I actually like most of the changes to the paladin. I saw they got rid of any immunities they had.
Aura of Courage (immunity to frightened), Aura of Devotion (immunity to charmed).
Welp, I missed that. Wow, that makes them powerful
Paladin auras are... a problem. They tend to trivialize most save-related problems, and the ones they don't trivialize are likely to be TPK territory if you don't have a paladin.
I think the save system is the problem. Fighters for example have no wisdom saves which means they most likely will fail those checks, and when they are reasonably strong a single spell will disable the fighter for the whole fight. Maybe the paladin aura is too good but right now it feels like a patch for a really crap save system.
I don't know that the system is bad, it is just too focused on a couple of mental stats for saves that actually matter. They need more spells and effects that target things like strength and crush a character so heavily that they are unable to move or breathe. No casting while being crushed unless your strong fighter friends can break concentration on the caster. Things like that.
This I like since strength is such a overlooked stat
Thank you. I like the abilities but I believe they are trying to away with immunities.
Have you looked at the paladin?
I did. I actually like most of the changes to the paladin. I saw they got rid of any immunities they had.
Aura of Courage (immunity to frightened), Aura of Devotion (immunity to charmed).
Welp, I missed that. Wow, that makes them powerful
Paladin auras are... a problem. They tend to trivialize most save-related problems, and the ones they don't trivialize are likely to be TPK territory if you don't have a paladin.
I think the save system is the problem. Fighters for example have no wisdom saves which means they most likely will fail those checks, and when they are reasonably strong a single spell will disable the fighter for the whole fight. Maybe the paladin aura is too good but right now it feels like a patch for a really crap save system.
I don't know that the system is bad, it is just too focused on a couple of mental stats for saves that actually matter. They need more spells and effects that target things like strength and crush a character so heavily that they are unable to move or breathe. No casting while being crushed unless your strong fighter friends can break concentration on the caster. Things like that.
That would just make it worse imo. There needs to be some save progression in all your saves. When enemies start tossing out DC 15/17/18 and higher DCs it just turns into a game over for the wrong player. Oh you cast hold on me, well I'll go on a pizza run while the fight is resolved. It also being oh you cast crushing grip on me, well I'll go on a pizza run doesn't fix it, it just spreads the bad rules onto the rest of the players. Or at the very least drop it to 3 saves and have the best of two stats feed into one of them.
Players should sure have strengths and weaknesses but their weaknesses shouldn't just be a game over button.
That would just make it worse imo. There needs to be some save progression in all your saves. When enemies start tossing out DC 15/17/18 and higher DCs it just turns into a game over for the wrong player. Oh you cast hold on me, well I'll go on a pizza run while the fight is resolved. It also being oh you cast crushing grip on me, well I'll go on a pizza run doesn't fix it, it just spreads the bad rules onto the rest of the players. Or at the very least drop it to 3 saves and have the best of two stats feed into one of them.
Players should sure have strengths and weaknesses but their weaknesses shouldn't just be a game over button.
This is a problem with spell design in 5e. There are just WAY too many game-over spells. Which is why adding more saves to things like Banishment is a good thing.
It is also a problem with the "optimization" community that emphasizes selfish DPR play rather than cooperative defensive play. Both Hold and a Crushing grip spell could be effectively countered using a Freedom of Movement spell, and this is the case for lots of "game-over" spells - Wall of Force is countered by teleportation spells, Charm/Fear is countered by Calm Emotions, Paralysis is countered by Freedom of Movement, etc... it's just that the community doesn't really value this play-counterplay style of game (it also requires players & dms that really know the game well).
That would just make it worse imo. There needs to be some save progression in all your saves. When enemies start tossing out DC 15/17/18 and higher DCs it just turns into a game over for the wrong player. Oh you cast hold on me, well I'll go on a pizza run while the fight is resolved. It also being oh you cast crushing grip on me, well I'll go on a pizza run doesn't fix it, it just spreads the bad rules onto the rest of the players. Or at the very least drop it to 3 saves and have the best of two stats feed into one of them.
Players should sure have strengths and weaknesses but their weaknesses shouldn't just be a game over button.
This is a problem with spell design in 5e. There are just WAY too many game-over spells. Which is why adding more saves to things like Banishment is a good thing.
It is also a problem with the "optimization" community that emphasizes selfish DPR play rather than cooperative defensive play. Both Hold and a Crushing grip spell could be effectively countered using a Freedom of Movement spell, and this is the case for lots of "game-over" spells - Wall of Force is countered by teleportation spells, Charm/Fear is countered by Calm Emotions, Paralysis is countered by Freedom of Movement, etc... it's just that the community doesn't really value this play-counterplay style of game (it also requires players & dms that really know the game well).
Part of the issue is its just bad tactics not selfish DPR play. Fights don't last enough rounds to justify using a spell slot just to get a player back in the action. You are using your action and a spell slot so one character gets 2 rounds of actions. And it requires you prepare a long list of counter spells and you already have a list of niche spells for other issues. It would be nice though as even two rounds can take a lot of actual time. Time where the held player might be bored out of their mind, personally it doesn't bother me when it happens to me, I find it funny, but I have seen at my table players get really frustrated by it. And its not like they seem to be correcting this. Check out the recent space clowns. Now while the DC is only 12, it doesn't require concentration, it doesn't really even have a teamwork break it function. For anyone without proficiency in wisdom saves even if they invest a bit into wisdom its not that hard to see a time when someone rolls 10 or less 3 or 4 rounds in a row.
And while adding a save every round to banishment may be needed, it needs something else then as monsters frequently have decent saves so then the spell becomes a waste of an action. Just adding a save every round makes it a bad spell, but partly this is because the save system works differently vs PCs than vs monsters. And not only because the DM has infinite monsters and encounters, so a random monster being shut down for the fight is not punishing at all. Banishing smite works for example as it does 5d10+banish and then at least its not a waste as even if they make their save they still did 5d10.
Heck I know people crapped on 4e for feeling like a mmo but I know mmos started adding in crowd control break features into classes for a reason. Maybe spending a inspiration point should break effects or something. Give everyone 1 per long rest. Give boss monsters 1 or more as well.
I don't know that the system is bad, it is just too focused on a couple of mental stats for saves that actually matter.
It's a problem for two reasons:
Save DCs increase with level (typical monster save DC is 12+CR/2). Save bonuses often don't, and even when they do, typically don't increase as fast as DCs.
Some creatures, while dangerous, have thematic reasons to have particular stats that are low (most commonly Intelligence and Strength). They can then be trivialized by abilities that target that save (this is more of a problem with Intelligence)
To give an example:
At level 1, a PC save against a 'bad' stat (say, Int on a fighter) is probably -1 against DC 12, for a 40% chance; 'save ends' will wind up lasting an average of 1.5 turns.
At level 10, a PC save against a 'bad' stat is probably +0 (some item bonus) against DC 17, for a 20% chance; 'save ends' will wind up lasting an average of 4 turns.
At level 20, a PC save against a 'bad' stat might be +1 against DC 22, for a 0% chance; 'save ends' will last until its duration expires.
At CR 1, a monster save against a bad stat (say, Int on a beast) is probably -4 against DC 13, for a 20% chance; 'save ends' will wind up lasting an average of 4 turns.
At CR 10, a monster save against a bad stat is probably still -4, now against DC 18 (8+4(PB)+5(stat)+1(magic item)), which never succeeds.
PCs are more likely to be good at fishing for weak saves than monsters and are more likely to have access to debilitating conditions (if a monster applies prone, do you really care that much if it's impossible for you to make your save?), but because PCs often face foes at 150% of level or more, a monster that does apply nasty conditions is really really nasty at higher levels. To give an example:
If a silver dragon wyrmling uses paralyzing breath (DC 13) on some level 1 PCs, the party's mean save is probably about +2, so 50% to apply (expected duration: about 1 round). This is a waste of the dragon's actions; it should always use its cold breath (also, with a 15' cone, probably not hitting more than 2 PCs)
If a young silver dragon uses paralyzing breath (DC 17) on some level 6 PCs, the party's mean save is probably about +2.5, so 67% to apply (expected duration: about 2 rounds). This is still a fairly marginal use of the dragon's actions (30' cone might manage three PCs)
If a adult silver dragon uses paralyzing breath (DC 20) on some level 11 PCs, the party's mean save is probably about +3.5 (magic items, PB), so 78% to apply (expected duration: about 3.5 rounds). Since using its breath doesn't cost legendary actions and it's now a 60' cone that might well hit the entire party, this is an excellent use of the dragon's actions.
If a ancient silver dragon uses paralyzing breath (DC 23) on some level 16 PCs, the party's mean save is probably about +6 (magic items, PB, people taking Resilient), so 80% to apply (expected duration: about 4 rounds). Since using its breath doesn't cost legendary actions and it's now a 90' cone that might well hit the entire party, this is an excellent use of the dragon's actions.
If a silver greatwyrm uses sapping breath (DC 25) on some level 19 PCs, the party's mean save is probably about +7, so 85% to apply (expected duration: about 5 rounds), plus of course the condition is unconscious, which is harder to remove. Plus if that's not good enough, it has a shattering roar mythic action that also applies unconscious (at DC 26 this time) and doesn't have a cooldown.
Until recently there weren't that many int save spells which PCs could capitalize on the -4. I really don't think the PH has much in the way of that to make it a issue. Though usually if its -4 we are talking beasts/oozes etc which really aren't a threat so not a huge issue. Chr/wis/con while not always good saves for monsters are usually not bad either and con is usually good. And wis is where the most of the debilitating saves target.
There are definitely some monsters that need a boost, Like as a DM I do not care if rando Kobold, bear, cultist or bandit gets shut down by a spell forever, but the nightwalker is just bad design. I'm sure there is a place for powerful monster than can get shut down in one action to show the players flexing or whatever, but CR 20 nope. Like if you effectively minioned enemies 5 CR less than the party, hey im cool with that concept.
End of the day though I am generally less concerned with how the monsters hold up to the party as its just one of many encounters I plan on the players facing that day all of which I expect them to fairly easily win unless it is a boss fight or something. Making legendary saves, or a break spell feature a standard feature to be added to any "tough" mob would help for those few encounters where a easy win might be unsatisfying for the players.
The players being shut down has really been a issue for a couple of my players, the guy who loves playing fighters it seriously can wreck his game night if it happens much.
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Thank you. I like the abilities but I believe they are trying to away with immunities. Yeah, the OneD&D Druid is kind of boring right now, that’s why I’m hoping for the abilities to do cool stuff, and the elemental abilities would be an excellent addition to the class and really make them stand out. Just think if you had a stone bear that was burrowing and using tremor sense then jumping off the cliff with them.
That’s what I’m suggesting, I want them to include elemental abilities for the Moon Druid to do things no one else can do.
Have you looked at the paladin?
I did. I actually like most of the changes to the paladin. I saw they got rid of any immunities they had.
Aura of Courage (immunity to frightened), Aura of Devotion (immunity to charmed).
Welp, I missed that. Wow, that makes them powerful
Paladin auras are... a problem. They tend to trivialize most save-related problems, and the ones they don't trivialize are likely to be TPK territory if you don't have a paladin.
I think that’s why they are doing the priest group. The setup was that every party should have a one member of each group to be strong and avoid problems.
If that were the case every class in the priest group would have a means of massively boosting saves.
While I tend to agree, to be fair a Paladin's aura is only 10 feet for the majority of their levels (so the entirety of most campaigns) which does limit the effectiveness quite a bit; if you all crowd around the paladin to counteract a dragon's frightful presence, then you're just making yourselves a juicy target for its breath weapon.
Heroism by comparison doesn't have a range limit once it's cast, and gives temporary hit-points which is nice, though it is best when you know something frightening is coming up (same as the even better heroes' feast if you get to that level, and that doesn't require concentration).
So it's not like the auras are without their drawbacks and there aren't alternatives; the auras make the paladin immune for sure, but they have to choose who they extend that immunity to most of the time.
That said, with the change to Divine Smite working on ranged attacks it makes the auras a lot easier to use (if you've got a ranged weapon you don't have to balance the aura's position against being able to attack), and why I don't really like that change (I changed my mind a few times but I marked it down in the survey). I think that the juggling act of wanting to be in melee but also wanting to position your aura to maximise its effect is part of the balance of the class, and the strategy in how it plays, it also leaves more room for spells to still be useful on a Paladin even if the aura has a similar effect, so you can use both (e.g- heroism on ranged allies, aura for your fellow front-liners).
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I agree the moon druid its self in reflection isnt too bad its the wild shape overall ability that makes it just awful but if that was fixed then moon druid would be more or less fine. im currently a level 16 moon druid in my game and love elemental form but i do get they are bit op esp when it comes to their conditional immunities it drives my dm crazy when i can just go nah not gonna roll my save coz im immune. still think it could do with bit more balance tweak as its a bit weak but that could be addressed in just fixing wild shape in general
I think the save system is the problem. Fighters for example have no wisdom saves which means they most likely will fail those checks, and when they are reasonably strong a single spell will disable the fighter for the whole fight. Maybe the paladin aura is too good but right now it feels like a patch for a really crap save system.
I have to agree with Mydudesess. I don’t know a way to fix the system but unless you somehow manage to max out everything you’re probably going to suck at something and that’s okay because it gives the characters weaknesses and sort of a sense of realism
I don't know that the system is bad, it is just too focused on a couple of mental stats for saves that actually matter. They need more spells and effects that target things like strength and crush a character so heavily that they are unable to move or breathe. No casting while being crushed unless your strong fighter friends can break concentration on the caster. Things like that.
This I like since strength is such a overlooked stat
That would just make it worse imo. There needs to be some save progression in all your saves. When enemies start tossing out DC 15/17/18 and higher DCs it just turns into a game over for the wrong player. Oh you cast hold on me, well I'll go on a pizza run while the fight is resolved. It also being oh you cast crushing grip on me, well I'll go on a pizza run doesn't fix it, it just spreads the bad rules onto the rest of the players. Or at the very least drop it to 3 saves and have the best of two stats feed into one of them.
Players should sure have strengths and weaknesses but their weaknesses shouldn't just be a game over button.
I don't see it as a game over button. More of an incentive to run diverse groups who help each other out when one player gets hit with a nasty spell.
This is a problem with spell design in 5e. There are just WAY too many game-over spells. Which is why adding more saves to things like Banishment is a good thing.
It is also a problem with the "optimization" community that emphasizes selfish DPR play rather than cooperative defensive play. Both Hold and a Crushing grip spell could be effectively countered using a Freedom of Movement spell, and this is the case for lots of "game-over" spells - Wall of Force is countered by teleportation spells, Charm/Fear is countered by Calm Emotions, Paralysis is countered by Freedom of Movement, etc... it's just that the community doesn't really value this play-counterplay style of game (it also requires players & dms that really know the game well).
Part of the issue is its just bad tactics not selfish DPR play. Fights don't last enough rounds to justify using a spell slot just to get a player back in the action. You are using your action and a spell slot so one character gets 2 rounds of actions. And it requires you prepare a long list of counter spells and you already have a list of niche spells for other issues. It would be nice though as even two rounds can take a lot of actual time. Time where the held player might be bored out of their mind, personally it doesn't bother me when it happens to me, I find it funny, but I have seen at my table players get really frustrated by it. And its not like they seem to be correcting this. Check out the recent space clowns. Now while the DC is only 12, it doesn't require concentration, it doesn't really even have a teamwork break it function. For anyone without proficiency in wisdom saves even if they invest a bit into wisdom its not that hard to see a time when someone rolls 10 or less 3 or 4 rounds in a row.
And while adding a save every round to banishment may be needed, it needs something else then as monsters frequently have decent saves so then the spell becomes a waste of an action. Just adding a save every round makes it a bad spell, but partly this is because the save system works differently vs PCs than vs monsters. And not only because the DM has infinite monsters and encounters, so a random monster being shut down for the fight is not punishing at all. Banishing smite works for example as it does 5d10+banish and then at least its not a waste as even if they make their save they still did 5d10.
Heck I know people crapped on 4e for feeling like a mmo but I know mmos started adding in crowd control break features into classes for a reason. Maybe spending a inspiration point should break effects or something. Give everyone 1 per long rest. Give boss monsters 1 or more as well.
It's a problem for two reasons:
To give an example:
PCs are more likely to be good at fishing for weak saves than monsters and are more likely to have access to debilitating conditions (if a monster applies prone, do you really care that much if it's impossible for you to make your save?), but because PCs often face foes at 150% of level or more, a monster that does apply nasty conditions is really really nasty at higher levels. To give an example:
Until recently there weren't that many int save spells which PCs could capitalize on the -4. I really don't think the PH has much in the way of that to make it a issue. Though usually if its -4 we are talking beasts/oozes etc which really aren't a threat so not a huge issue. Chr/wis/con while not always good saves for monsters are usually not bad either and con is usually good. And wis is where the most of the debilitating saves target.
There are definitely some monsters that need a boost, Like as a DM I do not care if rando Kobold, bear, cultist or bandit gets shut down by a spell forever, but the nightwalker is just bad design. I'm sure there is a place for powerful monster than can get shut down in one action to show the players flexing or whatever, but CR 20 nope. Like if you effectively minioned enemies 5 CR less than the party, hey im cool with that concept.
End of the day though I am generally less concerned with how the monsters hold up to the party as its just one of many encounters I plan on the players facing that day all of which I expect them to fairly easily win unless it is a boss fight or something. Making legendary saves, or a break spell feature a standard feature to be added to any "tough" mob would help for those few encounters where a easy win might be unsatisfying for the players.
The players being shut down has really been a issue for a couple of my players, the guy who loves playing fighters it seriously can wreck his game night if it happens much.