I outright stated that Rune Knight overshadowed Psi Warrior. That doesn't mean Psi Warrior "has issues" so much as Rune Knight being more exciting. As the only way for a Fighter to reach Huge size natively on top of all the other things it does, that's understandable.
"Doesn't excite people" means the subclass has issues.
The lack of a "wow factor" does not mean the class is mechanically weak. The last chart I saw which tracked classes and subclasses, the Champion made up 40% of fighters on this website.
Well, being "mechanically balanced" does not mean that the class is something that WotC wants in the PHB. Also, obviously Champion is leagues ahead of every other subclass. It's free.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The lack of a "wow factor" does not mean the class is mechanically weak. The last chart I saw which tracked classes and subclasses, the Champion made up 40% of fighters on this website.
It's difficult to measure the effect of 'subclass exists in the basic rules', but it appears to be quite large. Looking through the list from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kx6jZeN4jM at the ratio of 'basic rules to most popular non-basic rules':
Barbarian: Berserker has a 2.6:1 advantage over Totem
Bard: Lore has a 5.9:1 advantage over Glamour
Cleric: Life has a 7.4:1 advantage over Tempest
Druid: Land is only 0.72:1 vs Moon
Fighter: Champion has a 2.3:1 advantage over Battle master
Monk: Open Hand has a 4.1:1 advantage over Shadow
Paladin: Devotion has a 2.7:1 advantage over Vengeance
Ranger: Hunter has a 4.4:1 advantage over Beast master
Rogue: Thief has a 2.6:1 advantage over Assassin
Sorcerer: Draconic has a 4.9:1 advantage over Wild
Warlock: Fiend has a 3.2:1 advantage over Hexblade.
Wizard: Evocation has a 4:1 advantage over Necromancy.
It seems likely that an appropriate 'basic rules' discount is to divide by 3 or 4, meaning the true popularity of champion is lower than battle master and maybe lower than eldritch knight.
The lack of a "wow factor" does not mean the class is mechanically weak. The last chart I saw which tracked classes and subclasses, the Champion made up 40% of fighters on this website.
It's difficult to measure the effect of 'subclass exists in the basic rules', but it appears to be quite large. Looking through the list from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kx6jZeN4jM at the ratio of 'basic rules to most popular non-basic rules':
Barbarian: Berserker has a 2.6:1 advantage over Totem
Bard: Lore has a 5.9:1 advantage over Glamour
Cleric: Life has a 7.4:1 advantage over Tempest
Druid: Land is only 0.72:1 vs Moon
Fighter: Champion has a 2.3:1 advantage over Battle master
Monk: Open Hand has a 4.1:1 advantage over Shadow
Paladin: Devotion has a 2.7:1 advantage over Vengeance
Ranger: Hunter has a 4.4:1 advantage over Beast master
Rogue: Thief has a 2.6:1 advantage over Assassin
Sorcerer: Draconic has a 4.9:1 advantage over Wild
Warlock: Fiend has a 3.2:1 advantage over Hexblade.
Wizard: Evocation has a 4:1 advantage over Necromancy.
It seems likely that an appropriate 'basic rules' discount is to divide by 3 or 4, meaning the true popularity of champion is lower than battle master and maybe lower than eldritch knight.
their data is from D and d beyond, so for most users, many of whom just use it as a rough guideline for other games, select the srd class. That said, as you say, it is hard to account for that.I feel like open hand monk is genuinely more popular than shadow, and thief is genuinely more popular than assassin. But I got no hard data to back it up.
my guess is its closer to 2.5:1 is equal. but its just a guess
The lack of a "wow factor" does not mean the class is mechanically weak. The last chart I saw which tracked classes and subclasses, the Champion made up 40% of fighters on this website.
First, it comes with free Basic Rules, so fornew players who haven't invested into digital version of PHB, it's literally the only option. Second, just because it exists on the site, doesn't mean it's actually played. This kind of data is unreliable. They'd have to track not only the existence of a character, but also iterative changes nd activity and only count those that were created at low levels and gradually increased the level over the course of time. And I doubt they bother with that.
The lack of a "wow factor" does not mean the class is mechanically weak. The last chart I saw which tracked classes and subclasses, the Champion made up 40% of fighters on this website.
It's difficult to measure the effect of 'subclass exists in the basic rules', but it appears to be quite large. Looking through the list from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kx6jZeN4jM at the ratio of 'basic rules to most popular non-basic rules':
Barbarian: Berserker has a 2.6:1 advantage over Totem
Bard: Lore has a 5.9:1 advantage over Glamour
Cleric: Life has a 7.4:1 advantage over Tempest
Druid: Land is only 0.72:1 vs Moon
Fighter: Champion has a 2.3:1 advantage over Battle master
Monk: Open Hand has a 4.1:1 advantage over Shadow
Paladin: Devotion has a 2.7:1 advantage over Vengeance
Ranger: Hunter has a 4.4:1 advantage over Beast master
Rogue: Thief has a 2.6:1 advantage over Assassin
Sorcerer: Draconic has a 4.9:1 advantage over Wild
Warlock: Fiend has a 3.2:1 advantage over Hexblade.
Wizard: Evocation has a 4:1 advantage over Necromancy.
It seems likely that an appropriate 'basic rules' discount is to divide by 3 or 4, meaning the true popularity of champion is lower than battle master and maybe lower than eldritch knight.
Looking at the OG video, I'd guestimate that ~30% of accounts on DnDBeyond only have access to the basic rules. If we consider Druid and see that Land is just absolutely hated and assume the 18% who play Land only do so because they have no other choice, then 1/3 basic rule accounts avoid Druid because Land sucks so much which would explain the 1% decrease in players choosing druid compared to other classes.
If we then look at the other classes, and exclude the 30% that don't have a choice of b/c they only have access to basic rules:
These results seem plausible, based on my play experience. Hexblade IME is more popular than Fiend, but I haven't accounted for the bias due to players with PHB but none of the other books. Based on the other classes I expect ~8% for "neutral" non-PHB subclasses - e.g. Zealot Barb & Divine Sorcerer & Drunken Monk - which would make Gloomstalker Ranger and Hexblade both more popular that expected.
I outright stated that Rune Knight overshadowed Psi Warrior. That doesn't mean Psi Warrior "has issues" so much as Rune Knight being more exciting. As the only way for a Fighter to reach Huge size natively on top of all the other things it does, that's understandable.
"Doesn't excite people" means the subclass has issues.
By your own metric, clearly Champion excites people, so to turn around and claim that Psi Warrior doesn't is suspect at best.
By your own metric, clearly Champion excites people, so to turn around and claim that Psi Warrior doesn't is suspect at best.
I was comparing subclasses published in the same source, because there's a definite 'who actually owns the book' factor. Champion is a basic rules class, so it's going to be substantially overrepresented.
By your own metric, clearly Champion excites people, so to turn around and claim that Psi Warrior doesn't is suspect at best.
I was comparing subclasses published in the same source, because there's a definite 'who actually owns the book' factor. Champion is a basic rules class, so it's going to be substantially overrepresented.
And my point is that all this data potentially tells us is that RK might be more popular than Psi Warrior. It says nothing about Psi Warrior's viability in core on its own merits.
If popularity were their main concern, then Shepherd Druid would have beaten out Stars, Divine Soul would have been one of the sorcerers, literally any other Paladin would have beaten Glory etc.
By your own metric, clearly Champion excites people, so to turn around and claim that Psi Warrior doesn't is suspect at best.
I was comparing subclasses published in the same source, because there's a definite 'who actually owns the book' factor. Champion is a basic rules class, so it's going to be substantially overrepresented.
And my point is that all this data potentially tells us is that RK might be more popular than Psi Warrior. It says nothing about Psi Warrior's viability in core on its own merits.
If popularity were their main concern, then Shepherd Druid would have beaten out Stars, Divine Soul would have been one of the sorcerers, literally any other Paladin would have beaten Glory etc.
popularity is a factor though, they said they didnt switched from necromancer for wiz due to low popularity. It may not be the only factor, but it is a factor.
to be clear I think they could use psi warrior if they feel strongly about it, but its popularity is a strike against it, it not having a good opposite, or providing a very different playstyle is another factor.
However, if it needs no work, that may trump the other factors. that said, since yall also say rune knight needs no work, has high popularity, (relative to its release) It seems like rune knight might be the pick.
By your own metric, clearly Champion excites people, so to turn around and claim that Psi Warrior doesn't is suspect at best.
I was comparing subclasses published in the same source, because there's a definite 'who actually owns the book' factor. Champion is a basic rules class, so it's going to be substantially overrepresented.
And my point is that all this data potentially tells us is that RK might be more popular than Psi Warrior. It says nothing about Psi Warrior's viability in core on its own merits.
If popularity were their main concern, then Shepherd Druid would have beaten out Stars, Divine Soul would have been one of the sorcerers, literally any other Paladin would have beaten Glory etc.
popularity is a factor though, they said they didnt switched from necromancer for wiz due to low popularity. It may not be the only factor, but it is a factor.
to be clear I think they could use psi warrior if they feel strongly about it, but its popularity is a strike against it, it not having a good opposite, or providing a very different playstyle is another factor.
However, if it needs no work, that may trump the other factors. that said, since yall also say rune knight needs no work, has high popularity, (relative to its release) It seems like rune knight might be the pick.
Complexity is also a factor, which is presumably why they picked Stars over Shepherd despite Shepherd being more popular.
At the end of the day, if they go with RK over PW I won't be upset by it (far from it), I just don't see it as likely.
By your own metric, clearly Champion excites people, so to turn around and claim that Psi Warrior doesn't is suspect at best.
I was comparing subclasses published in the same source, because there's a definite 'who actually owns the book' factor. Champion is a basic rules class, so it's going to be substantially overrepresented.
And my point is that all this data potentially tells us is that RK might be more popular than Psi Warrior. It says nothing about Psi Warrior's viability in core on its own merits.
If popularity were their main concern, then Shepherd Druid would have beaten out Stars, Divine Soul would have been one of the sorcerers, literally any other Paladin would have beaten Glory etc.
popularity is a factor though, they said they didnt switched from necromancer for wiz due to low popularity. It may not be the only factor, but it is a factor.
to be clear I think they could use psi warrior if they feel strongly about it, but its popularity is a strike against it, it not having a good opposite, or providing a very different playstyle is another factor.
However, if it needs no work, that may trump the other factors. that said, since yall also say rune knight needs no work, has high popularity, (relative to its release) It seems like rune knight might be the pick.
Complexity is also a factor, which is presumably why they picked Stars over Shepherd despite Shepherd being more popular.
At the end of the day, if they go with RK over PW I won't be upset by it (far from it), I just don't see it as likely.
They might also be planning to revise the conjuration spells, in which case they might need to completely rework Shepherd so I get why they didn't include it.
By your own metric, clearly Champion excites people, so to turn around and claim that Psi Warrior doesn't is suspect at best.
I was comparing subclasses published in the same source, because there's a definite 'who actually owns the book' factor. Champion is a basic rules class, so it's going to be substantially overrepresented.
And my point is that all this data potentially tells us is that RK might be more popular than Psi Warrior. It says nothing about Psi Warrior's viability in core on its own merits.
If popularity were their main concern, then Shepherd Druid would have beaten out Stars, Divine Soul would have been one of the sorcerers, literally any other Paladin would have beaten Glory etc.
popularity is a factor though, they said they didnt switched from necromancer for wiz due to low popularity. It may not be the only factor, but it is a factor.
to be clear I think they could use psi warrior if they feel strongly about it, but its popularity is a strike against it, it not having a good opposite, or providing a very different playstyle is another factor.
However, if it needs no work, that may trump the other factors. that said, since yall also say rune knight needs no work, has high popularity, (relative to its release) It seems like rune knight might be the pick.
Complexity is also a factor, which is presumably why they picked Stars over Shepherd despite Shepherd being more popular.
At the end of the day, if they go with RK over PW I won't be upset by it (far from it), I just don't see it as likely.
stars has a strong benefit in theme. land/sea and moon/stars is probably the best theming groups hands down in terms of balance of ideas and poetry. I wouldn't throw that away for a slight popularity bump. This also a fantasy/storytelling/lore game.
stars has a strong benefit in theme. land/sea and moon/stars is probably the best theming groups hands down in terms of balance of ideas and poetry. I wouldn't throw that away for a slight popularity bump. This also a fantasy/storytelling/lore game.
Hey, I'm glad they went with Stars too. My point is that them doing so tells us nothing about PW vs RK vs AA vs (something else.)
I don't think they know how to fix the arcane archer
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I don't think they know how to fix the arcane archer
I agree, I'm not sure how to make the AA better without making it broken or making it just a slightly magical Battlemaster. My vote would be the Cavalier, I love the subclass and it's a pretty classic archetype.
When I want that flavor, I go with a bow bladelock and eldritch smite. My personal opinion is that Warlock makes a better arcane archer than the arcane archer does itself.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
When I want that flavor, I go with a bow bladelock and eldritch smite. My personal opinion is that Warlock makes a better arcane archer than the arcane archer does itself.
Now you're making me miss the Moon Bow Invocation for Feylocks that never made it out of UA a few years ago :)
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Well, being "mechanically balanced" does not mean that the class is something that WotC wants in the PHB. Also, obviously Champion is leagues ahead of every other subclass. It's free.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It's difficult to measure the effect of 'subclass exists in the basic rules', but it appears to be quite large. Looking through the list from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kx6jZeN4jM at the ratio of 'basic rules to most popular non-basic rules':
It seems likely that an appropriate 'basic rules' discount is to divide by 3 or 4, meaning the true popularity of champion is lower than battle master and maybe lower than eldritch knight.
their data is from D and d beyond, so for most users, many of whom just use it as a rough guideline for other games, select the srd class. That said, as you say, it is hard to account for that.I feel like open hand monk is genuinely more popular than shadow, and thief is genuinely more popular than assassin. But I got no hard data to back it up.
my guess is its closer to 2.5:1 is equal. but its just a guess
First, it comes with free Basic Rules, so fornew players who haven't invested into digital version of PHB, it's literally the only option. Second, just because it exists on the site, doesn't mean it's actually played. This kind of data is unreliable. They'd have to track not only the existence of a character, but also iterative changes nd activity and only count those that were created at low levels and gradually increased the level over the course of time. And I doubt they bother with that.
Looking at the OG video, I'd guestimate that ~30% of accounts on DnDBeyond only have access to the basic rules. If we consider Druid and see that Land is just absolutely hated and assume the 18% who play Land only do so because they have no other choice, then 1/3 basic rule accounts avoid Druid because Land sucks so much which would explain the 1% decrease in players choosing druid compared to other classes.
If we then look at the other classes, and exclude the 30% that don't have a choice of b/c they only have access to basic rules:
Barbarian: 19% Beserker 19% Totem, 8% Zealot | Beserker = Totem > Zealot
Bard: 19% Lore, 10% Glamour, 8% Whispers | Lore > Glamour = Whispers
Cleric: 22% Life, 7% Tempest, 6% War | Life > Tempest = War
Druid: 25% Moon, -12% Land, 7% Shepherd | Moon > Shepherd > Land
Fighter: 10% Champion, 17% Battlemaster, 11% EK | Battlemaster > Champion = EK
Monk: 15% Open Hand, 11% Shadow, 9% Drunken | Open Hand > Shadow = Drunken
Paladin: 14% Devotion, 16% Vengeance, 10% Ancients | Vengeance = Devotion > Ancients
Ranger: 28% Hunter, 13% Beastmaster, 11% Gloom | Hunter > Beastmaster = Gloom
Rogue: 9% Thief, 15% Assassin, 14% Trickster | Assassin = Trickster > Thief
Sorcerer: 29% Draconic, 12% Wild Magic, 8% Divine | Draconic > Wild > Divine
Warlock: 22% Fiend, 16% Hexblade, 9% GOO | Fiend > Hexblade > GOO
Wizard: 10% Evocation, 10% Necro, 8% Divination | Evocation = Necro = Divination
These results seem plausible, based on my play experience. Hexblade IME is more popular than Fiend, but I haven't accounted for the bias due to players with PHB but none of the other books. Based on the other classes I expect ~8% for "neutral" non-PHB subclasses - e.g. Zealot Barb & Divine Sorcerer & Drunken Monk - which would make Gloomstalker Ranger and Hexblade both more popular that expected.
By your own metric, clearly Champion excites people, so to turn around and claim that Psi Warrior doesn't is suspect at best.
Pantagruel is the one swearing by this data, not Jounichi (or me.)
I was comparing subclasses published in the same source, because there's a definite 'who actually owns the book' factor. Champion is a basic rules class, so it's going to be substantially overrepresented.
And my point is that all this data potentially tells us is that RK might be more popular than Psi Warrior. It says nothing about Psi Warrior's viability in core on its own merits.
If popularity were their main concern, then Shepherd Druid would have beaten out Stars, Divine Soul would have been one of the sorcerers, literally any other Paladin would have beaten Glory etc.
popularity is a factor though, they said they didnt switched from necromancer for wiz due to low popularity. It may not be the only factor, but it is a factor.
to be clear I think they could use psi warrior if they feel strongly about it, but its popularity is a strike against it, it not having a good opposite, or providing a very different playstyle is another factor.
However, if it needs no work, that may trump the other factors. that said, since yall also say rune knight needs no work, has high popularity, (relative to its release) It seems like rune knight might be the pick.
Complexity is also a factor, which is presumably why they picked Stars over Shepherd despite Shepherd being more popular.
At the end of the day, if they go with RK over PW I won't be upset by it (far from it), I just don't see it as likely.
They might also be planning to revise the conjuration spells, in which case they might need to completely rework Shepherd so I get why they didn't include it.
stars has a strong benefit in theme. land/sea and moon/stars is probably the best theming groups hands down in terms of balance of ideas and poetry. I wouldn't throw that away for a slight popularity bump. This also a fantasy/storytelling/lore game.
Hey, I'm glad they went with Stars too. My point is that them doing so tells us nothing about PW vs RK vs AA vs (something else.)
Uh, did they say in the video what the 4th fighter class was going to be?
Nope
Or they could just fix arcane archer? I hope they do, but I also hope if they give us another subclass that it is a melee.
I don't think they know how to fix the arcane archer
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I agree, I'm not sure how to make the AA better without making it broken or making it just a slightly magical Battlemaster. My vote would be the Cavalier, I love the subclass and it's a pretty classic archetype.
When I want that flavor, I go with a bow bladelock and eldritch smite. My personal opinion is that Warlock makes a better arcane archer than the arcane archer does itself.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Now you're making me miss the Moon Bow Invocation for Feylocks that never made it out of UA a few years ago :)