I think the simplest fix is to just to change which spells are castable in wild shape. Toss the ability to cast abjurations, people don't choose moon druid because they want to have fur while they're healing people, they choose moon druid because they want to turn into a bear and maul people. Instead, give them self-buffs and smite type spells.
This is why I tend to suggest Self and Touch ranged spells in Wildshape. Thematically it makes sense as assuming a bestial form focuses your magic into your body which might limit range. Mechanically it lets the druid maintain access to Absorb Elements, Jump, Longstrider, Barkskin, Stoneskin, Meld Into Stone, Fire Shield, and Guardian of Nature for defense and self-buffs while giving access to Thunderwave and Sunbeam on demand for when you want to get in a big AoE attack.
They could also change some druid spells to work on natural weapons. Flame Blade and Elemental Weapon would be nice damage-boosting spells. A giant crocodile with elemental teeth could be putting out 3D10+5 + 3D4 elemental weapon + 2D8 Primal Strike for damage and still have time in their multi-attack for another 2D8+5.
Or add some new spells to the druid list that specifically boost natural weapons. Lots of other classes are getting new and revised spells for their lists. Why not druid?
Which is why Bladesong buffs your concentration saves so you'll basically never lose concentration. I've got a Moon Druid with Resilient Con + Warcaster and I cannot remember the last time her concentration was broken on a spell.
Additionally, they could just give Moon Druids an advantage on concentration checks while in Wildshape form. It's a feature that is kind of necessary for any melee character meant to concentrate on spells anyway, and it'd free up feat slots for Moon Druid so they can take something more interesting.
I think the simplest fix is to just to change which spells are castable in wild shape. Toss the ability to cast abjurations, people don't choose moon druid because they want to have fur while they're healing people, they choose moon druid because they want to turn into a bear and maul people. Instead, give them self-buffs and smite type spells.
This is why I tend to suggest Self and Touch ranged spells in Wildshape. Thematically it makes sense as assuming a bestial form focuses your magic into your body which might limit range. Mechanically it lets the druid maintain access to Absorb Elements, Jump, Longstrider, Barkskin, Stoneskin, Meld Into Stone, Fire Shield, and Guardian of Nature for defense and self-buffs while giving access to Thunderwave and Sunbeam on demand for when you want to get in a big AoE attack.
They could also change some druid spells to work on natural weapons. Flame Blade and Elemental Weapon would be nice damage-boosting spells. A giant crocodile with elemental teeth could be putting out 3D10+5 + 3D4 elemental weapon + 2D8 Primal Strike for damage and still have time in their multi-attack for another 2D8+5.
Or add some new spells to the druid list that specifically boost natural weapons. Lots of other classes are getting new and revised spells for their lists. Why not druid?
Which is why Bladesong buffs your concentration saves so you'll basically never lose concentration. I've got a Moon Druid with Resilient Con + Warcaster and I cannot remember the last time her concentration was broken on a spell.
Additionally, they could just give Moon Druids an advantage on concentration checks while in Wildshape form. It's a feature that is kind of necessary for any melee character meant to concentrate on spells anyway, and it'd free up feat slots for Moon Druid so they can take something more interesting.
If the majority feel Druids need to cast while in Wild Shape I agree self and touch spells are a good restriction as long as it doesn’t have a material component with a gold cost, or that is consumed. That would be good fit on all druids.
Moon Druids need more reliable AC, HP, and attacks if they want them to venture into melee. In 5e it was an abundance of HP that allowed a Druid to just damage sponge. I can understand moving away from that.
3rd COMBAT WILD SHAPE. You have learned ancient techniques that allow you to channel the magic of the moon to bolster yourself while using Wild Shape, granting you the following benefits: Armor Class. When you assume a Wild Shape form, compare the Beast’s AC to 10+ Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus. While in that form, you use whichever AC is higher. Temporary Hit Points. When you assume a Wild Shape form that is not tiny, you gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to three times your Druid level. These temporary hit points go away when you assume your normal form. Shifting Forms. As long as you have the temporary hit points provided by this feature you may switch between your known Beast forms that are not tiny as a bonus action without expending a use of your Wild Shape Feature. Bestial Strikes. You can use you Spellcasting attack roll in place of any attack rolls in the beast stat block. You may also use your spell save DC in place of any save DC found in the beast stat block. Nature’s Regeneration. You can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d6+ Wisdom modifier hit points per level of the spell slot expended. Bestial Ravage. When you strike a target with an action from the beast stat block, you can empower the strike. Immediately after you hit a target with a melee attack roll using an Action from the beast stat block you can expend one Spell Slot to deal Force damage to the target. The damage is 4d4 for a 1st-level Spell Slot, plus 2d4 for each slot level higher than 1st. You can use Bestial Ravage no more than once during a turn. Bonus Forms. You know a number of additional Beast Forms equal to your Proficiency bonus.
I think the simplest fix is to just to change which spells are castable in wild shape. Toss the ability to cast abjurations, people don't choose moon druid because they want to have fur while they're healing people, they choose moon druid because they want to turn into a bear and maul people. Instead, give them self-buffs and smite type spells.
This is why I tend to suggest Self and Touch ranged spells in Wildshape. Thematically it makes sense as assuming a bestial form focuses your magic into your body which might limit range. Mechanically it lets the druid maintain access to Absorb Elements, Jump, Longstrider, Barkskin, Stoneskin, Meld Into Stone, Fire Shield, and Guardian of Nature for defense and self-buffs while giving access to Thunderwave and Sunbeam on demand for when you want to get in a big AoE attack.
They could also change some druid spells to work on natural weapons. Flame Blade and Elemental Weapon would be nice damage-boosting spells. A giant crocodile with elemental teeth could be putting out 3D10+5 + 3D4 elemental weapon + 2D8 Primal Strike for damage and still have time in their multi-attack for another 2D8+5.
Or add some new spells to the druid list that specifically boost natural weapons. Lots of other classes are getting new and revised spells for their lists. Why not druid?
Which is why Bladesong buffs your concentration saves so you'll basically never lose concentration. I've got a Moon Druid with Resilient Con + Warcaster and I cannot remember the last time her concentration was broken on a spell.
Additionally, they could just give Moon Druids an advantage on concentration checks while in Wildshape form. It's a feature that is kind of necessary for any melee character meant to concentrate on spells anyway, and it'd free up feat slots for Moon Druid so they can take something more interesting.
If the majority feel Druids need to cast while in Wild Shape I agree self and touch spells are a good restriction as long as it doesn’t have a material component with a gold cost, or that is consumed. That would be good fit on all druids.
Moon Druids need more reliable AC, HP, and attacks if they want them to venture into melee. In 5e it was an abundance of HP that allowed a Druid to just damage sponge. I can understand moving away from that.
3rd COMBAT WILD SHAPE. You have learned ancient techniques that allow you to channel the magic of the moon to bolster yourself while using Wild Shape, granting you the following benefits: Armor Class. When you assume a Wild Shape form, compare the Beast’s AC to 10+ Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus. While in that form, you use whichever AC is higher. Temporary Hit Points. When you assume a Wild Shape form that is not tiny, you gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to three times your Druid level. These temporary hit points go away when you assume your normal form. Shifting Forms. As long as you have the temporary hit points provided by this feature you may switch between your known Beast forms that are not tiny as a bonus action without expending a use of your Wild Shape Feature. Bestial Strikes. You can use you Spellcasting attack roll in place of any attack rolls in the beast stat block. You may also use your spell save DC in place of any save DC found in the beast stat block. Nature’s Regeneration. You can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d6+ Wisdom modifier hit points per level of the spell slot expended. Bestial Ravage. When you strike a target with an action from the beast stat block, you can empower the strike. Immediately after you hit a target with a melee attack roll using an Action from the beast stat block you can expend one Spell Slot to deal Force damage to the target. The damage is 4d4 for a 1st-level Spell Slot, plus 2d4 for each slot level higher than 1st. You can use Bestial Ravage no more than once during a turn. Bonus Forms. You know a number of additional Beast Forms equal to your Proficiency bonus.
I might make the Shifting Forms cost a spell slot as well (and be clear that it doesn't restore any lost temporary hit points). I might even allow them to go tiny in this case, however, then after going tiny (and losing the temp hit points due to this), they would no longer be able to shift without using another Wild Shape.
I'm definitely in favor of being able to convert spell slots into additional wild shape uses. That would allow us to re-enact scenes like Doric's escape in the D&D movie.
Yeah, I can see that mistake being made. Shifting Form does not replenish you temp HP it just allows you to change what beast form you are in while the original temp hp remain. It’s best uses would be switching for better attacks or mobility, but since it wouldn’t add temp hp I can’t justify charging a spell slot for the switch. Since they are giving bonus action Wild Shape to all Moon Druids Shifting forms just makes the Moon Druid the premier shapeshifter. Also the shift can’t happen after the temp hp are lost. So there are limits to how often it can happen in combat. As far as spell slots being able to give you more Wild Shapes I believe there should be a feature in the main class that can do that. That shouldn’t be exclusive to Moon Druid.
Yeah, I can see that mistake being made. Shifting Form does not replenish you temp HP it just allows you to change what beast form you are in while the original temp hp remain. It’s best uses would be switching for better attacks or mobility, but since it wouldn’t add temp hp I can’t justify charging a spell slot for the switch. Since they are giving bonus action Wild Shape to all Moon Druids Shifting forms just makes the Moon Druid the premier shapeshifter. Also the shift can’t happen after the temp hp are lost. So there are limits to how often it can happen in combat. As far as spell slots being able to give you more Wild Shapes I believe there should be a feature in the main class that can do that. That shouldn’t be exclusive to Moon Druid.
I guess in reality, I'd rather not have the limitation that you need to retain some temporary HP to be able to alter your wildshape, but I'd rather it did cost a spell slot (while not restoring any HP, temporary or otherwise, although like now another spell slot could be used to restore HP).
Yeah, I can see that mistake being made. Shifting Form does not replenish you temp HP it just allows you to change what beast form you are in while the original temp hp remain. It’s best uses would be switching for better attacks or mobility, but since it wouldn’t add temp hp I can’t justify charging a spell slot for the switch. Since they are giving bonus action Wild Shape to all Moon Druids Shifting forms just makes the Moon Druid the premier shapeshifter. Also the shift can’t happen after the temp hp are lost. So there are limits to how often it can happen in combat. As far as spell slots being able to give you more Wild Shapes I believe there should be a feature in the main class that can do that. That shouldn’t be exclusive to Moon Druid.
In another thread I basically suggested this same thing (admittedly without the temp HP limitation). Since all forms use the same HP pool now, rapidly shifting between forms no longer gives a raw power boost in the form of infinite HP. It just offers Moon Druid a ton of side grades that allow them to play with their shapeshifting more than the normal Wildshape limits would allow.
Wizards already suggested a similar ability in the first Druid UA, only there it was rapidly switching between caster form and beast form. Which I also see value in as it'd let druids shift out, cast a big spell, then return to their beast form without losing a very limited Wildshape use.
Personally, I think rapid, mostly resourceless shifting between forms would be both incredibly fun and easily the most thematic expression of what Moon Druids are all about. It is basically what made the old capstone so incredibly fun but without the side effect of making Moon Druids almost immortal.
FYI This is the complete list of spells that are "Touch" or "Self" on the druid spell list without gold value material components that you might want to cast in combat, with those not applicable to WS crossed out, and stars next to ones I've personally used or one of my players have used:
Absorb Elements* Barkskin* Contagion Cure Wounds* Draconic Transformation* Elemental Weapon Fire Shield* Flame Blade Flame Arrows Freedom of Movement* Guardian of Nature* Investiture of Flame/Ice/Stone/Wind Lesser Restoration* Jump Longstrider Magic Stone Plane Shift Primal Savagery* Primordial Ward Produce Flame* Protection from Energy Protection from Poison* Resistance Shapechange Shillelagh Tree Stride Warding Wind
Basically, this set of spells sucks and there are only 3, that I could actually see people using regularly in WS : Absorb Elements, Guardian of Nature, Fire Shield.
FYI This is the complete list of spells that are "Touch" or "Self" on the druid spell list without gold value material components that you might want to cast in combat, with those not applicable to WS crossed out, and stars next to ones I've personally used or one of my players have used:
Basically, this set of spells sucks and there are only 3, that I could actually see people using regularly in WS : Absorb Elements, Guardian of Nature, Fire Shield.
While it's true that a lot of the spells aren't particularly strong, the ones that are useful are pretty nice to have. Your spell list is obviously much stronger, but it's also a bunch of spells taken from other spell lists so I don't know how likely it is we'd actually get something like that.
I guess in reality, I'd rather not have the limitation that you need to retain some temporary HP to be able to alter your wildshape, but I'd rather it did cost a spell slot (while not restoring any HP, temporary or otherwise, although like now another spell slot could be used to restore HP).
If you spend a spell slot to Wildshape you should gain the temp hp, it’s equal to using a use of Wild Shape. All Druids should be able to use spell slots to recharge their Wild Shape uses, but Moon Druids would get new temp HP every time they used Wild Shape.
In another thread I basically suggested this same thing (admittedly without the temp HP limitation). Since all forms use the same HP pool now, rapidly shifting between forms no longer gives a raw power boost in the form of infinite HP. It just offers Moon Druid a ton of side grades that allow them to play with their shapeshifting more than the normal Wildshape limits would allow.
Wizards already suggested a similar ability in the first Druid UA, only there it was rapidly switching between caster form and beast form. Which I also see value in as it'd let druids shift out, cast a big spell, then return to their beast form without losing a very limited Wildshape use.
Personally, I think rapid, mostly resourceless shifting between forms would be both incredibly fun and easily the most thematic expression of what Moon Druids are all about. It is basically what made the old capstone so incredibly fun but without the side effect of making Moon Druids almost immortal.
My only fear with that is shifting between tiny forms and combat forms can provide some shenanigans that would annoy me as a DM. The only way I can think to easily fix it without the temporary hp mattering is to make it work based on size, but I’m not sure if that’s as fun or as useful. Shifting Forms- Your Wild Shape does not end until the time has expired or you use Wild Shape feature again. While your Wild Shape persist as a bonus action you my switch between your known beast forms and/or your normal form. The beast forms you become during a persisting Wild Shape must be of same size category as the first Beast Form you took.
My only fear with that is shifting between tiny forms and combat forms can provide some shenanigans that would annoy me as a DM. The only way I can think to easily fix it without the temporary hp mattering is to make it work based on size, but I’m not sure if that’s as fun or as useful. Shifting Forms- Your Wild Shape does not end until the time has expired or you use Wild Shape feature again. While your Wild Shape persist as a bonus action you my switch between your known beast forms and/or your normal form. The beast forms you become during a persisting Wild Shape must be of same size category as the first Beast Form you took.
I'm generally in favor of shenanigans, so switching from a tiny-sized rat to a huge-sized giant elk wouldn't bother me so long as the already existing size limitations are followed. You can't turn into something big if there's no space for it, for example. But if they're just outside I don't see the problem.
If you absolutely MUST have a size limit though, at least let it be within a threshold. Large can switch to Huge or Medium, Medium can become Small or Large, etc. There's a fair bit of size variance in each CR and it'd suck to not be able to swap from a cave bear to a giant constrictor snake for the grapple just because of a size category difference that doesn't matter much mechanically. That way if you're tiny for the sake of scouting you can only become Small.
FYI This is the complete list of spells that are "Touch" or "Self" on the druid spell list without gold value material components that you might want to cast in combat, with those not applicable to WS crossed out, and stars next to ones I've personally used or one of my players have used:
Basically, this set of spells sucks and there are only 3, that I could actually see people using regularly in WS : Absorb Elements, Guardian of Nature, Fire Shield.
While it's true that a lot of the spells aren't particularly strong, the ones that are useful are pretty nice to have. Your spell list is obviously much stronger, but it's also a bunch of spells taken from other spell lists so I don't know how likely it is we'd actually get something like that.
Land Druid already gets spell lists with a bunch of spells from other spell lists. Starry Druid gets a couple of spells from other lists, Spores gets a bunch of spells from other spell lists, and Wildfire gets a bunch of spells from other spell lists. The only subclasses that don't are Moon, Shepherd and Dreams.
So if the only way WS is allowed to be powerful is by spending spellslots to do so, they need to give them spells they'd actually want to cast in WS. However, TBH it kind of contradicts the whole design of Druid to have them casting a spell every round of combat to make WS effective. The druid spell list is massively dominated by concentration spells and those few blast spells they get that aren't concentration generally suck, so most druids I have DMed for never even get close to running out of spellslots in combat because they are generally just throwing up a concentration spell then using cantrips because their blast spells are usually not worth casting. But this means that Druids are incentivized to use their magic outside of combat far more than any other class, to solve all kinds of problems - which they are actually good at doing.
TBH it kind of contradicts the whole design of Druid to have them casting a spell every round of combat to make WS effective.
Who's proposing they need to cast spells/spend slots every turn? I doubt anyone is opposed to effects that have either a duration (1 minute, 10 minutes etc.), or last as long as the wildshape does.
The key thing for me is that boosting wildshape enough to compete fully with martials should come at some cost to the spellcasting so when the wildshape ends you don't just go back to being a full caster with full resources. The goal is to avoid a situation where either wildshaping is no longer really a choice (because you have the full advantages of both forms in one) or where you massively save resources as a caster by getting to be a Fighter (equivalent) for a while then change back like nothing happened.
While you could do this with curated spells, e.g- "you can cast hunter's mark, shield of faith or cure wounds (self) while wildshaped" (with other options later), I much prefer the "spend a slot for specific effects" approach rather than trying to leverage spells because it allows them to be tweaked specifically for wildshape with suitable scaling, and included within the combat wildshape rule itself. It also avoids the need to bring most likely non-Druid spells into the mix (since Druid's selection isn't the best for self-buffing).
Ditching the curated list in favour of "any spell without a material component" means wildshape becomes more like a way to boost spellcasting rather than the other way around, which I'm not a fan of at all, especially because it's arguably the strongest boost of any class, since you get extra HP, potentially extra AC, better physical attacks, special abilities etc. all rolled into one feature that doesn't require concentration and has a good number of uses. It also doesn't solve the problem with the Druid list not being the best for bolstering wildshape.
So if the only way WS is allowed to be powerful is by spending spellslots to do so, they need to give them spells they'd actually want to cast in WS. However, TBH it kind of contradicts the whole design of Druid to have them casting a spell every round of combat to make WS effective. The druid spell list is massively dominated by concentration spells and those few blast spells they get that aren't concentration generally suck, so most druids I have DMed for never even get close to running out of spellslots in combat because they are generally just throwing up a concentration spell then using cantrips because their blast spells are usually not worth casting. But this means that Druids are incentivized to use their magic outside of combat far more than any other class, to solve all kinds of problems - which they are actually good at doing.
Hm? Curious. In my experience, most druids end up splitting their magic between healing and creating different kinds of battlefield control to control the field tactically. Different strokes, I suppose.
I much prefer the "spend a slot for specific effects" approach rather than trying to leverage spells because it allows them to be tweaked specifically for wildshape with suitable scaling, and included within the combat wildshape rule itself.
The problem with this is the massive increase in complexity, when spells already have built in scaling and can do all kinds of specific effects. Duplicating a whole secondary system that has a separate scaling system, separate effects, and separate rules is counter to what the original goal of revising WS was: to simplify it so more people choose to play the class. The problem with using spells is that it isn't all that flavourful and risks stepping on the toes of the Paladin.
The problem with this is the massive increase in complexity, when spells already have built in scaling and can do all kinds of specific effects. Duplicating a whole secondary system that has a separate scaling system, separate effects, and separate rules is counter to what the original goal of revising WS was: to simplify it so more people choose to play the class. The problem with using spells is that it isn't all that flavourful and risks stepping on the toes of the Paladin.
Adding full spellcasting (which it currently doesn't have) isn't simplifying combat wildshape, it's making it more complex (to the tune of every spell you have prepared, or could prepare). A "spend a slot" ability on combat wildshape might be extra text, but if it's only say three options then that's simple, and it would be right there in the rules that you're currently following for wildshape anyway; no need for reference, no need for curated lists, no need for restrictions by component or magic school etc.
That's fully consistent with WotC's attempts to simplify wildshape, because the main thing they've tried to do is remove the giant lists of possibilities (the beast forms themselves) that require players to reference other sections (at least while playing, as they still need to when they gain new forms).
It's also not just about gaining effects, it's about gaining effects that the Druid spell list doesn't really have (aside from healing); it's not a great spell list for buffing your own melee prowess because that's not really what the Druid spell list is for, and even some of the spells that are okay for it don't work all that well with wildshape specifically. If you add spells for moon druid to do it, then that bolsters their non wildshape form as well, at which point you're not just improving wildshape. But what I want to do is augment my wildshape's attacks, not replace them with the same primal savagery I can do as a non-bear.
"Spend a slot" for specific effects can be targeted, requires no reference to anything else and can do exactly what it sets out to do (let the player make their wildshaping stronger) with less risk of any complications or possible future exploits as new spells are introduced. Keeping everything with the (combat) wildshape rules is arguably simpler, because that's all you need to worry about when using them.
This is why I prefer that solution. Will I be heartbroken if they get some form of spellcasting instead? Probably not, if it's done well enough, but it just isn't my preferred way to do it for the reasons above.
My only fear with that is shifting between tiny forms and combat forms can provide some shenanigans that would annoy me as a DM. The only way I can think to easily fix it without the temporary hp mattering is to make it work based on size, but I’m not sure if that’s as fun or as useful. Shifting Forms- Your Wild Shape does not end until the time has expired or you use Wild Shape feature again. While your Wild Shape persist as a bonus action you my switch between your known beast forms and/or your normal form. The beast forms you become during a persisting Wild Shape must be of same size category as the first Beast Form you took.
I'm generally in favor of shenanigans, so switching from a tiny-sized rat to a huge-sized giant elk wouldn't bother me so long as the already existing size limitations are followed. You can't turn into something big if there's no space for it, for example. But if they're just outside I don't see the problem.
If you absolutely MUST have a size limit though, at least let it be within a threshold. Large can switch to Huge or Medium, Medium can become Small or Large, etc. There's a fair bit of size variance in each CR and it'd suck to not be able to swap from a cave bear to a giant constrictor snake for the grapple just because of a size category difference that doesn't matter much mechanically. That way if you're tiny for the sake of scouting you can only become Small.
Nothing is ever a MUST, but if I was super locked in on the sizes you came up with a great compromise of one size category difference. I just fear the ability to switch from tiny scout utilities into full combat form with no cost might be too powerful for one subclass. It extends your Wild Shape use drastically, almost to the point that the resource expense becomes an afterthought by levels 5-6. Maybe cutting the ability to take your normal form is more important than worrying about what sizes the Druid can become. You will find any time I play around with design I typically add some limits. I think limits are more fun and balanced, but can also accept that sometimes I’m wrong and limit things too aggressively.
Land Druid already gets spell lists with a bunch of spells from other spell lists. Starry Druid gets a couple of spells from other lists, Spores gets a bunch of spells from other spell lists, and Wildfire gets a bunch of spells from other spell lists. The only subclasses that don't are Moon, Shepherd and Dreams.
So if the only way WS is allowed to be powerful is by spending spellslots to do so, they need to give them spells they'd actually want to cast in WS. However, TBH it kind of contradicts the whole design of Druid to have them casting a spell every round of combat to make WS effective. The druid spell list is massively dominated by concentration spells and those few blast spells they get that aren't concentration generally suck, so most druids I have DMed for never even get close to running out of spellslots in combat because they are generally just throwing up a concentration spell then using cantrips because their blast spells are usually not worth casting. But this means that Druids are incentivized to use their magic outside of combat far more than any other class, to solve all kinds of problems - which they are actually good at doing.
True, though those subclasses get a bunch of spells added to their list because they are spellcasting-focused specs. Moon Druid isn't about the spellcasting, it's about the shapeshifting. They just need some access to their spellcasting while in Wildshape, not necessarily a whole list of new and powerful spells. Though I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a list of cool, thematic spells for Moon Druidif that is the direction Wizards picked.
I never really considered Moon Druid to need to be spamming spell slots to be competitive, just using them at roughly the same pace other druids would be. A Moon Druid throwing up a buff on themselves and then re-casting that buff whenever they lose concentration is fine in my mind. If they can have some out-of-combat utility from their spells without sacrificing an entire use of Wildshape to resume caster form that is even better.
So a Moon Druid throwing up Barkskin (which needs another redesign to mesh with the temp HP mechanic they gave Moon Druid, this spell should not be redundant with temp HP from Combat Wildshape) so they can be as tanky as a Fighter or Barbarian is functional to me. Throw in the occasional use of Absorb Elements for surviving AoEs and the Moon Druid is expending a decent amount of resources to stay in the fight.
Nothing is ever a MUST, but if I was super locked in on the sizes you came up with a great compromise of one size category difference. I just fear the ability to switch from tiny scout utilities into full combat form with no cost might be too powerful for one subclass. It extends your Wild Shape use drastically, almost to the point that the resource expense becomes an afterthought by levels 5-6. Maybe cutting the ability to take your normal form is more important than worrying about what sizes the Druid can become. You will find any time I play around with design I typically add some limits. I think limits are more fun and balanced, but can also accept that sometimes I’m wrong and limit things too aggressively.
The way it's designed now actually changing shape isn't the reason you'd be burning Wildshape uses anyway. You're doing it for that sweet temp HP to keep you in the fight longer. So to my mind being able to get more out-of-combat utility from each use of Wildshape isn't necessarily a bad thing, as you'll want to use your extra uses to keep yourself alive when two or three guys with greataxes decide that focusing on you is their ideal move.
It's all a bit clunky. To be honest, I really hope they bring back Channel Nature. Having multiple different things tied to a single druid resource is much more clear and concise than having Wildshape both be a use for the resource and the name of the resource at the same time.
So you could burn Channel Nature to: - Wildshape. - Conjure Familiar. - Restore 1st level Spell Slots. - Restore Wildshape temp HP (Moon Druid Exclusive). - Activate Storm Form (Sea Druid Exclusive). - Utilize Land's Aid (Land Druid Exclusive). - Utilize Nature's Sanctuary (Land Druid Exclusive).
When you type it all up like this there's actually a fair amount of things Wildshape is used to do. It's way more comprehensive to just call it Nature Points or something.
... Also, listing it all out like this makes me realize that Land Druid actually has the most ways to use "Wildshape Uses" of any subclass. Kind'a weird.
Thanks for the OP to open the discussion. Generally speaking, I 100% support your general approach that the main problems with the 5e Moon Druid is that (a) its WS is OP at certain levels [but UP at other levels, hence (b)], and (b) WS doesn't scale gradually enough across levels. IMO these are the main problems that need to be addressed in order to improve the Moon Druid. Other changes are secondary, and must not negatively affect (a) and (b). So if (a) and (b) are fixed we don't need to add in more spells that the Moon Druid can cast during WS (but abjurations seems reasonable), etc. So IMO the only relevant discussion is the method for implementing (a) and (b). IMO the best method is tweaking the Moon Druid's WS CR - level table. For example, regardless of the level at which Moon Druid's can WS (BTW, IMO Moon Druid's should be able to WS at level 2 or even at level 1), the revised table would be something like the following:
The table doesn't show any levels after 10 because elementals are a better combat option than any CR 5+ beast.
I think once these changes are made to the Moon Druid level - beast CR table little or no changes need to be made to the other rules about WS, i.e., HP, AC, ability scores & their bonuses, feats, proficiencies, racial bonuses, need to be addressed.
This is why I tend to suggest Self and Touch ranged spells in Wildshape. Thematically it makes sense as assuming a bestial form focuses your magic into your body which might limit range. Mechanically it lets the druid maintain access to Absorb Elements, Jump, Longstrider, Barkskin, Stoneskin, Meld Into Stone, Fire Shield, and Guardian of Nature for defense and self-buffs while giving access to Thunderwave and Sunbeam on demand for when you want to get in a big AoE attack.
They could also change some druid spells to work on natural weapons. Flame Blade and Elemental Weapon would be nice damage-boosting spells. A giant crocodile with elemental teeth could be putting out 3D10+5 + 3D4 elemental weapon + 2D8 Primal Strike for damage and still have time in their multi-attack for another 2D8+5.
Or add some new spells to the druid list that specifically boost natural weapons. Lots of other classes are getting new and revised spells for their lists. Why not druid?
Additionally, they could just give Moon Druids an advantage on concentration checks while in Wildshape form. It's a feature that is kind of necessary for any melee character meant to concentrate on spells anyway, and it'd free up feat slots for Moon Druid so they can take something more interesting.
If the majority feel Druids need to cast while in Wild Shape I agree self and touch spells are a good restriction as long as it doesn’t have a material component with a gold cost, or that is consumed. That would be good fit on all druids.
Moon Druids need more reliable AC, HP, and attacks if they want them to venture into melee. In 5e it was an abundance of HP that allowed a Druid to just damage sponge. I can understand moving away from that.
3rd COMBAT WILD SHAPE.
You have learned ancient techniques that allow you to channel the magic of the moon to bolster yourself while using Wild Shape, granting you the following benefits:
Armor Class. When you assume a Wild Shape form, compare the Beast’s AC to 10+ Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus. While in that form, you use whichever AC is higher.
Temporary Hit Points. When you assume a Wild Shape form that is not tiny, you gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to three times your Druid level. These temporary hit points go away when you assume your normal form.
Shifting Forms. As long as you have the temporary hit points provided by this feature you may switch between your known Beast forms that are not tiny as a bonus action without expending a use of your Wild Shape Feature.
Bestial Strikes. You can use you Spellcasting attack roll in place of any attack rolls in the beast stat block. You may also use your spell save DC in place of any save DC found in the beast stat block.
Nature’s Regeneration. You can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d6+ Wisdom modifier hit points per level of the spell slot expended.
Bestial Ravage. When you strike a target with an action from the beast stat block, you can empower the strike. Immediately after you hit a target with a melee attack roll using an Action from the beast stat block you can expend one Spell Slot to deal Force damage to the target. The damage is 4d4 for a 1st-level Spell Slot, plus 2d4 for each slot level higher than 1st.
You can use Bestial Ravage no more than once during a turn.
Bonus Forms. You know a number of additional Beast Forms equal to your Proficiency bonus.
I might make the Shifting Forms cost a spell slot as well (and be clear that it doesn't restore any lost temporary hit points). I might even allow them to go tiny in this case, however, then after going tiny (and losing the temp hit points due to this), they would no longer be able to shift without using another Wild Shape.
I'm definitely in favor of being able to convert spell slots into additional wild shape uses. That would allow us to re-enact scenes like Doric's escape in the D&D movie.
Yeah, I can see that mistake being made. Shifting Form does not replenish you temp HP it just allows you to change what beast form you are in while the original temp hp remain. It’s best uses would be switching for better attacks or mobility, but since it wouldn’t add temp hp I can’t justify charging a spell slot for the switch. Since they are giving bonus action Wild Shape to all Moon Druids Shifting forms just makes the Moon Druid the premier shapeshifter. Also the shift can’t happen after the temp hp are lost. So there are limits to how often it can happen in combat. As far as spell slots being able to give you more Wild Shapes I believe there should be a feature in the main class that can do that. That shouldn’t be exclusive to Moon Druid.
I guess in reality, I'd rather not have the limitation that you need to retain some temporary HP to be able to alter your wildshape, but I'd rather it did cost a spell slot (while not restoring any HP, temporary or otherwise, although like now another spell slot could be used to restore HP).
In another thread I basically suggested this same thing (admittedly without the temp HP limitation). Since all forms use the same HP pool now, rapidly shifting between forms no longer gives a raw power boost in the form of infinite HP. It just offers Moon Druid a ton of side grades that allow them to play with their shapeshifting more than the normal Wildshape limits would allow.
Wizards already suggested a similar ability in the first Druid UA, only there it was rapidly switching between caster form and beast form. Which I also see value in as it'd let druids shift out, cast a big spell, then return to their beast form without losing a very limited Wildshape use.
Personally, I think rapid, mostly resourceless shifting between forms would be both incredibly fun and easily the most thematic expression of what Moon Druids are all about. It is basically what made the old capstone so incredibly fun but without the side effect of making Moon Druids almost immortal.
FYI This is the complete list of spells that are "Touch" or "Self" on the druid spell list without gold value material components that you might want to cast in combat, with those not applicable to WS crossed out, and stars next to ones I've personally used or one of my players have used:
Absorb Elements*
Barkskin*
Contagion
Cure Wounds*
Draconic Transformation*
Elemental WeaponFire Shield*
Flame BladeFlame Arrows
Freedom of Movement*
Guardian of Nature*
Investiture of Flame/Ice/Stone/Wind
Lesser Restoration*
Jump
Longstrider
Magic Stone
Plane ShiftPrimal Savagery*
Primordial Ward
Produce Flame*
Protection from Energy
Protection from Poison*
Resistance
Shapechange
ShillelaghTree Stride
Warding Wind
Basically, this set of spells sucks and there are only 3, that I could actually see people using regularly in WS : Absorb Elements, Guardian of Nature, Fire Shield.
While it's true that a lot of the spells aren't particularly strong, the ones that are useful are pretty nice to have. Your spell list is obviously much stronger, but it's also a bunch of spells taken from other spell lists so I don't know how likely it is we'd actually get something like that.
If you spend a spell slot to Wildshape you should gain the temp hp, it’s equal to using a use of Wild Shape. All Druids should be able to use spell slots to recharge their Wild Shape uses, but Moon Druids would get new temp HP every time they used Wild Shape.
My only fear with that is shifting between tiny forms and combat forms can provide some shenanigans that would annoy me as a DM. The only way I can think to easily fix it without the temporary hp mattering is to make it work based on size, but I’m not sure if that’s as fun or as useful.
Shifting Forms- Your Wild Shape does not end until the time has expired or you use Wild Shape feature again. While your Wild Shape persist as a bonus action you my switch between your known beast forms and/or your normal form. The beast forms you become during a persisting Wild Shape must be of same size category as the first Beast Form you took.
I'm generally in favor of shenanigans, so switching from a tiny-sized rat to a huge-sized giant elk wouldn't bother me so long as the already existing size limitations are followed. You can't turn into something big if there's no space for it, for example. But if they're just outside I don't see the problem.
If you absolutely MUST have a size limit though, at least let it be within a threshold. Large can switch to Huge or Medium, Medium can become Small or Large, etc. There's a fair bit of size variance in each CR and it'd suck to not be able to swap from a cave bear to a giant constrictor snake for the grapple just because of a size category difference that doesn't matter much mechanically. That way if you're tiny for the sake of scouting you can only become Small.
Land Druid already gets spell lists with a bunch of spells from other spell lists. Starry Druid gets a couple of spells from other lists, Spores gets a bunch of spells from other spell lists, and Wildfire gets a bunch of spells from other spell lists. The only subclasses that don't are Moon, Shepherd and Dreams.
So if the only way WS is allowed to be powerful is by spending spellslots to do so, they need to give them spells they'd actually want to cast in WS. However, TBH it kind of contradicts the whole design of Druid to have them casting a spell every round of combat to make WS effective. The druid spell list is massively dominated by concentration spells and those few blast spells they get that aren't concentration generally suck, so most druids I have DMed for never even get close to running out of spellslots in combat because they are generally just throwing up a concentration spell then using cantrips because their blast spells are usually not worth casting. But this means that Druids are incentivized to use their magic outside of combat far more than any other class, to solve all kinds of problems - which they are actually good at doing.
Who's proposing they need to cast spells/spend slots every turn? I doubt anyone is opposed to effects that have either a duration (1 minute, 10 minutes etc.), or last as long as the wildshape does.
The key thing for me is that boosting wildshape enough to compete fully with martials should come at some cost to the spellcasting so when the wildshape ends you don't just go back to being a full caster with full resources. The goal is to avoid a situation where either wildshaping is no longer really a choice (because you have the full advantages of both forms in one) or where you massively save resources as a caster by getting to be a Fighter (equivalent) for a while then change back like nothing happened.
While you could do this with curated spells, e.g- "you can cast hunter's mark, shield of faith or cure wounds (self) while wildshaped" (with other options later), I much prefer the "spend a slot for specific effects" approach rather than trying to leverage spells because it allows them to be tweaked specifically for wildshape with suitable scaling, and included within the combat wildshape rule itself. It also avoids the need to bring most likely non-Druid spells into the mix (since Druid's selection isn't the best for self-buffing).
Ditching the curated list in favour of "any spell without a material component" means wildshape becomes more like a way to boost spellcasting rather than the other way around, which I'm not a fan of at all, especially because it's arguably the strongest boost of any class, since you get extra HP, potentially extra AC, better physical attacks, special abilities etc. all rolled into one feature that doesn't require concentration and has a good number of uses. It also doesn't solve the problem with the Druid list not being the best for bolstering wildshape.
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Hm? Curious. In my experience, most druids end up splitting their magic between healing and creating different kinds of battlefield control to control the field tactically. Different strokes, I suppose.
The problem with this is the massive increase in complexity, when spells already have built in scaling and can do all kinds of specific effects. Duplicating a whole secondary system that has a separate scaling system, separate effects, and separate rules is counter to what the original goal of revising WS was: to simplify it so more people choose to play the class. The problem with using spells is that it isn't all that flavourful and risks stepping on the toes of the Paladin.
Adding full spellcasting (which it currently doesn't have) isn't simplifying combat wildshape, it's making it more complex (to the tune of every spell you have prepared, or could prepare). A "spend a slot" ability on combat wildshape might be extra text, but if it's only say three options then that's simple, and it would be right there in the rules that you're currently following for wildshape anyway; no need for reference, no need for curated lists, no need for restrictions by component or magic school etc.
That's fully consistent with WotC's attempts to simplify wildshape, because the main thing they've tried to do is remove the giant lists of possibilities (the beast forms themselves) that require players to reference other sections (at least while playing, as they still need to when they gain new forms).
It's also not just about gaining effects, it's about gaining effects that the Druid spell list doesn't really have (aside from healing); it's not a great spell list for buffing your own melee prowess because that's not really what the Druid spell list is for, and even some of the spells that are okay for it don't work all that well with wildshape specifically. If you add spells for moon druid to do it, then that bolsters their non wildshape form as well, at which point you're not just improving wildshape. But what I want to do is augment my wildshape's attacks, not replace them with the same primal savagery I can do as a non-bear.
"Spend a slot" for specific effects can be targeted, requires no reference to anything else and can do exactly what it sets out to do (let the player make their wildshaping stronger) with less risk of any complications or possible future exploits as new spells are introduced. Keeping everything with the (combat) wildshape rules is arguably simpler, because that's all you need to worry about when using them.
This is why I prefer that solution. Will I be heartbroken if they get some form of spellcasting instead? Probably not, if it's done well enough, but it just isn't my preferred way to do it for the reasons above.
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Nothing is ever a MUST, but if I was super locked in on the sizes you came up with a great compromise of one size category difference. I just fear the ability to switch from tiny scout utilities into full combat form with no cost might be too powerful for one subclass. It extends your Wild Shape use drastically, almost to the point that the resource expense becomes an afterthought by levels 5-6. Maybe cutting the ability to take your normal form is more important than worrying about what sizes the Druid can become. You will find any time I play around with design I typically add some limits. I think limits are more fun and balanced, but can also accept that sometimes I’m wrong and limit things too aggressively.
True, though those subclasses get a bunch of spells added to their list because they are spellcasting-focused specs. Moon Druid isn't about the spellcasting, it's about the shapeshifting. They just need some access to their spellcasting while in Wildshape, not necessarily a whole list of new and powerful spells. Though I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a list of cool, thematic spells for Moon Druidif that is the direction Wizards picked.
I never really considered Moon Druid to need to be spamming spell slots to be competitive, just using them at roughly the same pace other druids would be. A Moon Druid throwing up a buff on themselves and then re-casting that buff whenever they lose concentration is fine in my mind. If they can have some out-of-combat utility from their spells without sacrificing an entire use of Wildshape to resume caster form that is even better.
So a Moon Druid throwing up Barkskin (which needs another redesign to mesh with the temp HP mechanic they gave Moon Druid, this spell should not be redundant with temp HP from Combat Wildshape) so they can be as tanky as a Fighter or Barbarian is functional to me. Throw in the occasional use of Absorb Elements for surviving AoEs and the Moon Druid is expending a decent amount of resources to stay in the fight.
The way it's designed now actually changing shape isn't the reason you'd be burning Wildshape uses anyway. You're doing it for that sweet temp HP to keep you in the fight longer. So to my mind being able to get more out-of-combat utility from each use of Wildshape isn't necessarily a bad thing, as you'll want to use your extra uses to keep yourself alive when two or three guys with greataxes decide that focusing on you is their ideal move.
It's all a bit clunky. To be honest, I really hope they bring back Channel Nature. Having multiple different things tied to a single druid resource is much more clear and concise than having Wildshape both be a use for the resource and the name of the resource at the same time.
So you could burn Channel Nature to:
- Wildshape.
- Conjure Familiar.
- Restore 1st level Spell Slots.
- Restore Wildshape temp HP (Moon Druid Exclusive).
- Activate Storm Form (Sea Druid Exclusive).
- Utilize Land's Aid (Land Druid Exclusive).
- Utilize Nature's Sanctuary (Land Druid Exclusive).
When you type it all up like this there's actually a fair amount of things Wildshape is used to do. It's way more comprehensive to just call it Nature Points or something.
... Also, listing it all out like this makes me realize that Land Druid actually has the most ways to use "Wildshape Uses" of any subclass. Kind'a weird.
Thanks for the OP to open the discussion. Generally speaking, I 100% support your general approach that the main problems with the 5e Moon Druid is that (a) its WS is OP at certain levels [but UP at other levels, hence (b)], and (b) WS doesn't scale gradually enough across levels. IMO these are the main problems that need to be addressed in order to improve the Moon Druid. Other changes are secondary, and must not negatively affect (a) and (b). So if (a) and (b) are fixed we don't need to add in more spells that the Moon Druid can cast during WS (but abjurations seems reasonable), etc. So IMO the only relevant discussion is the method for implementing (a) and (b). IMO the best method is tweaking the Moon Druid's WS CR - level table. For example, regardless of the level at which Moon Druid's can WS (BTW, IMO Moon Druid's should be able to WS at level 2 or even at level 1), the revised table would be something like the following:
The table doesn't show any levels after 10 because elementals are a better combat option than any CR 5+ beast.
I think once these changes are made to the Moon Druid level - beast CR table little or no changes need to be made to the other rules about WS, i.e., HP, AC, ability scores & their bonuses, feats, proficiencies, racial bonuses, need to be addressed.
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in the last year.