Eh, there is no way on Silvanus' green earth that the new meta gets as narrow as the old one, wherein most 2014 moon druids gave up on the animal thing entirely and spent all their time outside of caster form as elementals... when they even bothered to wildshape at all that is, instead of just being ghetto Land Druids... until they hit 18, at which point the forms were being treated more as a renewable bucket of temp HP on a caster, than an actual serious combat gish. This version is already winning by making us want to stay in animal form so we can benefit from Primal Strike and Lunar Radiance etc.
For the record, I do hope you're right. I hope the new PHB really pushes the envelope and makes sure druids have a good range of viable forms spread through all the CR levels.
It just feels like this UA started with a massive, crippling nerf and has been slowly building back up from there, but every time they add a little more power to make sure Moon Druid can baseline do their job they feel a need to restrict player choice just a little bit more.
"My Druid is never disruptive, I'm not a powergamer, and my wildshape turns take no time at all" is fine and dandy for you. But clearly they are designing these changes for people/tables who are not you. The PHB restriction doesn't just massively speed things up (because now, every form the DM allows outside of that is them being gracious, and the players will know it), it also keeps DM-facing material like the MM and adventure paths DM-facing..
I find the Wizard comparison odd. Wizards never need to peruse their "vast collection" during combat, just the spells they have prepared - just like the Druid would. Unless you're saying they're allowed to cast from everything in their spellbook at your table, which would mean the Druid is even worse off, as they'd have access to their entire spell list!
You frame this like I am trying to present myself as some kind of perfect player. I'm not. If your druid is actually flipping through the entire monster manual in the middle of combat you should have a talk with them about being more prepared for their turn, because it doesn't NEED to take 20 minutes to know what form you want to take.
Eh, there is no way on Silvanus' green earth that the new meta gets as narrow as the old one, wherein most 2014 moon druids gave up on the animal thing entirely and spent all their time outside of caster form as elementals... when they even bothered to wildshape at all that is, instead of just being ghetto Land Druids... until they hit 18, at which point the forms were being treated more as a renewable bucket of temp HP on a caster, than an actual serious combat gish. This version is already winning by making us want to stay in animal form so we can benefit from Primal Strike and Lunar Radiance etc.
For the record, I do hope you're right. I hope the new PHB really pushes the envelope and makes sure druids have a good range of viable forms spread through all the CR levels.
It just feels like this UA started with a massive, crippling nerf and has been slowly building back up from there, but every time they add a little more power to make sure Moon Druid can baseline do their job they feel a need to restrict player choice just a little bit more.
"My Druid is never disruptive, I'm not a powergamer, and my wildshape turns take no time at all" is fine and dandy for you. But clearly they are designing these changes for people/tables who are not you. The PHB restriction doesn't just massively speed things up (because now, every form the DM allows outside of that is them being gracious, and the players will know it), it also keeps DM-facing material like the MM and adventure paths DM-facing..
I find the Wizard comparison odd. Wizards never need to peruse their "vast collection" during combat, just the spells they have prepared - just like the Druid would. Unless you're saying they're allowed to cast from everything in their spellbook at your table, which would mean the Druid is even worse off, as they'd have access to their entire spell list!
You frame this like I am trying to present myself as some kind of perfect player. I'm not. If your druid is actually flipping through the entire monster manual in the middle of combat you should have a talk with them about being more prepared for their turn, because it doesn't NEED to take 20 minutes to know what form you want to take.
I don't think you're a "perfect player." What I think is that the problem Crawford and his team are trying to solve is real, and that they have data from way, way more tables than you've been exposed to in your time playing D&D. That's it. Citing your own experience is valid, but saying the problem doesn't exist because you personally haven't seen it is not.
This is not the moon Druid I was looking for. It’s fine and I will rate it higher than I did their last attempt.
Yep, because of these changes, anyone with a moon druid will likely want/need to multiclass (which I personally dislike), e.g., with a barbarian or monk. Druids just aren't as powerful in melee combat as any martial classes and aren't as powerful as any of the other spellcasters. Wild shape was a mechanism for giving balance to the druid (which is limited to a specified frequency per rest, depending on level) relative to the other classes.
Just in terms of wild shape potency (e.g., not the number of wild shape forms, etc.) the UA 8 druid isn't all bad. It just needs more tuning to make the druid comparable to other classes in terms of DPR. I think the most important tweaks need to be made to HP and AC, and secondarily to ability scores and feats. The 2 most important changes are:
HP: if the druid no longer assumes the HP of the beast (which had very low AC), the druid must get some sort of bonus for temporary HP, e.g., some number n * druid level or wisdom modifier, etc. [N would be greater for a druid subclass like Circle of the Moon that specializes in wild shape combat.]
AC: since druids no longer assume the HP of the beast, there must be some adjustment to increase AC, e.g., while in wild shape, the druid retains their AC (from light armor, which can be maintained in wild shape, AC bonuses from DEX, feats, magical items retained during wild shape (e.g., ring, etc.)
Secondarily, changes should be made to how feats and ability scores are applied during wild shaping. There's no good (plausible, adequate) reason why a PC should lose/forget their feats and bonuses (from ability scores) while they take the form of a beast, esp. given that druids are expected to retain their HP in wild shape.
Re spellcasting in wild shape, the magnitude of the DPR that result from the changes to wild shape should determine spellcasting ability while in wild shape, i.e., the more DPR that results from the changes to wild shape should result in less spell casting options, e.g., high DRP --> healing only spells, and so on.
Last, beyond these changes to wild shape, IMO in order for wild shape to scale with the power/DPR of other martial and spellcasting classes in higher levels, the druid should be able to wild shape into some non-beasts. We know that WoTC are not philosophically opposed to this given that in the past they permitted elemental wild shape. These non-beasts must not be OP in terms of DPR or even immunities, but must maintain balance with the power of other classes at similar levels. I developed a general framework for this here, all or some of which can be applied.
For the record, I do hope you're right. I hope the new PHB really pushes the envelope and makes sure druids have a good range of viable forms spread through all the CR levels.
It just feels like this UA started with a massive, crippling nerf and has been slowly building back up from there, but every time they add a little more power to make sure Moon Druid can baseline do their job they feel a need to restrict player choice just a little bit more.
You frame this like I am trying to present myself as some kind of perfect player. I'm not. If your druid is actually flipping through the entire monster manual in the middle of combat you should have a talk with them about being more prepared for their turn, because it doesn't NEED to take 20 minutes to know what form you want to take.
I don't think you're a "perfect player." What I think is that the problem Crawford and his team are trying to solve is real, and that they have data from way, way more tables than you've been exposed to in your time playing D&D. That's it. Citing your own experience is valid, but saying the problem doesn't exist because you personally haven't seen it is not.
Yep, because of these changes, anyone with a moon druid will likely want/need to multiclass (which I personally dislike), e.g., with a barbarian or monk. Druids just aren't as powerful in melee combat as any martial classes and aren't as powerful as any of the other spellcasters. Wild shape was a mechanism for giving balance to the druid (which is limited to a specified frequency per rest, depending on level) relative to the other classes.
Just in terms of wild shape potency (e.g., not the number of wild shape forms, etc.) the UA 8 druid isn't all bad. It just needs more tuning to make the druid comparable to other classes in terms of DPR. I think the most important tweaks need to be made to HP and AC, and secondarily to ability scores and feats. The 2 most important changes are:
Secondarily, changes should be made to how feats and ability scores are applied during wild shaping. There's no good (plausible, adequate) reason why a PC should lose/forget their feats and bonuses (from ability scores) while they take the form of a beast, esp. given that druids are expected to retain their HP in wild shape.
Re spellcasting in wild shape, the magnitude of the DPR that result from the changes to wild shape should determine spellcasting ability while in wild shape, i.e., the more DPR that results from the changes to wild shape should result in less spell casting options, e.g., high DRP --> healing only spells, and so on.
Last, beyond these changes to wild shape, IMO in order for wild shape to scale with the power/DPR of other martial and spellcasting classes in higher levels, the druid should be able to wild shape into some non-beasts. We know that WoTC are not philosophically opposed to this given that in the past they permitted elemental wild shape. These non-beasts must not be OP in terms of DPR or even immunities, but must maintain balance with the power of other classes at similar levels. I developed a general framework for this here, all or some of which can be applied.
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in the last year.