I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
That's precisely it. It has no place. It's either for theory crafting abuse, or it's for the gamer that would literally wait 120 days in game, OR, if you actually think about it, 120 days is a period of time I just don't foresee as a reasonablish length of time to have anything take within story.
So is it broken or unusable? Either way, it's trash. And there's just no in between.
Avoid a party TPK? Like...how is that even remotely workable? Think about it. Your ONE caster survives because of clone.... Great... Everyone else had to reroll stats.
Or are you going to try and amass everything for 4-6 instances of clone, wait the 120 days still, THEN face the BBEG?
Sorry charlie, while you were incubating your save point, the world ended.
It just has no use player side.
Maybe your DM can use it for your BBEG to use, especially since I'm pretty sure it's a necromancy spell but why would you ever offer this to a player?
The way to make healing spells more impactful in combat is simple. Instead of adding the die when they upcast you add the max roll of the die. So level 1 cure wounds heals 1d8+ Spell casting modifier, level 2 cure wounds 1d8+ 8+ Spellcasting Modifier. When upcasting healing spells guarantee an amount of healing it doesn’t feel as bad. 2d8+4 could end up being 6 but 1d8+ 8+ 4 at least guarantees 13 and give you a much higher odds of getting the full 20.
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
That's precisely it. It has no place. It's either for theory crafting abuse, or it's for the gamer that would literally wait 120 days in game, OR, if you actually think about it, 120 days is a period of time I just don't foresee as a reasonablish length of time to have anything take within story.
So is it broken or unusable? Either way, it's trash. And there's just no in between.
Avoid a party TPK? Like...how is that even remotely workable? Think about it. Your ONE caster survives because of clone.... Great... Everyone else had to reroll stats.
Or are you going to try and amass everything for 4-6 instances of clone, wait the 120 days still, THEN face the BBEG?
Sorry charlie, while you were incubating your save point, the world ended.
It just has no use player side.
Maybe your DM can use it for your BBEG to use, especially since I'm pretty sure it's a necromancy spell but why would you ever offer this to a player?
It would depend on the game, really.
I've run some games where clones would be freaking super useful, and others where it wouldn't even be a concern or a need. Going up against tiamat? Well, that downtime the party takes to prepare could include that. Since it can be of anyone, get a bunch of vessels and set them aside in the base for the whole party.
totally dependent on play style, though, I'll grant.
Also, in terms of a three sentence backstory (see the thread in story and lore), the "i awoke in the vat of goo and knew the worst had happened, that all my friends were dead, and I was the only survivor." is a hell of a start, lol.
As for simulacrum...
Another case of ignoring the rules. it isn't an independent entity, so it has to be told everything to do (and "attack" is not a full direction) and being an illusory being, dispel magic or dispel illusion will wipe it out, turning it back into ice or snow. you can't give mass commands because it has to be spoken to directly, so even the "wishing for it" thing is useless, imo.
But, also a whole thing about style of play.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
That's precisely it. It has no place. It's either for theory crafting abuse, or it's for the gamer that would literally wait 120 days in game, OR, if you actually think about it, 120 days is a period of time I just don't foresee as a reasonablish length of time to have anything take within story.
So is it broken or unusable? Either way, it's trash. And there's just no in between.
Avoid a party TPK? Like...how is that even remotely workable? Think about it. Your ONE caster survives because of clone.... Great... Everyone else had to reroll stats.
Or are you going to try and amass everything for 4-6 instances of clone, wait the 120 days still, THEN face the BBEG?
Sorry charlie, while you were incubating your save point, the world ended.
It just has no use player side.
Maybe your DM can use it for your BBEG to use, especially since I'm pretty sure it's a necromancy spell but why would you ever offer this to a player?
wish can copy clone instantly, but then the question becomes how it does this. Does it conjure the vessel for it, or do you need the vessel to hold the clone beforehand? That sort of loopiness that wish is known for.
The clone does still need the 120 day incubation period if you use wish for it though, if I'm not mistaken.
There's another problem with that, though -- while wish may copy the vessel, it doesn't copy the target soul. if it did, the target would die and be a clone -- although a wicked, evil, cruel, capricious, heartless DM might whisper that what really happens is that the soul of the target is *shattered into a number of fragments, and since noen are able to sustain the shell, they all die*.
*tries very hard to look innocent, good, kind, constant, and loving*
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
That's precisely it. It has no place. It's either for theory crafting abuse, or it's for the gamer that would literally wait 120 days in game, OR, if you actually think about it, 120 days is a period of time I just don't foresee as a reasonablish length of time to have anything take within story.
So is it broken or unusable? Either way, it's trash. And there's just no in between.
Avoid a party TPK? Like...how is that even remotely workable? Think about it. Your ONE caster survives because of clone.... Great... Everyone else had to reroll stats.
Or are you going to try and amass everything for 4-6 instances of clone, wait the 120 days still, THEN face the BBEG?
Sorry charlie, while you were incubating your save point, the world ended.
It just has no use player side.
Maybe your DM can use it for your BBEG to use, especially since I'm pretty sure it's a necromancy spell but why would you ever offer this to a player?
You can use clone on your party, but even if its only on the wizard they can get enough of the party members back to resurrect them.
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
That's precisely it. It has no place. It's either for theory crafting abuse, or it's for the gamer that would literally wait 120 days in game, OR, if you actually think about it, 120 days is a period of time I just don't foresee as a reasonablish length of time to have anything take within story.
So is it broken or unusable? Either way, it's trash. And there's just no in between.
Avoid a party TPK? Like...how is that even remotely workable? Think about it. Your ONE caster survives because of clone.... Great... Everyone else had to reroll stats.
Or are you going to try and amass everything for 4-6 instances of clone, wait the 120 days still, THEN face the BBEG?
Sorry charlie, while you were incubating your save point, the world ended.
It just has no use player side.
Maybe your DM can use it for your BBEG to use, especially since I'm pretty sure it's a necromancy spell but why would you ever offer this to a player?
It would depend on the game, really.
I've run some games where clones would be freaking super useful, and others where it wouldn't even be a concern or a need. Going up against tiamat? Well, that downtime the party takes to prepare could include that. Since it can be of anyone, get a bunch of vessels and set them aside in the base for the whole party.
totally dependent on play style, though, I'll grant.
Also, in terms of a three sentence backstory (see the thread in story and lore), the "i awoke in the vat of goo and knew the worst had happened, that all my friends were dead, and I was the only survivor." is a hell of a start, lol.
As for simulacrum...
Another case of ignoring the rules. it isn't an independent entity, so it has to be told everything to do (and "attack" is not a full direction) and being an illusory being, dispel magic or dispel illusion will wipe it out, turning it back into ice or snow. you can't give mass commands because it has to be spoken to directly, so even the "wishing for it" thing is useless, imo.
But, also a whole thing about style of play.
Ok, but in what context are you going against tiamat? For funsies? Or does she have an evil plan? Once she takes you out,is she just going to put these plans on hold for 120 days? Or is she supposed to put these plans she has on hold for 120 days before you face off against her?
It's the argument that people are currently having about short rests/long rests right outside the door of the BBEG and why short rests are apparently unusable and so on....Except instead of debating 15 minutes versus a half an hour, you're talking A THIRD OF A FREAKING YEAR...
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
Yeah Clone just gives you (and your fellow party members if you choose to do it on them too) extra lives. There aren't a whole lot of mechanics in the game that straight up give you extra lives. But it's one of those spells that don't really work out for the whole party unless you give a lot of downtime or do a time skip or something of that nature.
Clone is excellent for a BBEG though, because they can have one or many clones locked away in storage, and the party has to find those to take the BBEG down permanently.
There are a whole lot of mechanics that that only get handled by a narrow range of things. Something being rare does not means it breaks the game. If you are playing to 15th+ level I kind of suspect its a full on campaign and not a constant race against time. So downtime is likely. But if not well so be it its not great in that campaign. There are tons of spells and abilities that don't work well in certain campaigns.
If it does not break the game but is only rarely useful, is more useful for the BBEG, only useful in certain styles of games but is not broken I just don't see the need to remove it unless page count is some huge issue in one.
I'm all for nerfing things for balance reasons, but not removing things just because people don't see the need in their particular game.
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
That's precisely it. It has no place. It's either for theory crafting abuse, or it's for the gamer that would literally wait 120 days in game, OR, if you actually think about it, 120 days is a period of time I just don't foresee as a reasonablish length of time to have anything take within story.
So is it broken or unusable? Either way, it's trash. And there's just no in between.
Avoid a party TPK? Like...how is that even remotely workable? Think about it. Your ONE caster survives because of clone.... Great... Everyone else had to reroll stats.
Or are you going to try and amass everything for 4-6 instances of clone, wait the 120 days still, THEN face the BBEG?
Sorry charlie, while you were incubating your save point, the world ended.
It just has no use player side.
Maybe your DM can use it for your BBEG to use, especially since I'm pretty sure it's a necromancy spell but why would you ever offer this to a player?
It would depend on the game, really.
I've run some games where clones would be freaking super useful, and others where it wouldn't even be a concern or a need. Going up against tiamat? Well, that downtime the party takes to prepare could include that. Since it can be of anyone, get a bunch of vessels and set them aside in the base for the whole party.
totally dependent on play style, though, I'll grant.
Also, in terms of a three sentence backstory (see the thread in story and lore), the "i awoke in the vat of goo and knew the worst had happened, that all my friends were dead, and I was the only survivor." is a hell of a start, lol.
As for simulacrum...
Another case of ignoring the rules. it isn't an independent entity, so it has to be told everything to do (and "attack" is not a full direction) and being an illusory being, dispel magic or dispel illusion will wipe it out, turning it back into ice or snow. you can't give mass commands because it has to be spoken to directly, so even the "wishing for it" thing is useless, imo.
But, also a whole thing about style of play.
Ok, but in what context are you going against tiamat? For funsies? Or does she have an evil plan? Once she takes you out,is she just going to put these plans on hold for 120 days? Or is she supposed to put these plans she has on hold for 120 days before you face off against her?
It's the argument that people are currently having about short rests/long rests right outside the door of the BBEG and why short rests are apparently unusable and so on....Except instead of debating 15 minutes versus a half an hour, you're talking A THIRD OF A FREAKING YEAR...
And? If its not useful in your games because it takes so long then its not breaking your game. So what is the issue. Do you just want to remove everything spell casters do other than damage.
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
That's precisely it. It has no place. It's either for theory crafting abuse, or it's for the gamer that would literally wait 120 days in game, OR, if you actually think about it, 120 days is a period of time I just don't foresee as a reasonablish length of time to have anything take within story.
So is it broken or unusable? Either way, it's trash. And there's just no in between.
Avoid a party TPK? Like...how is that even remotely workable? Think about it. Your ONE caster survives because of clone.... Great... Everyone else had to reroll stats.
Or are you going to try and amass everything for 4-6 instances of clone, wait the 120 days still, THEN face the BBEG?
Sorry charlie, while you were incubating your save point, the world ended.
It just has no use player side.
Maybe your DM can use it for your BBEG to use, especially since I'm pretty sure it's a necromancy spell but why would you ever offer this to a player?
wish can copy clone instantly, but then the question becomes how it does this. Does it conjure the vessel for it, or do you need the vessel to hold the clone beforehand? That sort of loopiness that wish is known for.
The clone does still need the 120 day incubation period if you use wish for it though, if I'm not mistaken.
And now you're engaging in that crazy broke s*** white room theory crafting that I just pointed out is why it's not a good spell, just to justify it and try and figure out how to get away from its detriment which is equally as absurd as its abilities.
As a method o chracter backstory, the spell itself doesn't need to exist or be cast.
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
That's precisely it. It has no place. It's either for theory crafting abuse, or it's for the gamer that would literally wait 120 days in game, OR, if you actually think about it, 120 days is a period of time I just don't foresee as a reasonablish length of time to have anything take within story.
So is it broken or unusable? Either way, it's trash. And there's just no in between.
Avoid a party TPK? Like...how is that even remotely workable? Think about it. Your ONE caster survives because of clone.... Great... Everyone else had to reroll stats.
Or are you going to try and amass everything for 4-6 instances of clone, wait the 120 days still, THEN face the BBEG?
Sorry charlie, while you were incubating your save point, the world ended.
It just has no use player side.
Maybe your DM can use it for your BBEG to use, especially since I'm pretty sure it's a necromancy spell but why would you ever offer this to a player?
It would depend on the game, really.
I've run some games where clones would be freaking super useful, and others where it wouldn't even be a concern or a need. Going up against tiamat? Well, that downtime the party takes to prepare could include that. Since it can be of anyone, get a bunch of vessels and set them aside in the base for the whole party.
totally dependent on play style, though, I'll grant.
Also, in terms of a three sentence backstory (see the thread in story and lore), the "i awoke in the vat of goo and knew the worst had happened, that all my friends were dead, and I was the only survivor." is a hell of a start, lol.
As for simulacrum...
Another case of ignoring the rules. it isn't an independent entity, so it has to be told everything to do (and "attack" is not a full direction) and being an illusory being, dispel magic or dispel illusion will wipe it out, turning it back into ice or snow. you can't give mass commands because it has to be spoken to directly, so even the "wishing for it" thing is useless, imo.
But, also a whole thing about style of play.
Ok, but in what context are you going against tiamat? For funsies? Or does she have an evil plan? Once she takes you out,is she just going to put these plans on hold for 120 days? Or is she supposed to put these plans she has on hold for 120 days before you face off against her?
It's the argument that people are currently having about short rests/long rests right outside the door of the BBEG and why short rests are apparently unusable and so on....Except instead of debating 15 minutes versus a half an hour, you're talking A THIRD OF A FREAKING YEAR...
Hey, I don't know.
I don't use tiamat, lol.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
And? If its not useful in your games because it takes so long then its not breaking your game. So what is the issue. Do you just want to remove everything spell casters do other than damage.
That's hyperbole. and we both know it. It has either broken or useless, and nobody likes useless so they try to use it for broken. That's why. If you want it for a DM spell, then that's a fine place for it. It's great narrative, but it has no place in the hands of players.
A lot of the top tier spells feel this way. It feels like "well, this seems problematic, but they never advance beyond level 14 so we'll just toss all this stuff here".
And level 20 play gets stupid as you break so many rules and bend reality.
Spells that do that are what I want gone. At least from player's hands. I like RP spells like prestidigitation, mend, message, etc. They add color to the world. I haven't in all of this said "remove those!" so why accuse me of that?
Another case of ignoring the rules. it isn't an independent entity, so it has to be told everything to do (and "attack" is not a full direction) and being an illusory being, dispel magic or dispel illusion will wipe it out, turning it back into ice or snow. you can't give mass commands because it has to be spoken to directly, so even the "wishing for it" thing is useless, imo.
Simulacrum 'can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature'. You're the one ignoring the rules in this case.
Simulacrum is a busted spell as written. Easy fix is that it just halves level, instead of halving hit points. That still works for its intended narrative purposes (which is mainly 'encounter a weaker version of the BBEG'), but isn't broken.
Also I have a question about an unrelated spell that hasn't been mentioned yet: sending.
Why does this 3rd-level spell that costs nothing but a 3rd-level slot and 6 seconds of your time have the ability to breach the veil between planes (with a 5% chance of failure, which means it's almost guaranteed to work anyway), when no other long-distance communication spell does this? dream can't do this, project image can't do this, and even telepathy (an 8th level spell!) can't do this.
Sending only last one round and is limited to 25 words. Telepathy lasts 24 hours and and can share words, images, sounds, and other sensory messages. Project Image is just a superior version of Major Image. Dream can do damage and make the target not benefit from any rest.
Because it's literally just a two or three sentence message, rather than sustained and instantaneous two-way communication.
Technically it's not just a 25 word message. This spell transmits your message across the planes to whoever it is, and then transmits that person's own 25 word message back to you across the planes if they decide to respond.
This also means btw that depending on how your cosmology handles the afterlife, you can potentially even use this spell to communicate in a limited way with the dead (as in, the actual person's spirit and not just a facsimile like speak with dead).
It's still memetically bad as much more than a "help me, Obi-wan Kenobi" message in a bottle type communication, and you'd have to twist RAW and RAI into a pretzel to argue that afterlife communication works.
It's still memetically bad as much more than a "help me, Obi-wan Kenobi" message in a bottle type communication, and you'd have to twist RAW and RAI into a pretzel to argue that afterlife communication works.
That's really a question of cosmology. 5e doesn't really talk about it, but based on 3e manual of the planes, a petitioner loses their memories of their life (I'm not aware of anything that links this to the Raven Queen and the Fortress of Memories, though it sounds plausible), which means (a) they might not qualify as a creature with which you are familiar, and (b) even if you can communicate, it's spectacularly useless. Still, I don't see any fundamental reason to disallow it if the cosmology matches.
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
Clone is world-breaking, not necessarily game-breaking. Clone is the ultimate immortality because the clone can be a younger version of the target. It makes no sense for liches to exist in a world with Clone as an easy to access spell. Likewise, there would be a huge demand from elderly wealthy people for hiring high level wizards to clone themselves in order to be young again. You should end up with a world of perpetual rulers who simply clone themselves over and over again.
I'm really fascinated by the hate for clone. A I don't die but lose my gear spell is that game breaking for people. Are TPKs that common for you at 15th+ level.
based on some of the things I have seen people describe here (I create a hundred clones of myself!) I think it is the whole ignoring of the actual wording of the spell entirely. it takes an hour to cast, requires 120 days for it to grow, and it is inert until the person it is a clone of dies, lol.
But i have seen folks talk abotu creating a bunch of clones of themselves and marching off to war and I am all "wtf?" but meh, not my game.
personally, I think it is a great spell.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
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Yeah I get simulacrum even without wish abuse for multiples of them as it destroys action economy. I'd drop that a level or drop its material components a lot and just have it make a commoner that looks like the target with enough of its memories that it has like a +10 bonus on deception checks to pretend its the target. But clone? i just don't get it. It literally just helps in event of a TPK.
That's precisely it. It has no place. It's either for theory crafting abuse, or it's for the gamer that would literally wait 120 days in game, OR, if you actually think about it, 120 days is a period of time I just don't foresee as a reasonablish length of time to have anything take within story.
So is it broken or unusable? Either way, it's trash. And there's just no in between.
Avoid a party TPK? Like...how is that even remotely workable? Think about it. Your ONE caster survives because of clone.... Great... Everyone else had to reroll stats.
Or are you going to try and amass everything for 4-6 instances of clone, wait the 120 days still, THEN face the BBEG?
Sorry charlie, while you were incubating your save point, the world ended.
It just has no use player side.
Maybe your DM can use it for your BBEG to use, especially since I'm pretty sure it's a necromancy spell but why would you ever offer this to a player?
The way to make healing spells more impactful in combat is simple. Instead of adding the die when they upcast you add the max roll of the die. So level 1 cure wounds heals 1d8+ Spell casting modifier, level 2 cure wounds 1d8+ 8+ Spellcasting Modifier. When upcasting healing spells guarantee an amount of healing it doesn’t feel as bad. 2d8+4 could end up being 6 but 1d8+ 8+ 4 at least guarantees 13 and give you a much higher odds of getting the full 20.
It would depend on the game, really.
I've run some games where clones would be freaking super useful, and others where it wouldn't even be a concern or a need. Going up against tiamat? Well, that downtime the party takes to prepare could include that. Since it can be of anyone, get a bunch of vessels and set them aside in the base for the whole party.
totally dependent on play style, though, I'll grant.
Also, in terms of a three sentence backstory (see the thread in story and lore), the "i awoke in the vat of goo and knew the worst had happened, that all my friends were dead, and I was the only survivor." is a hell of a start, lol.
As for simulacrum...
Another case of ignoring the rules. it isn't an independent entity, so it has to be told everything to do (and "attack" is not a full direction) and being an illusory being, dispel magic or dispel illusion will wipe it out, turning it back into ice or snow. you can't give mass commands because it has to be spoken to directly, so even the "wishing for it" thing is useless, imo.
But, also a whole thing about style of play.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
There's another problem with that, though -- while wish may copy the vessel, it doesn't copy the target soul. if it did, the target would die and be a clone -- although a wicked, evil, cruel, capricious, heartless DM might whisper that what really happens is that the soul of the target is *shattered into a number of fragments, and since noen are able to sustain the shell, they all die*.
*tries very hard to look innocent, good, kind, constant, and loving*
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
You can use clone on your party, but even if its only on the wizard they can get enough of the party members back to resurrect them.
Ok, but in what context are you going against tiamat? For funsies? Or does she have an evil plan? Once she takes you out,is she just going to put these plans on hold for 120 days? Or is she supposed to put these plans she has on hold for 120 days before you face off against her?
It's the argument that people are currently having about short rests/long rests right outside the door of the BBEG and why short rests are apparently unusable and so on....Except instead of debating 15 minutes versus a half an hour, you're talking A THIRD OF A FREAKING YEAR...
There are a whole lot of mechanics that that only get handled by a narrow range of things. Something being rare does not means it breaks the game. If you are playing to 15th+ level I kind of suspect its a full on campaign and not a constant race against time. So downtime is likely. But if not well so be it its not great in that campaign. There are tons of spells and abilities that don't work well in certain campaigns.
If it does not break the game but is only rarely useful, is more useful for the BBEG, only useful in certain styles of games but is not broken I just don't see the need to remove it unless page count is some huge issue in one.
I'm all for nerfing things for balance reasons, but not removing things just because people don't see the need in their particular game.
And? If its not useful in your games because it takes so long then its not breaking your game. So what is the issue. Do you just want to remove everything spell casters do other than damage.
And now you're engaging in that crazy broke s*** white room theory crafting that I just pointed out is why it's not a good spell, just to justify it and try and figure out how to get away from its detriment which is equally as absurd as its abilities.
As a method o chracter backstory, the spell itself doesn't need to exist or be cast.
Hey, I don't know.
I don't use tiamat, lol.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
That's hyperbole. and we both know it. It has either broken or useless, and nobody likes useless so they try to use it for broken. That's why. If you want it for a DM spell, then that's a fine place for it. It's great narrative, but it has no place in the hands of players.
A lot of the top tier spells feel this way. It feels like "well, this seems problematic, but they never advance beyond level 14 so we'll just toss all this stuff here".
And level 20 play gets stupid as you break so many rules and bend reality.
Spells that do that are what I want gone. At least from player's hands. I like RP spells like prestidigitation, mend, message, etc. They add color to the world. I haven't in all of this said "remove those!" so why accuse me of that?
Because it's literally just a two or three sentence message, rather than sustained and instantaneous two-way communication.
Simulacrum 'can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature'. You're the one ignoring the rules in this case.
Simulacrum is a busted spell as written. Easy fix is that it just halves level, instead of halving hit points. That still works for its intended narrative purposes (which is mainly 'encounter a weaker version of the BBEG'), but isn't broken.
Sending only last one round and is limited to 25 words. Telepathy lasts 24 hours and and can share words, images, sounds, and other sensory messages. Project Image is just a superior version of Major Image. Dream can do damage and make the target not benefit from any rest.
It's still memetically bad as much more than a "help me, Obi-wan Kenobi" message in a bottle type communication, and you'd have to twist RAW and RAI into a pretzel to argue that afterlife communication works.
That's really a question of cosmology. 5e doesn't really talk about it, but based on 3e manual of the planes, a petitioner loses their memories of their life (I'm not aware of anything that links this to the Raven Queen and the Fortress of Memories, though it sounds plausible), which means (a) they might not qualify as a creature with which you are familiar, and (b) even if you can communicate, it's spectacularly useless. Still, I don't see any fundamental reason to disallow it if the cosmology matches.
Clone is world-breaking, not necessarily game-breaking. Clone is the ultimate immortality because the clone can be a younger version of the target. It makes no sense for liches to exist in a world with Clone as an easy to access spell. Likewise, there would be a huge demand from elderly wealthy people for hiring high level wizards to clone themselves in order to be young again. You should end up with a world of perpetual rulers who simply clone themselves over and over again.