The monk is the most maligned class in D&D, a huge part of this problem is that Stunning Strike is currently so powerful that everything else in the class is mediocre, but at the same time it is difficult to get stick because it is effectively a death sentence to the target since everyone can wail on them and they are helpless to resist. Thus it seems necessary to eliminate Stunning Strike in order to buff the rest of monk to create a more balanced class with multiple powerful combat options rather than a class whose combat is entirely built around Stunning Strike.
Interrupt (5th level) - a creature within your reach makes an attack you can spend 1 ki to make an attack on them using your reaction, if the attack hits the triggering attack automatically misses.
Neck Pinch (9th level) - 1/turn when you hit with an attack spend 1 ki, the target must make a Wis save or be paralyzed until the start of your next turn. If the target takes damage while paralyzed the paralysis immediately ends on them.
stunning strike isnt all that, there are a number of ways to make enemies ineffective for a round or longer.
most other classes choose other options over their ways to do this most of the time.
if they made stunning strike one option you could select out of a menu, and the menu contained MA dice+Mod. most people would not even attempt it often.
paladin has the old version of stunning strike as a smite option. the dmg difference is about 1 attacks worth.
I personally don't need stunning strike for my monk fantasy, but its not true that stunning strike is some godly power, its in the level 1 spell teir. and it costs monks universal resource.
the issue is they don't let monk choose what they want to do with this free action thing they can do each round.
imo.
stunning strike would become an option in a martial arts technique feature.
Once per round you can use a martial arts technique.
you learn more martial arts techniques as you level.
lvl 5 techniques;
stunning strike,
reactive stance. PB to AC until next round or you dodge an attack. enemy takes PB+MOD damage when they miss 1ki expended on dodge. doesnt use a reaction. (basically defensive duelist with damage rider)
Bonus round: 3ki One bonus action Patient Defense+Flurry of Blows+step of the wind
level 11 techniques
extra unarmed attack.
combo: deal +1 damage for every hit landed this round, up (+1 for first hit +2 for 2nd etc) up to five hits.
etc, the abilities can be whatever, these are just suggestions, the important part is to give baseline monk iconic mutually exclusive actions as options each round, instead of only really having stunning strike. As well as taking that power budget and using it in different ways.
Stunning strike is a legacy ability. Removing it is similar to removing fireball, eldritch blast, smite, Flurry of blows, or wildshape. You can change how often the monk can do it, you can change how it works but stunning strike isn’t going away.
I feel like all these options could be subclasses, to be honest.
EDIT: Apart from the fighter one. That should be base class, IMO.
problem with subclass solutions is it uses subclass power budget, not all subclasses will have them (most subclasses aren't up for redesign)
Yeah, in a wonderful utopia where classes and subclasses just worked as intended they’d all (apart from fighter) be subclass options. Or just like fighting styles or something.
Fireball and AoEs in general tho need nerfing. Stunning strike can be redesigned to only use ki/discipline point on success but target gets immunity for 10 turns to stunning strike at the end of a lost turn caused by stunning strike.
Monk I think also needs a few magic items too add +attack to unarmed attacks. Eg. Garbs of the Fist. Adds +1 bonus to unarmed attacks and gain +1AC against any creature you hit with an unarmed attack until the start of your next turn.
Additionally a few feats. Eg, surprising fist, after successfully stunning a creature with a weapon/unarmed attack or reducing a creature to 0 hp on your turn, gain an additional unarmed attack as a free action, you can only benefit from this once per turn. Monk really has nothing like PAM, SS, crossbow expert, etc.
Magic items they have said they will fix (I mean it's trivial to HB so it doesn't really matter, but sure.)
AoEs need to be more risky, I like the concept of AoE and how they give spellcasters a niche, but it should be WAY more likely to hit your own party with them than it is currently (in the games I've played in anyway).
Often times, I feel like you need to justify using anything else instead of stunning strike. Which means its a bad design. Screw legacy stuff. It it no longer works, then toss it aside and make the game more fun.
Weapon mastery is also a problem. trip/push every round for free? Monks need to spend Ki to do this with open hand subclass. Everyone basically gets the good parts for free
Often times, I feel like you need to justify using anything else instead of stunning strike. Which means its a bad design. Screw legacy stuff. It it no longer works, then toss it aside and make the game more fun.
Weapon mastery is also a problem. trip/push every round for free? Monks need to spend Ki to do this with open hand subclass. Everyone basically gets the good parts for free
there is no justification for not using stunning strike, because there is no other option.
the question isn't should I use stunning strike or something else, the question is do I want to do more this round or less. And since the monk is probably contributing less than other classes, the answer is probably I must do more.
it isnt that stunning strike is bad design, its the rest of monk thats bad design. If wizards could only do burning hands, everyone would do burning hands.
They have too little health, they don't get enough ki points at lower levels, and they basically can't use a good chunk of the magic items in the game.
The class has a number of other things that could be tweaked, but those 3 things are, to me at least, the main thing holding the class back. I've played with some high level monks, and they can pull off some really cool stuff. I remember constantly feeling jealous of the many things a Monk can do without even spending resources, not to mention the things they can do with Ki. However, whenever I've really seen the Monk shine is when they can comfortably spend at least 1 ki each round of combat, if not more. A low-level Monk gets gassed almost immediately... up 'til level 7 or so, you never have enough ki to do anything interesting, especially when you feel that any ki not spent on a Stunning Strike is basically wasted. However, once you get into higher levels, suddenly you have so many ki points that you don't even really need to think about them. The game does its best in that middle ground where you have enough ki to get creative, but not so much that ki management becomes a non-issue.
The Health problem, I think, is mostly solved by giving them a d10 hit die. Monk is one of the most MAD classes in the game... you need good DEX for your attacks and abilities, but your save for your features is based on your WIS, and you need both DEX and WIS for your AC. However, you also really, really need good CON, since you need that additional boost to your HP to compensate for your d8 hit die, since you're still a melee fighter. I feel like Step of the Wind and Patient Defense are intended as the features that allow for hit and run tactics to cover for this... but they both cost Ki, so you can't use them reliably... especially at lower levels, which is when you need these abilities the most.
They have too little health, they don't get enough ki points at lower levels, and they basically can't use a good chunk of the magic items in the game.
The class has a number of other things that could be tweaked, but those 3 things are, to me at least, the main thing holding the class back. I've played with some high level monks, and they can pull off some really cool stuff. I remember constantly feeling jealous of the many things a Monk can do without even spending resources, not to mention the things they can do with Ki. However, whenever I've really seen the Monk shine is when they can comfortably spend at least 1 ki each round of combat, if not more. A low-level Monk gets gassed almost immediately... up 'til level 7 or so, you never have enough ki to do anything interesting, especially when you feel that any ki not spent on a Stunning Strike is basically wasted. However, once you get into higher levels, suddenly you have so many ki points that you don't even really need to think about them. The game does its best in that middle ground where you have enough ki to get creative, but not so much that ki management becomes a non-issue.
The Health problem, I think, is mostly solved by giving them a d10 hit die. Monk is one of the most MAD classes in the game... you need good DEX for your attacks and abilities, but your save for your features is based on your WIS, and you need both DEX and WIS for your AC. However, you also really, really need good CON, since you need that additional boost to your HP to compensate for your d8 hit die, since you're still a melee fighter. I feel like Step of the Wind and Patient Defense are intended as the features that allow for hit and run tactics to cover for this... but they both cost Ki, so you can't use them reliably... especially at lower levels, which is when you need these abilities the most.
using step or patient defense means you will only make two attacks per round, and monk has no ways of increasing their base damage per hit. So even if they didnt cost Ki, they still would rarely be used.
Its actually the BA cost that makes them a no go, more than the ki.
most monks would pay 1 ki to get dodge or step, if they could still fob, or even make 1 BA attack.
They have too little health, they don't get enough ki points at lower levels, and they basically can't use a good chunk of the magic items in the game.
The class has a number of other things that could be tweaked, but those 3 things are, to me at least, the main thing holding the class back. I've played with some high level monks, and they can pull off some really cool stuff. I remember constantly feeling jealous of the many things a Monk can do without even spending resources, not to mention the things they can do with Ki. However, whenever I've really seen the Monk shine is when they can comfortably spend at least 1 ki each round of combat, if not more. A low-level Monk gets gassed almost immediately... up 'til level 7 or so, you never have enough ki to do anything interesting, especially when you feel that any ki not spent on a Stunning Strike is basically wasted. However, once you get into higher levels, suddenly you have so many ki points that you don't even really need to think about them. The game does its best in that middle ground where you have enough ki to get creative, but not so much that ki management becomes a non-issue.
The Health problem, I think, is mostly solved by giving them a d10 hit die. Monk is one of the most MAD classes in the game... you need good DEX for your attacks and abilities, but your save for your features is based on your WIS, and you need both DEX and WIS for your AC. However, you also really, really need good CON, since you need that additional boost to your HP to compensate for your d8 hit die, since you're still a melee fighter. I feel like Step of the Wind and Patient Defense are intended as the features that allow for hit and run tactics to cover for this... but they both cost Ki, so you can't use them reliably... especially at lower levels, which is when you need these abilities the most.
using step or patient defense means you will only make two attacks per round, and monk has no ways of increasing their base damage per hit. So even if they didnt cost Ki, they still would rarely be used.
Its actually the BA cost that makes them a no go, more than the ki.
most monks would pay 1 ki to get dodge or step, if they could still fob, or even make 1 BA attack.
i haven't been on the 'weapons mastery for fists' bandwagon, but imagine BA Flurry of Blows with ki points adding Sap (in lieu of Patient Defense). maybe adjust fist-Sap such that it's 'enemy that is attacked' rather than 'struck/hit/damaged' to better secure the disadvantage.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
So, right now in my current campaign one of the players is a Drunken Fighting Monk, which has a unique version of Flurry of Blows that gives them the effect of Disengage whenever they use their Flurry of Blows. It's done a lot to help them control the battlefield and, perhaps most importantly, feel like an agile, quick-moving martial artist while still being extremely effective in combat. We have a Rune Knight fighter in our group and the Monk is still, by and large, our best damage dealer if only for the sheer number of attacks he can output per turn. In the past I played with an Astral Self monk, who could reliably attack from outside of melee range and still move around a lot on the battlefield.
So I think that may have colored my view of the Monk, because the two versions I'm most familiar with have built-in methods for maintaining their ability to zip across the battlefield without worrying as much about Attacks of Opportunity. Neither of them are broken by any means, so I think making it easier to utilize those features across the board for Monks would do a lot to help them keep up, and even potentially outpace some of the other classes.
You guys have hit on a major play issue with monks - magic items. Everyone loves to get new gear. The entire games economy is about upgrading your character.
Monks miss out on soo much of that. virtually no weapons they can use, and no armor. The two biggest things in the game. It saps fun when you dont care that much about loot, cause what are you gonna get thats meaningful?
The two biggest things in the game. It saps fun when you dont care that much about loot, cause what are you gonna get thats meaningful?
A flame tongue shortsword, a cloak of displacement, bracers of defense, gloves of soul snatching, eldritch claw tattoo, dragonhide belt, brazier of commanding fire elementals, boots of flying, iron bands of billarro, figuring of wonderous power - golden lions, storm boomerang, sun blade.
The two biggest things in the game. It saps fun when you dont care that much about loot, cause what are you gonna get thats meaningful?
A flame tongue shortsword, a cloak of displacement, bracers of defense, gloves of soul snatching, eldritch claw tattoo, dragonhide belt, brazier of commanding fire elementals, boots of flying, iron bands of billarro, figuring of wonderous power - golden lions, storm boomerang, sun blade.
Attunement, can be used with greater effect by a fighter, attunement, attunement for the same benefit a fighter gets from a nonmagical shield, obscenely powerful (also attunement), attunement (the tattoo is good in fairness, but it’s not enough), stunning strike booster (also attunement), boots of flying are better on someone who actually has range, iron bands of bilarro can be used by anyone, as can figurines of wondrous power - sun blade can also be used more effectively by a fighter.
(cloak of displacement) can be used with greater effect by a fighter
Your entire list is "all of these examples don't count because I say so", but in reference to the Cloak of Displacement, this one is especially silly because between a Fighter and a Monk, one of these classes takes zero damage on successful Dexterity saves. And has a reaction to reduce and potentially nullify damage from ranged attacks. But somehow it's the Fighter who makes better use of it. Not because of anything the Fighter can do, no, just because Monk Bad thinking.
And for the Winged Boots, it's odd to suggest the class that gets the most movement speed of all classes wouldn't make the most use out of an item that's based off of movement speed, but I do agree other classes might make better use of the Winged Boots. Because, yanno, Monks can run up walls anyway.
Ah, formatting mistake for the first one. I meant the flame tongue shortsword would be better on a fighter. Cloak of displacement is really good, in general, but it overlaps with monk abilities. Monk needs items like fighter has to boost AC and attack damage rolls without attunement.
Monk is fine at getting in and out of range already. The issue is triggering opportunity attacks the whole time, imo. They also overlap, as you said, with monk’s pre-existing ability to take advantage of verticality.
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I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
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The monk is the most maligned class in D&D, a huge part of this problem is that Stunning Strike is currently so powerful that everything else in the class is mediocre, but at the same time it is difficult to get stick because it is effectively a death sentence to the target since everyone can wail on them and they are helpless to resist. Thus it seems necessary to eliminate Stunning Strike in order to buff the rest of monk to create a more balanced class with multiple powerful combat options rather than a class whose combat is entirely built around Stunning Strike.
Interrupt (5th level) - a creature within your reach makes an attack you can spend 1 ki to make an attack on them using your reaction, if the attack hits the triggering attack automatically misses.
Neck Pinch (9th level) - 1/turn when you hit with an attack spend 1 ki, the target must make a Wis save or be paralyzed until the start of your next turn. If the target takes damage while paralyzed the paralysis immediately ends on them.
I feel like all these options could be subclasses, to be honest.
EDIT: Apart from the fighter one. That should be base class, IMO.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
stunning strike isnt all that, there are a number of ways to make enemies ineffective for a round or longer.
most other classes choose other options over their ways to do this most of the time.
if they made stunning strike one option you could select out of a menu, and the menu contained MA dice+Mod. most people would not even attempt it often.
paladin has the old version of stunning strike as a smite option. the dmg difference is about 1 attacks worth.
I personally don't need stunning strike for my monk fantasy, but its not true that stunning strike is some godly power, its in the level 1 spell teir. and it costs monks universal resource.
the issue is they don't let monk choose what they want to do with this free action thing they can do each round.
imo.
stunning strike would become an option in a martial arts technique feature.
Once per round you can use a martial arts technique.
you learn more martial arts techniques as you level.
lvl 5 techniques;
stunning strike,
reactive stance. PB to AC until next round or you dodge an attack. enemy takes PB+MOD damage when they miss 1ki expended on dodge. doesnt use a reaction. (basically defensive duelist with damage rider)
Bonus round: 3ki One bonus action Patient Defense+Flurry of Blows+step of the wind
level 11 techniques
extra unarmed attack.
combo: deal +1 damage for every hit landed this round, up (+1 for first hit +2 for 2nd etc) up to five hits.
etc, the abilities can be whatever, these are just suggestions, the important part is to give baseline monk iconic mutually exclusive actions as options each round, instead of only really having stunning strike. As well as taking that power budget and using it in different ways.
problem with subclass solutions is it uses subclass power budget, not all subclasses will have them (most subclasses aren't up for redesign)
thats actually a pretty good idea Lillith.
Stunning strike is a legacy ability. Removing it is similar to removing fireball, eldritch blast, smite, Flurry of blows, or wildshape. You can change how often the monk can do it, you can change how it works but stunning strike isn’t going away.
Yeah, in a wonderful utopia where classes and subclasses just worked as intended they’d all (apart from fighter) be subclass options. Or just like fighting styles or something.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Fireball and AoEs in general tho need nerfing. Stunning strike can be redesigned to only use ki/discipline point on success but target gets immunity for 10 turns to stunning strike at the end of a lost turn caused by stunning strike.
Monk I think also needs a few magic items too add +attack to unarmed attacks. Eg. Garbs of the Fist. Adds +1 bonus to unarmed attacks and gain +1AC against any creature you hit with an unarmed attack until the start of your next turn.
Additionally a few feats. Eg, surprising fist, after successfully stunning a creature with a weapon/unarmed attack or reducing a creature to 0 hp on your turn, gain an additional unarmed attack as a free action, you can only benefit from this once per turn. Monk really has nothing like PAM, SS, crossbow expert, etc.
Magic items they have said they will fix (I mean it's trivial to HB so it doesn't really matter, but sure.)
AoEs need to be more risky, I like the concept of AoE and how they give spellcasters a niche, but it should be WAY more likely to hit your own party with them than it is currently (in the games I've played in anyway).
Often times, I feel like you need to justify using anything else instead of stunning strike. Which means its a bad design. Screw legacy stuff. It it no longer works, then toss it aside and make the game more fun.
Weapon mastery is also a problem. trip/push every round for free? Monks need to spend Ki to do this with open hand subclass. Everyone basically gets the good parts for free
there is no justification for not using stunning strike, because there is no other option.
the question isn't should I use stunning strike or something else, the question is do I want to do more this round or less. And since the monk is probably contributing less than other classes, the answer is probably I must do more.
it isnt that stunning strike is bad design, its the rest of monk thats bad design. If wizards could only do burning hands, everyone would do burning hands.
Here's the things I think are wrong with Monks...
They have too little health, they don't get enough ki points at lower levels, and they basically can't use a good chunk of the magic items in the game.
The class has a number of other things that could be tweaked, but those 3 things are, to me at least, the main thing holding the class back. I've played with some high level monks, and they can pull off some really cool stuff. I remember constantly feeling jealous of the many things a Monk can do without even spending resources, not to mention the things they can do with Ki. However, whenever I've really seen the Monk shine is when they can comfortably spend at least 1 ki each round of combat, if not more. A low-level Monk gets gassed almost immediately... up 'til level 7 or so, you never have enough ki to do anything interesting, especially when you feel that any ki not spent on a Stunning Strike is basically wasted. However, once you get into higher levels, suddenly you have so many ki points that you don't even really need to think about them. The game does its best in that middle ground where you have enough ki to get creative, but not so much that ki management becomes a non-issue.
The Health problem, I think, is mostly solved by giving them a d10 hit die. Monk is one of the most MAD classes in the game... you need good DEX for your attacks and abilities, but your save for your features is based on your WIS, and you need both DEX and WIS for your AC. However, you also really, really need good CON, since you need that additional boost to your HP to compensate for your d8 hit die, since you're still a melee fighter. I feel like Step of the Wind and Patient Defense are intended as the features that allow for hit and run tactics to cover for this... but they both cost Ki, so you can't use them reliably... especially at lower levels, which is when you need these abilities the most.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Someway to bump ac inherent in the class regardless of stats.
using step or patient defense means you will only make two attacks per round, and monk has no ways of increasing their base damage per hit. So even if they didnt cost Ki, they still would rarely be used.
Its actually the BA cost that makes them a no go, more than the ki.
most monks would pay 1 ki to get dodge or step, if they could still fob, or even make 1 BA attack.
i haven't been on the 'weapons mastery for fists' bandwagon, but imagine BA Flurry of Blows with ki points adding Sap (in lieu of Patient Defense). maybe adjust fist-Sap such that it's 'enemy that is attacked' rather than 'struck/hit/damaged' to better secure the disadvantage.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
So, right now in my current campaign one of the players is a Drunken Fighting Monk, which has a unique version of Flurry of Blows that gives them the effect of Disengage whenever they use their Flurry of Blows. It's done a lot to help them control the battlefield and, perhaps most importantly, feel like an agile, quick-moving martial artist while still being extremely effective in combat. We have a Rune Knight fighter in our group and the Monk is still, by and large, our best damage dealer if only for the sheer number of attacks he can output per turn. In the past I played with an Astral Self monk, who could reliably attack from outside of melee range and still move around a lot on the battlefield.
So I think that may have colored my view of the Monk, because the two versions I'm most familiar with have built-in methods for maintaining their ability to zip across the battlefield without worrying as much about Attacks of Opportunity. Neither of them are broken by any means, so I think making it easier to utilize those features across the board for Monks would do a lot to help them keep up, and even potentially outpace some of the other classes.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
You guys have hit on a major play issue with monks - magic items. Everyone loves to get new gear. The entire games economy is about upgrading your character.
Monks miss out on soo much of that. virtually no weapons they can use, and no armor. The two biggest things in the game. It saps fun when you dont care that much about loot, cause what are you gonna get thats meaningful?
A flame tongue shortsword, a cloak of displacement, bracers of defense, gloves of soul snatching, eldritch claw tattoo, dragonhide belt, brazier of commanding fire elementals, boots of flying, iron bands of billarro, figuring of wonderous power - golden lions, storm boomerang, sun blade.
Attunement, can be used with greater effect by a fighter, attunement, attunement for the same benefit a fighter gets from a nonmagical shield, obscenely powerful (also attunement), attunement (the tattoo is good in fairness, but it’s not enough), stunning strike booster (also attunement), boots of flying are better on someone who actually has range, iron bands of bilarro can be used by anyone, as can figurines of wondrous power - sun blade can also be used more effectively by a fighter.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Ah, formatting mistake for the first one. I meant the flame tongue shortsword would be better on a fighter. Cloak of displacement is really good, in general, but it overlaps with monk abilities. Monk needs items like fighter has to boost AC and attack damage rolls without attunement.
Monk is fine at getting in and out of range already. The issue is triggering opportunity attacks the whole time, imo. They also overlap, as you said, with monk’s pre-existing ability to take advantage of verticality.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.