Grapplers with burrow, I never thought of that. It’s a cool idea, though. How would that work? Would you even be able to burrow while grappling? That’s a whole new world of interesting.
Grapplers with burrow, I never thought of that. It’s a cool idea, though. How would that work? Would you even be able to burrow while grappling? That’s a whole new world of interesting.
I hate to RAW things as I think RAW alone is generally a bad argument but I think the RAW is you can drag people underground with you at 1/2 speed and it makes sense if a character had burrow I wouldn't make them drop objects they were carrying etc. And once the burrower lets go the person would likely be trapped underground unless the burrow was structurally sound enough to make a tunnel.
Edit to add the feasibility of this probably depends on the size of the creature how they would grapple and how they would burrow, with my below dragon example it used its mouth to grapple but burrowed with its talons. in theory though the burrowing tools may be occupied by the grapple so I can see a GM ruling no, not in the form. But with how 1D&D is letting you form how it looks you'd just add 2 more limbs, or a big clamping jaw.
Now me as a DM I did that but I allowed the grappled person to dig themselves out along the same path in again at 1/2 speed if they broke the grapple under ground. First time I did it was in Tyranny of Dragons the White Dragon in the flying castle dragged the fighter out through burrowing and dropped them out the bottom of the castle.
I think the problem with the abjuration perk is primal abjuration sucks. I think the problem with the list is I suspect there will be some abilities that are dramatically better than intended when done by someone with PC stats while in combination with other abilities. And while they may come out in play test sometimes its the kind of thing that comes out 6 months after game launch. As a quick example grapples with burrows might have an outsized effect.
Considering that there are vastly more monsters with burrow than ways for PCs to get burrow, I would expect most DMs to rule that grapple + burrow isn't that terrible for the grapplee t because otherwise all the monsters with burrow are suddenly WAY more powerful than their CR would suggest.
My assumption is that creatures with a burrow speed are only able to carry things along with them if they leave a tunnel behind, because grapple doesn't generally give the target movement modes it doesn't happen (then again, what happens when a flying creature does a grapple and flies away? RAW I'm pretty sure the victim, who doesn't have a flight speed, immediately falls, but somehow I doubt that's the intended behavior).
However, if a purple worm or remorhaz uses swallow whole, they probably can carry their prey underground.
My assumption is that creatures with a burrow speed are only able to carry things along with them if they leave a tunnel behind, because grapple doesn't generally give the target movement modes it doesn't happen (then again, what happens when a flying creature does a grapple and flies away? RAW I'm pretty sure the victim, who doesn't have a flight speed, immediately falls, but somehow I doubt that's the intended behavior).
However, if a purple worm or remorhaz uses swallow whole, they probably can carry their prey underground.
If you then consider water, it becomes obvious that that cannot be how it works. Almost all PCs lack a swim speed, but that doesn't mean they are incapable of entering water, and it doesn't mean a giant crocodile can't swim away with one.
My assumption is that creatures with a burrow speed are only able to carry things along with them if they leave a tunnel behind, because grapple doesn't generally give the target movement modes it doesn't happen (then again, what happens when a flying creature does a grapple and flies away? RAW I'm pretty sure the victim, who doesn't have a flight speed, immediately falls, but somehow I doubt that's the intended behavior).
However, if a purple worm or remorhaz uses swallow whole, they probably can carry their prey underground.
If you then consider water, it becomes obvious that that cannot be how it works. Almost all PCs lack a swim speed, but that doesn't mean they are incapable of entering water, and it doesn't mean a giant crocodile can't swim away with one.
PCs can normally move through water, so it is unnecessary to grant them a special movement mode for that (the problem with flight is that grapple doesn't prevent forced movement, and falling is forced movement). They cannot pass through solid objects, and thus a creature with a burrow speed would need to leave a hole. This also applies to things like air form on an air elemental, or incorporeal movement on a ghost, or the swarm trait on a swarm of rats (not that any of those monsters are likely to grapple, but there's no rule forbidding them from doing so).
I think the problem with the abjuration perk is primal abjuration sucks. I think the problem with the list is I suspect there will be some abilities that are dramatically better than intended when done by someone with PC stats while in combination with other abilities. And while they may come out in play test sometimes its the kind of thing that comes out 6 months after game launch. As a quick example grapples with burrows might have an outsized effect.
Considering that there are vastly more monsters with burrow than ways for PCs to get burrow, I would expect most DMs to rule that grapple + burrow isn't that terrible for the grapplee t because otherwise all the monsters with burrow are suddenly WAY more powerful than their CR would suggest.
The fact that you have to think of a ruling means the designers never thought about it when giving the CR for monsters. What else may not be thought of in a list of abilities.
Like I said I went with a difficult terrain model for escaping out of the dirt effectively making it really loose dirt they could push through. A sort of halfway option as it doesn't make sense to me that if a dragon is holding a player in its mouth it can't dig now, but at the same time i didn't want it to be instant death, and i don't think all burrows leave tunnels
Personally I don't think the default on burrow is that it leaves a tunnel as that is a solid value add and I'd think it should be mentioned, honestly if it doesn't it still should be mentioned. Some burrowers they specifically mention leaving tunnels, most are blank on it so my reading was the default is no tunnel unless it is specifically mentioned, this also means a giant badger or something can't make a tunnel for the party by default though a DM may allow them to create one maybe with a test. Looking at my backyard i know rodents can create tunnels but they seem to collapse early as well so reality isn't a great guide here, especially given how many thinks go counter to reality in the game.
End point though is when you have a list of abilities people can slot the players may come up with combos that are unexpectedly powerful, and once one player does assuming they post it somewhere every player will know the combo. Trying to come up with rules and balancing for every potential combo in a list seems harder to me than making a curated list of animals they can transform into.
Personally I don't think the default on burrow is that it leaves a tunnel as that is a solid value add and I'd think it should be mentioned, honestly if it doesn't it still should be mentioned.
The earth elemental has a trait indicating it doesn't leave a hole, which suggests that the default is that it does.
Personally I don't think the default on burrow is that it leaves a tunnel as that is a solid value add and I'd think it should be mentioned, honestly if it doesn't it still should be mentioned.
The earth elemental has a trait indicating it doesn't leave a hole, which suggests that the default is that it does.
Sort of, it doesn't disturb it at all is its trait, its closer to phasing than burrowing like that.
My assumption is that creatures with a burrow speed are only able to carry things along with them if they leave a tunnel behind, because grapple doesn't generally give the target movement modes it doesn't happen (then again, what happens when a flying creature does a grapple and flies away? RAW I'm pretty sure the victim, who doesn't have a flight speed, immediately falls, but somehow I doubt that's the intended behavior).
However, if a purple worm or remorhaz uses swallow whole, they probably can carry their prey underground.
If you then consider water, it becomes obvious that that cannot be how it works. Almost all PCs lack a swim speed, but that doesn't mean they are incapable of entering water, and it doesn't mean a giant crocodile can't swim away with one.
PCs can normally move through water, so it is unnecessary to grant them a special movement mode for that (the problem with flight is that grapple doesn't prevent forced movement, and falling is forced movement). They cannot pass through solid objects, and thus a creature with a burrow speed would need to leave a hole. This also applies to things like air form on an air elemental, or incorporeal movement on a ghost, or the swarm trait on a swarm of rats (not that any of those monsters are likely to grapple, but there's no rule forbidding them from doing so).
Burrow doesn't let you move through solid objects either (except for certain ones like the purple worm that specify they can eat through solid rock). Dirt is not "a solid object" every creature can dig a hole in dirt, just like every creature can wade through water, or jump through the air - just some creatures are better at it than others and that is reflected in special abilities and movement speeds.
I think the problem with the abjuration perk is primal abjuration sucks. I think the problem with the list is I suspect there will be some abilities that are dramatically better than intended when done by someone with PC stats while in combination with other abilities. And while they may come out in play test sometimes its the kind of thing that comes out 6 months after game launch. As a quick example grapples with burrows might have an outsized effect.
Considering that there are vastly more monsters with burrow than ways for PCs to get burrow, I would expect most DMs to rule that grapple + burrow isn't that terrible for the grapplee t because otherwise all the monsters with burrow are suddenly WAY more powerful than their CR would suggest.
The fact that you have to think of a ruling means the designers never thought about it when giving the CR for monsters. What else may not be thought of in a list of abilities.
Like I said I went with a difficult terrain model for escaping out of the dirt effectively making it really loose dirt they could push through. A sort of halfway option as it doesn't make sense to me that if a dragon is holding a player in its mouth it can't dig now, but at the same time i didn't want it to be instant death, and i don't think all burrows leave tunnels
Personally I don't think the default on burrow is that it leaves a tunnel as that is a solid value add and I'd think it should be mentioned, honestly if it doesn't it still should be mentioned. Some burrowers they specifically mention leaving tunnels, most are blank on it so my reading was the default is no tunnel unless it is specifically mentioned, this also means a giant badger or something can't make a tunnel for the party by default though a DM may allow them to create one maybe with a test. Looking at my backyard i know rodents can create tunnels but they seem to collapse early as well so reality isn't a great guide here, especially given how many thinks go counter to reality in the game.
End point though is when you have a list of abilities people can slot the players may come up with combos that are unexpectedly powerful, and once one player does assuming they post it somewhere every player will know the combo. Trying to come up with rules and balancing for every potential combo in a list seems harder to me than making a curated list of animals they can transform into.
The vast majority of creatures leave a tunnel behind them when they dig IRL, so I'm not sure why you assume tunnels always collapse behind you - creatures generally aren't in the habit of trapping / suffocating themselves by digging a tunnel that collapses on themselves. I think what you are confusing here is animals that allow their tunnels to be temporarily filled with the loose earth they remove as they continue digging, with tunnels that collapse. These are two very different things. The purple worm specifies it leaves a huge open tunnel because it eats the dirt & rock it tunnels through, thus the tunnel behind it is completely empty (because fortunately pooping doesn't exist in D&D), but burrowers that dig rather than eat their way through the ground could always choose to clear the earth all the way out of the tunnel behind them - thus leaving a pile of loose earth next to the entrance and a clear open tunnel. Or they can choose to just leave the loose earth behind them, partially blocking the tunnel behind themselves - though this is generally a temporary arrangement used when they are trying to escape predators since many burrowing creatures would suffocate if their tunnels sealed themselves behind them. However, a creature would never make a tunnel that collapses because that would certainly lead to them either suffocating or being crushed to death if they burrowed too deep.
I think the problem with the abjuration perk is primal abjuration sucks. I think the problem with the list is I suspect there will be some abilities that are dramatically better than intended when done by someone with PC stats while in combination with other abilities. And while they may come out in play test sometimes its the kind of thing that comes out 6 months after game launch. As a quick example grapples with burrows might have an outsized effect.
Considering that there are vastly more monsters with burrow than ways for PCs to get burrow, I would expect most DMs to rule that grapple + burrow isn't that terrible for the grapplee t because otherwise all the monsters with burrow are suddenly WAY more powerful than their CR would suggest.
The fact that you have to think of a ruling means the designers never thought about it when giving the CR for monsters. What else may not be thought of in a list of abilities.
Like I said I went with a difficult terrain model for escaping out of the dirt effectively making it really loose dirt they could push through. A sort of halfway option as it doesn't make sense to me that if a dragon is holding a player in its mouth it can't dig now, but at the same time i didn't want it to be instant death, and i don't think all burrows leave tunnels
Personally I don't think the default on burrow is that it leaves a tunnel as that is a solid value add and I'd think it should be mentioned, honestly if it doesn't it still should be mentioned. Some burrowers they specifically mention leaving tunnels, most are blank on it so my reading was the default is no tunnel unless it is specifically mentioned, this also means a giant badger or something can't make a tunnel for the party by default though a DM may allow them to create one maybe with a test. Looking at my backyard i know rodents can create tunnels but they seem to collapse early as well so reality isn't a great guide here, especially given how many thinks go counter to reality in the game.
End point though is when you have a list of abilities people can slot the players may come up with combos that are unexpectedly powerful, and once one player does assuming they post it somewhere every player will know the combo. Trying to come up with rules and balancing for every potential combo in a list seems harder to me than making a curated list of animals they can transform into.
The vast majority of creatures leave a tunnel behind them when they dig IRL, so I'm not sure why you assume tunnels always collapse behind you - creatures generally aren't in the habit of trapping / suffocating themselves by digging a tunnel that collapses on themselves. I think what you are confusing here is animals that allow their tunnels to be temporarily filled with the loose earth they remove as they continue digging, with tunnels that collapse. These are two very different things. The purple worm specifies it leaves a huge open tunnel because it eats the dirt & rock it tunnels through, thus the tunnel behind it is completely empty (because fortunately pooping doesn't exist in D&D), but burrowers that dig rather than eat their way through the ground could always choose to clear the earth all the way out of the tunnel behind them - thus leaving a pile of loose earth next to the entrance and a clear open tunnel. Or they can choose to just leave the loose earth behind them, partially blocking the tunnel behind themselves - though this is generally a temporary arrangement used when they are trying to escape predators since many burrowing creatures would suffocate if their tunnels sealed themselves behind them. However, a creature would never make a tunnel that collapses because that would certainly lead to them either suffocating or being crushed to death if they burrowed too deep.
But it’s basically how the Warlock and Artificier work. Why is this so different in regards to picking and choosing abilities?
End point though is when you have a list of abilities people can slot the players may come up with combos that are unexpectedly powerful, and once one player does assuming they post it somewhere every player will know the combo. Trying to come up with rules and balancing for every potential combo in a list seems harder to me than making a curated list of animals they can transform into.
It depends on the complexity of the interactions; the air and sea templates are mostly okay as they are, though they could maybe do with some minor extra boosts. It's really the land form where druids are losing the most options.
For example, in one of my active campaigns a druid was blinded by blindness/deafness so she decided to turn into a giant spider to overcome this thanks to its blindsight, and also found its web ability to be useful. The land form simply offers none of that utility, though the moon druid could at least grapple as a bonus action to somewhat emulate it. Other favoured options are dire wolf for the solid all around combat stats plus keen senses and pack tactics.
I think the key is to reduce the options down to as short a list as possible, while still offering a good amount of variety; we don't need to replace every monster block we used to have, but a good mixture of utility and combat bonuses. They could even do two separate, shorter lists. For example:
Not intended as a definitive list, just a sample of what you might do to keep it reasonably simple with a good amount of variety; it won't cover everything, but it also probably doesn't need to. The limited number of possible combinations, tied to only a single template, means that the chances of a massively game breaking exploit are pretty slim, and it should be fairly balanced overall. Small creatures getting two picks from the first list gives us a reason to choose Small over Medium beyond just squeezing.
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End point though is when you have a list of abilities people can slot the players may come up with combos that are unexpectedly powerful, and once one player does assuming they post it somewhere every player will know the combo. Trying to come up with rules and balancing for every potential combo in a list seems harder to me than making a curated list of animals they can transform into.
It depends on the complexity of the interactions; the air and sea templates are mostly okay as they are, though they could maybe do with some minor extra boosts. It's really the land form where druids are losing the most options.
For example, in one of my active campaigns a druid was blinded by blindness/deafness so she decided to turn into a giant spider to overcome this thanks to its blindsight, and also found its web ability to be useful. The land form simply offers none of that utility, though the moon druid could at least grapple as a bonus action to somewhat emulate it. Other favoured options are dire wolf for the solid all around combat stats plus keen senses and pack tactics.
I think the key is to reduce the options down to as short a list as possible, while still offering a good amount of variety; we don't need to replace every monster block we used to have, but a good mixture of utility and combat bonuses. They could even do two separate, shorter lists. For example:
Not intended as a definitive list, just a sample of what you might do to keep it reasonably simple with a good amount of variety; it won't cover everything, but it also probably doesn't need to. The limited number of possible combinations, tied to only a single template, means that the chances of a massively game breaking exploit are pretty slim, and it should be fairly balanced overall. Small creatures getting two picks from the first list gives us a reason to choose Small over Medium beyond just squeezing.
I like this idea. As a suggestion, what if it was select one from a movement option, Ability option, combat option. Just some ideas below
Movement:
Fleet of foot: +20 feet move speed (for Sea form applies to both swim and land movement)
Burrow: 10 feet
Spider Climb: can move on vertical surfaces and ceilings
Abilities:
Blindsight: 30 or 60 feet
Stealthy: advantage on stealth checks
Hold Breath: 1 hour (for Land to hold underwater or Sea to hold on land)
Keen Senses: (removed from template) You have advantage on WIS (Perception) checks.
Web
Combat:
Pounce: move 20 feet toward target. If your bestial strike hits, target makes STR saving throw or knocked prone and you can make one additional bestial strike attack.
Pack Tactics: Advantage on attack if ally within 5 feet of target
Charge: move 20 feet toward target. If your bestial strike hits, target makes STR saving throw or takes damage equal to your bestial strike and is knocked prone.
Venom: on a bestial strike hit target makes CON save or takes poison damage and has poisoned condition. at the start of each of the targets turns they can make another save to end the condition. Venom can only be used once on your turn.
Constrict: If you grapple a creature they need to make a STR save or become restrained. Ends if they break the grapple.
Charge and Pounce could be combined into one Combat feature since they basically do the same thing (save or knock prone and possible extra damage)
Fleet of foot: +30 feet move speed (applies to all movement speeds you have)
Burrow: 10 feet
Climb: climb speed equal to your walking speed, if you fall and are Small or smaller you can use a reaction to take 0 damage as a result of that fall.
Spider Climb: can move on vertical surfaces and ceilings
Jump: your jump distance is tripled.
Abilities:
Blindsight: 30 or 60 feet
Stealthy: advantage on stealth checks
Keen Senses: You have advantage on WIS (Perception) checks.
Strong: You have advantage on STR (Athletics) checks.
Sure-footed: You have advantage on STR / DEX saves to avoid being knocked prone.
Massive Size: You become Huge.
Hold Breath: 1 hour (for Land to hold underwater or Sea to hold on land)
Web
Flyby
Combat:
Pounce / Charge: move 20 feet toward target. If your bestial strike hits, target makes STR saving throw or knocked prone and you can make one additional bestial strike attack.
Pack Tactics: Advantage on attack if ally within 5 feet of target
Multiattack: 2 attacks per action
Venom: on a bestial strike hit target makes CON save or takes poison damage and has poisoned condition. at the start of each of the targets turns they can make another save to end the condition. Venom can only be used once on your turn.
Pincers: when you hit a target with a beastial strike they become grappled by you (escape DC = your spellcasting DC).
Constrict: If you grapple a creature they need to make a STR save or become restrained. Ends if they break the grapple.
Fleet of foot: +30 feet move speed (applies to all movement speeds you have)
Burrow: 10 feet
Climb: climb speed equal to your walking speed, if you fall and are Small or smaller you can use a reaction to take 0 damage as a result of that fall.
Spider Climb: can move on vertical surfaces and ceilings
Jump: your jump distance is tripled.
Abilities:
Blindsight: 30 or 60 feet
Stealthy: advantage on stealth checks
Keen Senses: You have advantage on WIS (Perception) checks.
Strong: You have advantage on STR (Athletics) checks.
Sure-footed: You have advantage on STR / DEX saves to avoid being knocked prone.
Massive Size: You become Huge.
Hold Breath: 1 hour (for Land to hold underwater or Sea to hold on land)
Web
Flyby
Combat:
Pounce / Charge: move 20 feet toward target. If your bestial strike hits, target makes STR saving throw or knocked prone and you can make one additional bestial strike attack.
Pack Tactics: Advantage on attack if ally within 5 feet of target
Multiattack: 2 attacks per action
Venom: on a bestial strike hit target makes CON save or takes poison damage and has poisoned condition. at the start of each of the targets turns they can make another save to end the condition. Venom can only be used once on your turn.
Pincers: when you hit a target with a beastial strike they become grappled by you (escape DC = your spellcasting DC).
Constrict: If you grapple a creature they need to make a STR save or become restrained. Ends if they break the grapple.
I’m loving these ideas. I like the 3 categories. That balances stuff nicely. I’m sure someone will find a way to break something, but this is good. Now, that the survey is open, I hope everyone puts something like this in there so we can save ourselves from a future of Boring Druids.
i sortta get the new template thing (i dont like it but i get it and with a few tweaks could live with it) id give the templates hp wis mod+druid level or wis mod * druid level for moon druid this would give a max 26 for non moon druid (level 20 getting to 22 wis) or 110 for moon druid at level 20 not a lot in grand scheme of things giving the low ac and stuff (just look at the totem barbarian raging essentially doubles their hp and in a fair few cases even dropping to 0 doesnt kill them. maybe also give the ws templates an unarmored defense 10+dex+wis. provide either more blocks or options like the summon spells do (not conjour) or options like eldritch invocations.
personally i dont get the whole looking thru the mm or other books issue since polymorph, animal forms and shape change all do the same and at higher cr but could always do the Xanathars method of limiting and provide a list of suitable ws for normal and moon druids and provide an optional rule to use other forms.
the new moon druid isnt too bad at face value it provides the nerf of non elemental forms while still giving some elemental stuff what makes it poop is the wild shape feature itself.
oh and another change is allowing equipment to stay equipped (mainly for magical tattoos esp the barrier tattoo)
Fleet of foot: +30 feet move speed (applies to all movement speeds you have)
Burrow: 10 feet
Climb: climb speed equal to your walking speed, if you fall and are Small or smaller you can use a reaction to take 0 damage as a result of that fall.
Spider Climb: can move on vertical surfaces and ceilings
Jump: your jump distance is tripled.
Abilities:
Blindsight: 30 or 60 feet
Stealthy: advantage on stealth checks
Keen Senses: You have advantage on WIS (Perception) checks.
Strong: You have advantage on STR (Athletics) checks.
Sure-footed: You have advantage on STR / DEX saves to avoid being knocked prone.
Massive Size: You become Huge.
Hold Breath: 1 hour (for Land to hold underwater or Sea to hold on land)
Web
Flyby
Combat:
Pounce / Charge: move 20 feet toward target. If your bestial strike hits, target makes STR saving throw or knocked prone and you can make one additional bestial strike attack.
Pack Tactics: Advantage on attack if ally within 5 feet of target
Multiattack: 2 attacks per action
Venom: on a bestial strike hit target makes CON save or takes poison damage and has poisoned condition. at the start of each of the targets turns they can make another save to end the condition. Venom can only be used once on your turn.
Pincers: when you hit a target with a beastial strike they become grappled by you (escape DC = your spellcasting DC).
Constrict: If you grapple a creature they need to make a STR save or become restrained. Ends if they break the grapple.
This is of course what those who brave the Druid Wildshape now in 5e value so much about the utility of the option. My point is that it doesn't really need to change, since this is a lot of options to add to the statblocks. After a few glances through the animals lists for your level (you're not often looking through all of the animals, but have a pretty good idea what type of feature you want).
This still leaves out fun and unique options like an Ape's rock throw, the relentlessness of a boar, or the ability to carry other characters as a number of beasts can do.
Transforming into a beast is very different thing than having the abilities of a beast. It's also a potential deception, and opens up lots of FUN possibilities for communication or lack thereof. i've found it brings some characters together in a group as someone needs to have something (speak with animals, telepathy, etc) to talk to the Druid in Wildshape, so that bond and utility, the roleplaying possibilities, and the FUN of having some restrictions in character interaction help the game develop storylines.
This is so much more than combat, and those who critique Wildshape in 5e seem in general to be those who want to use it to be much stronger in combat or those who don't play Druid at all.
I do play Druids, and have had Druids at my table, and I value the unexpectedness that comes with the diverse options a Druid can employ in every phase of the game throughout the levels. A Druid evolves and may use these functions differently at every level.
PS - Summoning spells that call beasts, Fey, Elementals and other types are MUCH more complex to play and use that Wildshape, but also incredibly FUN!
So, I just finished the survey and I actually had some thoughts while doing it. The Moon Druid isn’t bad if they actually fix the wildshape in the ways that most people seem to be suggesting. What I think would be interesting, though is the big ‘elemental’ question. People want to transform into an elemental from what I understand. This kind of does that but to add to it and what I put in my survey was that like the animal abilities being part of the base Druid’s wildshape, maybe the Moon Druid could get elemental abilities making them more like an elemental at higher levels. I’m thinking bird made of pure fire or wind that can slip through small holes and stuff like that. I don’t remember any other elemental abilities at the moment, though but I think this idea would be amazing. Thoughts?
So, I just finished the survey and I actually had some thoughts while doing it. The Moon Druid isn’t bad if they actually fix the wildshape in the ways that most people seem to be suggesting. What I think would be interesting, though is the big ‘elemental’ question. People want to transform into an elemental from what I understand. This kind of does that but to add to it and what I put in my survey was that like the animal abilities being part of the base Druid’s wildshape, maybe the Moon Druid could get elemental abilities making them more like an elemental at higher levels. I’m thinking bird made of pure fire or wind that can slip through small holes and stuff like that. I don’t remember any other elemental abilities at the moment, though but I think this idea would be amazing. Thoughts?
Since I'm currently playing a high level Moon druid and enjoying the Elemental forms at lot here are their abilities: 1) damage resistances & immunities - resist b/s/p and immune to 1-2 related to that elemental form 2) unique movement options - super fast flight, earth glide, super swimming 3) condition immunities: poisoned, grappled, restrained 4) special abilities - tremorsense, whirlwind, fire aura, Whelm.
These basically add up to: Earth Elemental = sneaky & tanky Water Elemental = swimmer & grappler/restrained Air Elemental = flying & forced movement of enemies Fire Elemental = damage focused with multi-target potential
One D&D's elemental flavouring is... lackluster at best. You get 1 damage immunity and a bit of extra damage that your enemy is probably resistant or immune to.
e.g. as an Earth Elemental I can sneakily glide through the ground and up to the top of a cliff, find any enemy sentries up there with tremorsense then burst out of the ground, grab them and jump off the cliff with them to kill them before they can raise the alarm. As a One D&D elemental form... I can look like a bear that's on fire and deal a little bit extra damage.
Grapplers with burrow, I never thought of that. It’s a cool idea, though. How would that work? Would you even be able to burrow while grappling? That’s a whole new world of interesting.
I hate to RAW things as I think RAW alone is generally a bad argument but I think the RAW is you can drag people underground with you at 1/2 speed and it makes sense if a character had burrow I wouldn't make them drop objects they were carrying etc. And once the burrower lets go the person would likely be trapped underground unless the burrow was structurally sound enough to make a tunnel.
Edit to add the feasibility of this probably depends on the size of the creature how they would grapple and how they would burrow, with my below dragon example it used its mouth to grapple but burrowed with its talons. in theory though the burrowing tools may be occupied by the grapple so I can see a GM ruling no, not in the form. But with how 1D&D is letting you form how it looks you'd just add 2 more limbs, or a big clamping jaw.
Now me as a DM I did that but I allowed the grappled person to dig themselves out along the same path in again at 1/2 speed if they broke the grapple under ground. First time I did it was in Tyranny of Dragons the White Dragon in the flying castle dragged the fighter out through burrowing and dropped them out the bottom of the castle.
Considering that there are vastly more monsters with burrow than ways for PCs to get burrow, I would expect most DMs to rule that grapple + burrow isn't that terrible for the grapplee t because otherwise all the monsters with burrow are suddenly WAY more powerful than their CR would suggest.
My assumption is that creatures with a burrow speed are only able to carry things along with them if they leave a tunnel behind, because grapple doesn't generally give the target movement modes it doesn't happen (then again, what happens when a flying creature does a grapple and flies away? RAW I'm pretty sure the victim, who doesn't have a flight speed, immediately falls, but somehow I doubt that's the intended behavior).
However, if a purple worm or remorhaz uses swallow whole, they probably can carry their prey underground.
If you then consider water, it becomes obvious that that cannot be how it works. Almost all PCs lack a swim speed, but that doesn't mean they are incapable of entering water, and it doesn't mean a giant crocodile can't swim away with one.
PCs can normally move through water, so it is unnecessary to grant them a special movement mode for that (the problem with flight is that grapple doesn't prevent forced movement, and falling is forced movement). They cannot pass through solid objects, and thus a creature with a burrow speed would need to leave a hole. This also applies to things like air form on an air elemental, or incorporeal movement on a ghost, or the swarm trait on a swarm of rats (not that any of those monsters are likely to grapple, but there's no rule forbidding them from doing so).
The fact that you have to think of a ruling means the designers never thought about it when giving the CR for monsters. What else may not be thought of in a list of abilities.
Like I said I went with a difficult terrain model for escaping out of the dirt effectively making it really loose dirt they could push through. A sort of halfway option as it doesn't make sense to me that if a dragon is holding a player in its mouth it can't dig now, but at the same time i didn't want it to be instant death, and i don't think all burrows leave tunnels
Personally I don't think the default on burrow is that it leaves a tunnel as that is a solid value add and I'd think it should be mentioned, honestly if it doesn't it still should be mentioned. Some burrowers they specifically mention leaving tunnels, most are blank on it so my reading was the default is no tunnel unless it is specifically mentioned, this also means a giant badger or something can't make a tunnel for the party by default though a DM may allow them to create one maybe with a test. Looking at my backyard i know rodents can create tunnels but they seem to collapse early as well so reality isn't a great guide here, especially given how many thinks go counter to reality in the game.
End point though is when you have a list of abilities people can slot the players may come up with combos that are unexpectedly powerful, and once one player does assuming they post it somewhere every player will know the combo. Trying to come up with rules and balancing for every potential combo in a list seems harder to me than making a curated list of animals they can transform into.
The earth elemental has a trait indicating it doesn't leave a hole, which suggests that the default is that it does.
Sort of, it doesn't disturb it at all is its trait, its closer to phasing than burrowing like that.
Burrow doesn't let you move through solid objects either (except for certain ones like the purple worm that specify they can eat through solid rock). Dirt is not "a solid object" every creature can dig a hole in dirt, just like every creature can wade through water, or jump through the air - just some creatures are better at it than others and that is reflected in special abilities and movement speeds.
The vast majority of creatures leave a tunnel behind them when they dig IRL, so I'm not sure why you assume tunnels always collapse behind you - creatures generally aren't in the habit of trapping / suffocating themselves by digging a tunnel that collapses on themselves. I think what you are confusing here is animals that allow their tunnels to be temporarily filled with the loose earth they remove as they continue digging, with tunnels that collapse. These are two very different things. The purple worm specifies it leaves a huge open tunnel because it eats the dirt & rock it tunnels through, thus the tunnel behind it is completely empty (because fortunately pooping doesn't exist in D&D), but burrowers that dig rather than eat their way through the ground could always choose to clear the earth all the way out of the tunnel behind them - thus leaving a pile of loose earth next to the entrance and a clear open tunnel. Or they can choose to just leave the loose earth behind them, partially blocking the tunnel behind themselves - though this is generally a temporary arrangement used when they are trying to escape predators since many burrowing creatures would suffocate if their tunnels sealed themselves behind them. However, a creature would never make a tunnel that collapses because that would certainly lead to them either suffocating or being crushed to death if they burrowed too deep.
But it’s basically how the Warlock and Artificier work. Why is this so different in regards to picking and choosing abilities?
It depends on the complexity of the interactions; the air and sea templates are mostly okay as they are, though they could maybe do with some minor extra boosts. It's really the land form where druids are losing the most options.
For example, in one of my active campaigns a druid was blinded by blindness/deafness so she decided to turn into a giant spider to overcome this thanks to its blindsight, and also found its web ability to be useful. The land form simply offers none of that utility, though the moon druid could at least grapple as a bonus action to somewhat emulate it. Other favoured options are dire wolf for the solid all around combat stats plus keen senses and pack tactics.
I think the key is to reduce the options down to as short a list as possible, while still offering a good amount of variety; we don't need to replace every monster block we used to have, but a good mixture of utility and combat bonuses. They could even do two separate, shorter lists. For example:
Choose One Feature (Two if Small):
Choose One Feature:
Not intended as a definitive list, just a sample of what you might do to keep it reasonably simple with a good amount of variety; it won't cover everything, but it also probably doesn't need to. The limited number of possible combinations, tied to only a single template, means that the chances of a massively game breaking exploit are pretty slim, and it should be fairly balanced overall. Small creatures getting two picks from the first list gives us a reason to choose Small over Medium beyond just squeezing.
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I like this idea. As a suggestion, what if it was select one from a movement option, Ability option, combat option. Just some ideas below
Movement:
Abilities:
Combat:
Charge and Pounce could be combined into one Combat feature since they basically do the same thing (save or knock prone and possible extra damage)
I'm sure a few more options could be added.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I like it but it needs more options:
Movement:
Abilities:
Combat:
I’m loving these ideas. I like the 3 categories. That balances stuff nicely. I’m sure someone will find a way to break something, but this is good. Now, that the survey is open, I hope everyone puts something like this in there so we can save ourselves from a future of Boring Druids.
havnt fully read this thread but anyway
i sortta get the new template thing (i dont like it but i get it and with a few tweaks could live with it)
id give the templates hp wis mod+druid level or wis mod * druid level for moon druid this would give a max 26 for non moon druid (level 20 getting to 22 wis) or 110 for moon druid at level 20 not a lot in grand scheme of things giving the low ac and stuff (just look at the totem barbarian raging essentially doubles their hp and in a fair few cases even dropping to 0 doesnt kill them. maybe also give the ws templates an unarmored defense 10+dex+wis. provide either more blocks or options like the summon spells do (not conjour) or options like eldritch invocations.
personally i dont get the whole looking thru the mm or other books issue since polymorph, animal forms and shape change all do the same and at higher cr but could always do the Xanathars method of limiting and provide a list of suitable ws for normal and moon druids and provide an optional rule to use other forms.
the new moon druid isnt too bad at face value it provides the nerf of non elemental forms while still giving some elemental stuff what makes it poop is the wild shape feature itself.
oh and another change is allowing equipment to stay equipped (mainly for magical tattoos esp the barrier tattoo)
This is of course what those who brave the Druid Wildshape now in 5e value so much about the utility of the option. My point is that it doesn't really need to change, since this is a lot of options to add to the statblocks. After a few glances through the animals lists for your level (you're not often looking through all of the animals, but have a pretty good idea what type of feature you want).
This still leaves out fun and unique options like an Ape's rock throw, the relentlessness of a boar, or the ability to carry other characters as a number of beasts can do.
Transforming into a beast is very different thing than having the abilities of a beast. It's also a potential deception, and opens up lots of FUN possibilities for communication or lack thereof. i've found it brings some characters together in a group as someone needs to have something (speak with animals, telepathy, etc) to talk to the Druid in Wildshape, so that bond and utility, the roleplaying possibilities, and the FUN of having some restrictions in character interaction help the game develop storylines.
This is so much more than combat, and those who critique Wildshape in 5e seem in general to be those who want to use it to be much stronger in combat or those who don't play Druid at all.
I do play Druids, and have had Druids at my table, and I value the unexpectedness that comes with the diverse options a Druid can employ in every phase of the game throughout the levels. A Druid evolves and may use these functions differently at every level.
PS - Summoning spells that call beasts, Fey, Elementals and other types are MUCH more complex to play and use that Wildshape, but also incredibly FUN!
So, I just finished the survey and I actually had some thoughts while doing it. The Moon Druid isn’t bad if they actually fix the wildshape in the ways that most people seem to be suggesting. What I think would be interesting, though is the big ‘elemental’ question. People want to transform into an elemental from what I understand. This kind of does that but to add to it and what I put in my survey was that like the animal abilities being part of the base Druid’s wildshape, maybe the Moon Druid could get elemental abilities making them more like an elemental at higher levels. I’m thinking bird made of pure fire or wind that can slip through small holes and stuff like that. I don’t remember any other elemental abilities at the moment, though but I think this idea would be amazing.
Thoughts?
Since I'm currently playing a high level Moon druid and enjoying the Elemental forms at lot here are their abilities:
1) damage resistances & immunities - resist b/s/p and immune to 1-2 related to that elemental form
2) unique movement options - super fast flight, earth glide, super swimming
3) condition immunities: poisoned, grappled, restrained
4) special abilities - tremorsense, whirlwind, fire aura, Whelm.
These basically add up to:
Earth Elemental = sneaky & tanky
Water Elemental = swimmer & grappler/restrained
Air Elemental = flying & forced movement of enemies
Fire Elemental = damage focused with multi-target potential
One D&D's elemental flavouring is... lackluster at best. You get 1 damage immunity and a bit of extra damage that your enemy is probably resistant or immune to.
e.g. as an Earth Elemental I can sneakily glide through the ground and up to the top of a cliff, find any enemy sentries up there with tremorsense then burst out of the ground, grab them and jump off the cliff with them to kill them before they can raise the alarm. As a One D&D elemental form... I can look like a bear that's on fire and deal a little bit extra damage.