Well, Monks don't tend to fight exclusively with their fists at most levels, so that seems like an odd issue. You've still got your bonus action strike and your flurry of blows, so you should be doing about the same amount of kicking and punching as any other Monk, even if you've got a weapon that does more damage. Anyways, I already addressed that with Mystical Wallop.
They way things are, monks don't tend to fight with their fists at any levels. In 5e, quarterstaff and spear are better for half of your entire progression - usually the entire published campaign.
Another point - why should MA require bonus action in the first place? A 1st level fighter can make two attacks with light weapons without needing a bonus action, and second attack will even have advantage. No feats, no resources required. Just a shortsword, a scimitar, two-weapon fighting style, nick and vex masteries. Why must monk be worse? Save the bonus action for something else. Open Hand already has conflicting features that both use bonus action, Open Hand Technique and Fleet Step.
Either use weapons like any other warrior class (using Dex instead of Str), or switch to unarmed emulating dual wielding with Nick mastery. Bonus action could be used for fancy techniques, grapples, throwing enemies, applying stunning strike like you would apply smite, etc.
Another point - why should MA require bonus action in the first place? A 1st level fighter can make two attacks with light weapons without needing a bonus action, and second attack will even have advantage. No feats, no resources required. Just a shortsword, a scimitar, two-weapon fighting style, nick and vex masteries. Why must monk be worse? Save the bonus action for something else. Open Hand already has conflicting features that both use bonus action, Open Hand Technique and Fleet Step.
Either use weapons like any other warrior class (using Dex instead of Str), or switch to unarmed emulating dual wielding with Nick mastery. Bonus action could be used for fancy techniques, grapples, throwing enemies, applying stunning strike like you would apply smite, etc.
I concur. Instead of the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike feature, just classify the Unarmed Strikes as Light Weapons. This causes a damage loss of DEX (because the Light Weapon property does not add the modifier). IMO the damage loss can be made up with Deflect Attack or another feature. Then the Monk's Unarmed Strikes could receive the Nick Mastery by default, with possible changes/additions at later levels.
I concur. Instead of the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike feature, just classify the Unarmed Strikes as Light Weapons. This causes a damage loss of DEX (because the Light Weapon property does not add the modifier). IMO the damage loss can be made up with Deflect Attack or another feature. Then the Monk's Unarmed Strikes could receive the Nick Mastery by default, with possible changes/additions at later levels.
Why have a damage loss at all, why not have two-weapon fighting style for unarmed built into martial arts? Why must monk be worse than other warriors?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Regarding weapons, I believe it was a good idea to divorce martial arts from weapons. In 5e, as soon as you find literally any magic weapon usable by monk, you never fight with your fists again, because with the same damage die, a magic weapon also has the magic bonuses that fists cannot ever have.
This will always always be the case, 5e is deliberately designed so that magic items are optional and if used are always a bonus rather than making them required to keep up with monster scaling. This means that using a magic weapon is always better than using basic equipment or natural weapons. Unarmed fighting can never match a magic weapon, either the DM has to homebrew an unarmed version of magic weapon as e.g. magic hand-wraps, or not give anyone magic weapons, if someone wants to fight unarmed - whether they choose to do so using Tavern Brawler, Natural Weapons (e.g. druid WS), or as a monk.
Thus One D&D is simply nerfing monk by preventing them from using their MA die with weapons.
This will always always be the case, 5e is deliberately designed so that magic items are optional and if used are always a bonus rather than making them required to keep up with monster scaling.
I find this statement questionable. I'm yet to see a published adventure without a single magic weapon. DMG also has a table for magic item rarity per character level, making it clear what level of power is intended for every tier of play.
Regarding weapons, I believe it was a good idea to divorce martial arts from weapons. In 5e, as soon as you find literally any magic weapon usable by monk, you never fight with your fists again, because with the same damage die, a magic weapon also has the magic bonuses that fists cannot ever have.
To solve this already proposed:
About equipment, we need to add the Gloves weapon, that really does nothing, only applies features to unarmed attacks. Then it is a magical item that can be found, crafted or purchased like any other, solving the problem IMO a fair way for the others about compensating the MA and the loot items.
About equipment, we need to add the Gloves weapon, that really does nothing, only applies features to unarmed attacks. Then it is a magical item that can be found, crafted or purchased like any other, solving the problem IMO a fair way for the others about compensating the MA and the loot items.
A whole new weapon category to fix one problem of one class? It's a crutch, not a solution.
This will always always be the case, 5e is deliberately designed so that magic items are optional and if used are always a bonus rather than making them required to keep up with monster scaling.
I find this statement questionable. I'm yet to see a published adventure without a single magic weapon. DMG also has a table for magic item rarity per character level, making it clear what level of power is intended for every tier of play.
Regardless of what you think, if you use the CR table provided to help DMs balance HB monsters, and calculate the baseline chance to hit assuming players max out their attack stat ASAP but never get magical weapons, then the chance to hit remains flat at 0.65 assuming a PC typically fights creatures of the same CR as their level. Thus ensuring that a magical +1 weapon remains an equal bonus across all levels, and failure to acquire one does not cause PCs to fall behind as increases in monster stats outpace their increases in stats. Similarly the average chance for an enemy to fail a saving throw against a spell remains flat at 0.5 (assuming casters max out their spell DC ASAP).
It's why the loot tables can be random, rather than the DMG saying something like "by level 7 each member of the party should have +1 weapons and +1 armour".
About equipment, we need to add the Gloves weapon, that really does nothing, only applies features to unarmed attacks. Then it is a magical item that can be found, crafted or purchased like any other, solving the problem IMO a fair way for the others about compensating the MA and the loot items.
A whole new weapon category to fix one problem of one class? It's a crutch, not a solution.
Simple weapon, not category. Maybe I should have put Glove, but as it is a pair…
I concur. Instead of the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike feature, just classify the Unarmed Strikes as Light Weapons. This causes a damage loss of DEX (because the Light Weapon property does not add the modifier). IMO the damage loss can be made up with Deflect Attack or another feature. Then the Monk's Unarmed Strikes could receive the Nick Mastery by default, with possible changes/additions at later levels.
Why have a damage loss at all, why not have two-weapon fighting style for unarmed built into martial arts? Why must monk be worse than other warriors?
Sorry, I had an unstated assumption. In my head I was imagining Deflect Attack would counterattack/redirect damage without costing a Discipline Point. Such a Deflect Attack would increase a Monk's damage output. This would roughly compensate for the loss of the DEX modifier on the Light Weapon attack.
You are correct, just classifying Unarmed Strikes as Light Weapons by itself would be a downgrade.
Sorry, I had an unstated assumption. In my head I was imagining Deflect Attack would counterattack/redirect damage without costing a Discipline Point. Such a Deflect Attack would increase a Monk's damage output. This would roughly compensate for the loss of the DEX modifier on the Light Weapon attack.
I wouldn't make damage output rely on what enemies might decide to do. Barbarian's rage no longer relies on receiving damage, for instance.
mix what they did with the Rogue (Cunning Strike), the Cleric/Druid (Divine order) and Warriors (Fighting style) to make something like a monastic (discipline/secret arts/epiphany) that give the monk a way to adjust as the player want without altering the Core class too much.
This could provide much flexibility on what players thing would fix the monk since there are various factions.
I've added an alternative option to Fighting Style.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I saw someone else post about stances on another thread. While I didn’t like their stances or how they incorporated them it inspired me to think of a use for stances that would be meaningful.
Include them in the Martial Arts feature.
Martial Arts Stances: You know two stances from the list below at 1st level. You gain an additional stance when your monk level increases at 3rd, 7th, 11th, and 15th. You may use a bonus action to begin a Martial Arts Stance. While in the stance you are concentrating as if concentrating on a spell. The stance ends if you end it (no action required)or lose concentration.
Agile Focus: While in this stance you may use your reaction when you are hit by an attack to reduce the damage taken to half. Additionally when you take the dodge action you also increase your AC by an amount equal to your proficiency bonus until the start of your next turn.
Assault Focus: While in this stance you may use your reaction when you hit to increase the damage of a attack. The increase is equal to a roll of your Martial Arts die. Additionally you may dash as a bonus action as long as you end the movement closer to an enemy.
Break Focus: While in this stance you deal double damage to objects you hit with your unarmed attacks. Additionally you when you hit a construct with a melee attack you deal 1d4 additional damage.
Heavy Weapon Focus: While in this stance you can use your Dexterity for attack and damage rolls of weapons with the heavy property.
Precision Focus: While in this stance you gain a +1 bonus to your attack rolls that don’t already have bonus provided by magic (ex: +1 weapon, or a spell) or some other feature (ex: Archery fighting style). This bonus increases to +2 at 5th, and +3 at 11th. Additionally you have advantage on (Dex) Sleight of Hand and (Dex) skill checks that use a tool.
Power Focus: While in this stance when you hit with an unarmed strike you may add both Dex and Str to the damage roll. Additionally you may add your Str to (Dex) Acrobatics skill check totals and add your Dex to (Str) Athletics skill check totals.
Roll Focus: While in this stance you may use Dex, Str, or Wis to make checks to grapple or avoid being grappled. Additionally while you have a creature grappled you deal your martial arts die of bludgeoning damage to it and the end of each of its turns while it remains grappled. At 6th level Monk you may choose to make this damage force.
Stealth Focus: While in this stance you gain a bonus to Stealth checks equal to a roll of your Martial Arts Die. Additionally you may Hide as a bonus action.
Tumble Focus: While in this stance you may immediately make one unarmed strike whenever you use the disengage action as part of the same action or bonus action. Additionally your movement speed increases 5ft and you have advantage on Acrobatics skill checks.
Unarmed Focus: While in this stance your unarmed strikes deal an additional 1d4 damage.
Weapon Focus: While in this stance your weapon attacks with weapons you are proficient with can use your Martial Arts die for damage rolls. Additionally you may use any weapon you are proficient with instead of a unarmed strike for your bonus action attack provided by Martial Arts.
Wise Warrior Focus: While in this stance you may use your Wisdom for attack and damage rolls for unarmed strikes and weapons you are proficient with. Additionally you gain a bonus to your (Wis) Medicine skill checks equal to your martial arts die.
I originally was naming these things like “Raging tiger stance” and “mountain stance” but realized that is the type of thing Monk is suppose to move away from. These haven’t been balanced at all. Just some stuff I came up with off the top of my head. I tried not to let any one out shine the other, or just be too strong in general. Some may need to be level locked. Unarmed focus is probably too good at level one but fine by 5th level.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
HP based on 1d8+CON+WIS or 1d8+CON+WIS/2 modifier doesn't penalize us for being MAD, plays into the mind over body thing (make is so it doesn't work if you're wearing armor to prevent mulitclassing shenanigans or put it at level 3-5ish)
Rename Discipline to Focus, Give Focus points = monk level +WIS modifier or monk level +PB
Focus(Discipline) Save DC = 8+PB+WIS+DEX or 8+PB+WIS+DEX/2 or 8+PB+WIS/2+DEX/2 doesn't penalize us for being MAD, also fights back against the huge nerf to stunning strike
Stunning Strike now gives the Dazed condition on fail or Dazed condition on fail PB/SR or PB/LR.
Patient Defense is now a Reaction, or Patient Defense is Reaction and free PB/LR, or Patient Defense is free PB/LR
Give Monks access to martial feats - many require proficiency in some martial weapons
Keep the Martial Arts die levels but have it work with weapons - Useless with Mastery now. Spears and Quaterstaffs are already 1d8 since we can't wield shields, others are big DPR nerf for an action.
Give Unarmed Strikes Nick/Sap/Slow/Push Mastery choice 2 per day, pick at LR.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
They way things are, monks don't tend to fight with their fists at any levels. In 5e, quarterstaff and spear are better for half of your entire progression - usually the entire published campaign.
Another point - why should MA require bonus action in the first place? A 1st level fighter can make two attacks with light weapons without needing a bonus action, and second attack will even have advantage. No feats, no resources required. Just a shortsword, a scimitar, two-weapon fighting style, nick and vex masteries. Why must monk be worse? Save the bonus action for something else. Open Hand already has conflicting features that both use bonus action, Open Hand Technique and Fleet Step.
Either use weapons like any other warrior class (using Dex instead of Str), or switch to unarmed emulating dual wielding with Nick mastery. Bonus action could be used for fancy techniques, grapples, throwing enemies, applying stunning strike like you would apply smite, etc.
I concur. Instead of the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike feature, just classify the Unarmed Strikes as Light Weapons. This causes a damage loss of DEX (because the Light Weapon property does not add the modifier). IMO the damage loss can be made up with Deflect Attack or another feature. Then the Monk's Unarmed Strikes could receive the Nick Mastery by default, with possible changes/additions at later levels.
Why have a damage loss at all, why not have two-weapon fighting style for unarmed built into martial arts? Why must monk be worse than other warriors?
I've added Pop Pop.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
This will always always be the case, 5e is deliberately designed so that magic items are optional and if used are always a bonus rather than making them required to keep up with monster scaling. This means that using a magic weapon is always better than using basic equipment or natural weapons. Unarmed fighting can never match a magic weapon, either the DM has to homebrew an unarmed version of magic weapon as e.g. magic hand-wraps, or not give anyone magic weapons, if someone wants to fight unarmed - whether they choose to do so using Tavern Brawler, Natural Weapons (e.g. druid WS), or as a monk.
Thus One D&D is simply nerfing monk by preventing them from using their MA die with weapons.
I find this statement questionable. I'm yet to see a published adventure without a single magic weapon. DMG also has a table for magic item rarity per character level, making it clear what level of power is intended for every tier of play.
To solve this already proposed:
A whole new weapon category to fix one problem of one class? It's a crutch, not a solution.
Regardless of what you think, if you use the CR table provided to help DMs balance HB monsters, and calculate the baseline chance to hit assuming players max out their attack stat ASAP but never get magical weapons, then the chance to hit remains flat at 0.65 assuming a PC typically fights creatures of the same CR as their level. Thus ensuring that a magical +1 weapon remains an equal bonus across all levels, and failure to acquire one does not cause PCs to fall behind as increases in monster stats outpace their increases in stats. Similarly the average chance for an enemy to fail a saving throw against a spell remains flat at 0.5 (assuming casters max out their spell DC ASAP).
It's why the loot tables can be random, rather than the DMG saying something like "by level 7 each member of the party should have +1 weapons and +1 armour".
Simple weapon, not category. Maybe I should have put Glove, but as it is a pair…
Sorry, I had an unstated assumption. In my head I was imagining Deflect Attack would counterattack/redirect damage without costing a Discipline Point. Such a Deflect Attack would increase a Monk's damage output. This would roughly compensate for the loss of the DEX modifier on the Light Weapon attack.
You are correct, just classifying Unarmed Strikes as Light Weapons by itself would be a downgrade.
I wouldn't make damage output rely on what enemies might decide to do. Barbarian's rage no longer relies on receiving damage, for instance.
I posted this on another thread:
mix what they did with the Rogue (Cunning Strike), the Cleric/Druid (Divine order) and Warriors (Fighting style) to make something like a monastic (discipline/secret arts/epiphany) that give the monk a way to adjust as the player want without altering the Core class too much.
This could provide much flexibility on what players thing would fix the monk since there are various factions.
I've added an alternative option to Fighting Style.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I saw someone else post about stances on another thread. While I didn’t like their stances or how they incorporated them it inspired me to think of a use for stances that would be meaningful.
Include them in the Martial Arts feature.
Martial Arts Stances: You know two stances from the list below at 1st level. You gain an additional stance when your monk level increases at 3rd, 7th, 11th, and 15th. You may use a bonus action to begin a Martial Arts Stance. While in the stance you are concentrating as if concentrating on a spell. The stance ends if you end it (no action required)or lose concentration.
I originally was naming these things like “Raging tiger stance” and “mountain stance” but realized that is the type of thing Monk is suppose to move away from. These haven’t been balanced at all. Just some stuff I came up with off the top of my head. I tried not to let any one out shine the other, or just be too strong in general. Some may need to be level locked. Unarmed focus is probably too good at level one but fine by 5th level.
Updated Martial Stance.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
HP based on 1d8+CON+WIS or 1d8+CON+WIS/2 modifier doesn't penalize us for being MAD, plays into the mind over body thing (make is so it doesn't work if you're wearing armor to prevent mulitclassing shenanigans or put it at level 3-5ish)
Rename Discipline to Focus, Give Focus points = monk level +WIS modifier or monk level +PB
Focus(Discipline) Save DC = 8+PB+WIS+DEX or 8+PB+WIS+DEX/2 or 8+PB+WIS/2+DEX/2 doesn't penalize us for being MAD, also fights back against the huge nerf to stunning strike
Stunning Strike now gives the Dazed condition on fail or Dazed condition on fail PB/SR or PB/LR.
Patient Defense is now a Reaction, or Patient Defense is Reaction and free PB/LR, or Patient Defense is free PB/LR
Give Monks access to martial feats - many require proficiency in some martial weapons
Keep the Martial Arts die levels but have it work with weapons - Useless with Mastery now. Spears and Quaterstaffs are already 1d8 since we can't wield shields, others are big DPR nerf for an action.
Give Unarmed Strikes Nick/Sap/Slow/Push Mastery choice 2 per day, pick at LR.