Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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I understand your frustrations. Respectfully however, I think you are flatly wrong. The reason being, the entire approach of your critique seems to rest on the assumption that a Warlock should be able to customize as equally capable of a melee frontliner as the true martial classes while giving nothing up in the process. You also seem to believe that Caster Warlock is equally capable as a Full Caster but with the weapon damage progression of a martial from Agonizing Blast. Neither assumption is remotely true.
Warlock is about customization but not OPTIMIZATION. Neither path should be able to be equal to a full martial or full caster frankly. Melee Warlock already has a HUGE advantage over every other martial in the game besides pure Fighter because they can get Extra Attack 3. Yes, it requires 3 invocations to achieve this by level 12. While this is not an insignificant portion of Warlock class resources, it is not an egregious investment either considering you would be a melee attacker with; 3 fifth level spell slots per short rest (2 of which come back in 1 minute once per day), 5 permanent magical boosts from your other invocations, a level 6 spell casting, powerful subclass resources, and a once per day free casting of one of the best divination spells in the game. Its completely reasonable to need to invest your invocations to further whichever melee fantasy you wish to fulfill. Lessons of the First Ones - Tough and suddenly your melee warlock has the hit die of a Fighter/Ranger/Paladin. Take the Otherworldly Leap invocation and you have the mobility of a monk. Take Life Drinker and you have a side grade version of Blessed/Radiant strikes from Cleric/Paladin- you do less damage but you heal yourself in real time. Put all of those together with Armor of Shadows and you have a side grade martial that attacks more often than most other martials, has near the mobility of a monk, similar HP as most martials all for the price of lower than average AC. Which you can shore up easily with a multi-class or take advantage of attracting hits by dumping your caster resources into Armor of Agathys and punishing creatures for attacking you. That's balance.
Regarding the idea that all a caster warlock needs is Agonizing Blast, this is a silly notion. Pact of the tome is an invocation tax right off the bat to remotely keep up with the caster fantasy otherwise they quickly fall behind Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer & Wizard in Cantrip progression. It is also required to keep up with Tier 1 ritual spell utility. Caster warlock literally has no options to keep up with a full caster in tiers 2-4 on ritual spell utility without using one of their spells known which is a hugely precious resource. Armor of Shadows is required for a baseline AC comparable to Wizard & Sorcerer and cannot keep up with their burst AC via Shield. Caster warlock in no way keeps up with the durability of Druid & Cleric who both can have shields and medium armor at level 1. They too have to use Lessons of the First ones on Tough and either Misty Step or Otherworldly leap to gain mobility so they have no advantage over melee warlock here. To REMOTELY keep up with Full caster spell slot utility, they have to devote multiple invocations to things like Mask of Many Faces, Misty Visions or One with Shadows because the opportunity cost of spending a pact magic slot is much higher for a caster warlock than a full caster at any point more or less past tier 1 when full casters are already sitting on 9 different spells slots at level 5 vs the Warlock 2. BUT they can achieve different levels of asymmetrical ability over full casters by being able to endlessly spam those invocations. Keep in mind as well, Caster warlock has NO SUPPORT for their class fantasy in available invocations past level 9. At least melee warlock gets a 12 level invocation that supports their class fantasy.
So to reiterate, at the end of the day, neither Caster Warlock, nor Melee Warlock, can fully realize a class fantasy at the same power level of either a Full Martial, or Full Caster. Even with investing all the relevant invocations into the theme, they both come up short. But they also both EXCEL in those fantasies in asymmetrical ways that Full Casters or Martials covet. Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Valor Bard, Bladesinger- they would all LOVE to get Extra Attack 3x. Sorcerer & Wizard would LOVE to be able to spam things like Invisibility, Silent Image, Disguise Self or Arcane Eye at will. THAT is the balance. So yes- I think adding an invocation for Shield proficiency (I could be convinced to give it with Armor of Shadows but maybe not) is a reasonable price to pay to shore up that key balancing weakness of the melee warlock. And it prevents Hexblade from becoming the must pick warlock subclass in 5.5e that it was in 5e.
Last random thought- its literally a common truism in the D&D creator space, Reddit Forums and DnDBeyond forums that the best wizard is a Bladesinger who ignores melee. So yeah, it kind of became a must pick which sucks. I think Bladesong should require concentration but that definitely makes me a heretic lol.
I disagree. (Maybe at level 18 when you get a 10th one) If you want a spellcaster type character, you do not use as many invocations as the Pact of the blade, but you still use enough that you don't have enough to use pact of the blade effectively to be able to be both. You need as invocations go to pick one type of character or the other.
I mean, that’s exactly what filling different niches is- you can be a dedicated combat build if you go all-in on Bladelock or you can expand your repertoire of spells at the expense of straight attack roll damage output.
If you build a warlock that can melee you expect it to be a decent fighter and be able to cast spells. But you can't do both as currently written You can concentrate on being a spellcaster. You can concentrate on being a melee fighter. (badly). You cannot be both a spellcaster and a melee fighter. There are several invocations that can be used to cast spells to supplement the minimal spell slots. If all invocations go to melee building, your spell casting is crap. That is my issue. You pick one. So why be a melee mage if you can't do spellcasting?
The fighter subclass Eldritch Knight is both a better melee fighter and a better spell caster.
A bladelock should be at least as good or even better at spellcasting, it is not.
An EK needs to split focus between STR or DEX, INT, and CON, with about equal priority to the first two if they want to remain effective at combat magic and weapon fighting. A Bladelock uses CHA for both, and gets tools that allow them to leave born DEX and CON in secondary priority. Their spell power scales up far better than an EK, who need to wait for the level where Warlocks get 4th level spells before they can use 2nd level ones. An EK might make a slightly better spell toolbox if you focus on low level utility, but they absolutely don’t have the progression to beat out Bladelocks in actual spell clout.
An EK might make a slightly better spell toolbox if you focus on low level utility, but they absolutely don’t have the progression to beat out Bladelocks in actual spell clout.
I 'll take you word on it because I have never seen nor played an EK. But playing warlocks I have never been able to do squat magic wise if I prioritize melee. It has been either one or the other and no balance. I just can't figure out how people do make bladelocks work. Either I have different standards then those that make it work or it is something else. But it is eaiter one or another and no mixing of spells and swings.
Well, pretty much no one casts blasty spells and makes more than a token weapon attack in the same turn- that’s just game balance. Bladelocks have a few options- can open with a control or AoE on the first turn when you’ve got the best shot at the enemy, then wade in subsequently to try and take advantage of any debuffs that took; can use stuff like Hex, Armor of Agathys, Spirit Shroud, or Shadow of Moil to buff/cover yourself while you’re in melee; or you can focus on pure damage via Eldritch Smite.
So what is it you are expecting from Bladelocks when you say “never been able to do squat magic wise?” If you are expecting to cast a leveled spell every round, your issue is with base warlock- not the fact you are trying to be a Gish. I am playing a multiclass Paladin 6/ Warlock 12 and he is extremely powerful and satisfying to play. I can open combat with a powerful control spell like Synaptic Static or upcast Banishment or Summon Fiend. When I fight, I wait for a crit and drop Eldritch Smite. I excel at exploration casting with infinite Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye and Invisibility. Using a pact Magic slot at the beginning of the day, I upcast Aid on the whole party for 20 extra HP and upcast Find Steed and then immediately short rest during the normal morning activities.
The Ranger, Cleric/Fighter multiclass and Artificer in the party are absurdly jealous of my Extra Attack 3x. Like I’m really not understanding why you think Bladelock is so weak. It’s proven to be obscenely powerful.
I find it difficult to take this statement serious when you start by invalidating my reasoning and then proceed to say that I want Warlocks to operate "as equally capable of a melee frontliner as the true martial classes". And then you also add "while giving nothing up in the process".
Both of these statements are untrue.
The main thing I've asked for is Medium Armor training on Warlock and to not use an Invocation on it (there's enough melee build taxes in my eyes). Best approach to me is to utilize a subclass like the Hexblade to facilitate such a benefit, and keep the Hexblade a subclass focused on the melee warlock build. Other than that I've mainly wanted to fuse the martial and caster aspect of the Hexblade to facilitate some level of spellcasting with also making weapon attacks. This interweaving would also work wonders to utilize your magic for defense or offense where applicable.
Lets take the easiest statement first: "Not giving nothing up in the process" - A melee Warlock already gives up 3-5 Invocations just in order to have SOME of the scaling damage features as a "True martial class" and some defenses to assist their caster foundations. It's also usually true that melee warlocks tend to use their spell slots for defensive spells like Armor of Agathys, Shield, Mirror Image, Shadow of Moil and given subclass opportunity (like '14 Hexblade spell list) stuff like Blur and Haste. Additionally, in order to utilize these invocations, you have to be in melee range - so the otherwise ranged caster have to give up being ranged in order to utilize their melee build. "But a melee Warlock can still pick up Agonizing Blast and shoot with Eldritch Blast from Range" - and in the process invalidate the entire reason to make a melee Warlock build. Giving up that range safety comes with some detriments; more likely getting punched - which means risk of losing Concentration and you use SOME invocations. This sacrifice should also come with some hefty benefits; these are the hardest to justify existing, as it's mainly a slight increase in damage output over AG: EB. Magical weapons can shift this in favor of the melee build.
Then lets tackle the "equally as capable a frontliner as true martial classes": You're never going to convince me that the Warlock who wants to invest into CHA -> DEX - > CON, will ever be as capable as a Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin in taking hits and dishing out damage. Not as a straight class. Even Rogues, Monks, and Rangers have decent damage outputs AND they also have decent defenses - considering all three have DEX save proficiency to avoid a lot of AoE and some ranged damage.
Not being a STR main means we will often give up Heavy weapons, and no GWM/HAM feats and much less to gain from PAM. And even if we do get 13 STR to wield Heavy weapons and clear prerequisites for GWM (& HAM), we can't utilize this stat investment for defense as we don't have Heavy Armor training.
Not being a DEX main means we have poor DEX save (low mod and no prof) and tools like Defensive Duelist comes as an odd build selection.
I often see this argument that Pact of the Blade allows the Warlock to unite their damage stat and casting stat and that makes them amazing, but you seem to forget that martials usually pair their damage stat and their defense stat. Warlocks don't and thus suffer on the defense.
And then we can start taking class features into account like Fighter/Ranger/Paladin with Fighting Style that usually adds damage (either through direct damage or by adding defense that opens up room for damage in other areas - like Two-handed weapons). Barbarian have Rage that provide Damage Resistance against the common damage sources on top of adding damage. Fighter have Second Wind and Indomitable to increase their durability (and supplement their skills). Paladin's Aura of Protection is an amazing shore-up of otherwise lacking saves, and then adding Lay on Hands for burst healing. And not to forget that Fighter and Ranger runs with a D10 Hit Die, whilst Barb gets a D12 and usually prioritize STR/DEX -> CON, so their CON is also good.
And all of them have Armor Training or alternative AC calculations that starts them at 16 AC at level 1 with just armor and some have access to Shields/Fighting Style that can go as high as 19 AC at level 1. Most scale up to 17 AC armor and then either limit their investment to 14 DEX or have higher DEX mod + DEX save prof. for Monk/Rogue/Ranger.
Warlocks on the other hand will sit at 13 (Mage Armor) + 2-3 DEX for their entire career and not have good saves to avoid damage (WIS and CHA).
I wont go into subclass more than most martials can get a fair bit of defense/survivability out of their subclasses. Warlocks generally don't get much out of theirs. Fiend can get CHA + Warl LVL as Temp HP on kill - but Temp HP don't stack, potential conflict with Fiendish Vigor, and requires a kill. Archfey gets some free uses of Misty Step with 1d10 (5.5 avg.) Temp HP on top. They can do it as a Reaction at lvl 6, but as a melee combatant that may include other disadvantages/risks. Celestial gets a pseudo Lay on Hands with a throttle-limit as the likely best of the bunch in general, but the subclass really wants to be a support and caster build and don't provide much for a melee build. The lvl 10 is a worse Inspiring Leader feat (which is a good feat, but also likely picked up by someone by lvl 10) and the lvl 14 is technically a second chance that heals to half max HP, but comes late and there's a high chance that by that point even getting half max HP with your weak AC and likely low CON you can't take many hits and is required to retreat/heal yourself up.
Magic items are also more likely to benefit defensively for other martials with +1-3 armors or shields more often being on the loot table than most other items, whilst a Bracers of Defense is possible for the Warlock, but certainly a lot more shaky being just one item and requiring attunement unlike +1-3 items. Rings and Cloaks of Protection applies to all and generally is coveted for the same reason.
So with all this considered, I don't know how you can postulate that wanting the Hexblade subclass to grant Medium Armor training is wanting "equally capable of a melee frontliner as the true martial classes" nor "Not giving nothing up in the process".
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As for Caster Warlock not being on level with other full casters; true they are not. If for nothing else their vastly limited spell list. But for the most part many campaigns runs with few enough encounters that you can Short Rest between fights so the Caster Warlock always have 2 spell slots (later 3) per fight to sling out damage/control. But for the most part your run-of-the-mill Warlock is just casting Hex and then Eldritch Blasting away for 1d10 + 1d6 + CHA per beam or an avg. of 12-14 per beam (lvl 2-8), scaling numbers at the same levels as Fighter's Extra Attack. That same Fighter with a damage build will typically be dealing out 2d6 + STR + Prof. Bonus at melee range for an avg. of 14/16/18 per hit (at lvl 5/11/17). And the Warlock have the added benefit of dealing (mostly) Force damage, so hardly ever subject to damage resistance/immunity.
Granted the Fighter have Action Surge, subclass features and magical weapons that can put them above. But most of those are limited resources, so we have to consider Warlock spell slots too, beyond Hex. And generally speaking magic items is generally a can of worms to try to consider for class balance, as a Fighter with a Flame Tongue Greatsword adds 2d6 or +7 to their avg. damage per hit, but a Warlock could also get an Enspelled Staff at Rare (same rarity as FT) with Fireball for 1d6 Fireballs per day, banking up to 6, with a save DC of 15 (so equivalent to a lvl 5-7 Warlock save DC).
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Gotta cut the reply short, I don't have enough time at this moment. I will respond to more later.