Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Why bother going melee? Because it does more damage than eldritch blast in the 2024 version. Hexblade should 100% not provide an armor bonus. Do I think that warlocks in melee need a better armor class? Yes I do. Do I think that extra armor proficiency should be provided by a subclass? No, I do not. Armor needs to be provided by another route so that all subclasses can get it, not just Hexblade. Hexblade should not be the defacto only subclass for blades, and giving it bonus armor proficiency. Just because WotC made a mistake by handing out medium armor and shield proficiency for the 2014 warlock by sticking it on Hexblade, does not mean that they should double down on stupidity and repeat the mistake again. Just to be clear, that was 100% a mistake on their part and a bad idea.
If you're going to increase the AC via subclass, it should be in a manner consistent with other sub classes that provide armor boosts, the way barbarians and monks get it, or even better, by tying into class features. You want me to cast hex as a hex blade? Ok, give me a feature that increases my AC when I am concentrating on hex. That's both thematic, and appropriate.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You give the HEXBLADE melee combat spells and have the word BLADE in the name. Why do none of the subclass features require a BLADE (weapon)? <NOT COUNTING BONUS SPELLS>
That’s exactly right. What we need is an updated version of the original Hexblade—not a complete rework. It’s honestly surprising to see people wanting to fundamentally change a subclass that’s already popular and successful.
If you want something entirely different, then ask for a new subclass—don’t try to replace one that’s already well-established and widely acclaimed.
Since as a Hexblade you are most likely taking the Pact of the blade and the blade related invocations.
As a Hexblade. Have the subclass features build on these invocations.
Add CHA to Armor of Shadows.
Allow 2 Pact weapons with Pact of the blade (able to dual wield 2 Pact of the blade light weapons but will need to give subclass a fighting style)
ALSO........
remove HEX subclass feature and return CURSE for level 3
a subclass cant directly build on options that people may or may not have access to. Its a unique problem for warlock. The closest analog is spells and casters, in such cases they have to give the caster the spell, they cant assume people will take it.
Unlike basing a subclass on say Hunters Mark Spell and Hex Spell. Just assume the player will want to cast it instead of any of their other concentration spells.
There's only a couple other concentration spells that will be consistently worth it for Warlocks or Rangers, and both Hexblade and Rangers in general get free casts of the spells so it's not like they have to use up the same resources they would use on the other concentration spells for this. Is it necessarily the most optimal possible option for the class? Probably not. Does it empower people who prefer to just go straight for attack rolls rather than juggle other spell effects? Yes. That's the niche these kinds of features fill, and if that doesn't suit you then fortuitously there's quite a few other subclasses you can choose from.
A spellcaster with dispel magic can stop the Hexblade from accessing their features (Hex Blade only Warlock to advertise the Hex spell -- Target gets orbiting Weapon when casting Hex --Not when casting hex with this feature)
And just how often do you encounter enemies that cast Dispel Magic during combat? My experience has been rarely if ever. Plus, it's the enemy's Action to Dispel it while it's only a Bonus Action to bring it back online, so unless that was your last use of it (remember that you'll effectively have 3-5 free casts depending on your CHA) you're coming out ahead in action economy.
True, they have removed pretty much all "happenstance"-benefits and locked in that if a subclass interacts with something it needs to provide it previously.
With that being said; there's nothing to prevent them from granting an Invocation through the subclass feature and THEN build on it.
Does it follow the general template set forth by the previous four 2024 Warlock subclasses? By no means. Is it an elegant way to steer Hexblade towards melee rather than ranged? Not really.
Ehh... you're comparing 1d10 (versatile) + CHA + Weapon bonuses versus 1d10 + CHA + Knockback for EB.
Dual-wielding Warlocks may be able to press more damage out, calculation needed. You only have 1 pact weapon, so you only get your main hand to use CHA, whilst the other needs DEX so likely worse on the hit-rate whilst the damage rolls don't matter unless you pick up a Fighting Style (which cannot be done with feats - well not with 2024-feats anyway).
There are more ways to improve your weapon damage than to improve EB damage, that's true. Fighting Style, Weapon Mastery to name a few.
Sorlocks still beat out both and Warlock only needs 2 levels to get EB fully kitted and then can go full Sorc for the remainder. Quickened Spell still works to double your EBs. Or if your DM is very generous just picking up an Illusionist's Bracers to copy a cantrip by using a BA.
I don't necessarily disagree that melee Warlocks could fix their AC situation by other means than the subclass granting them Medium Armor Training.
The problem with fixing it through Invocations is that it induces more of an Invocation-tax which is already there with Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Devouring Blade, and Lifedrinker. In the UA material for Warlock they even had Devouring Blade's EAx3 incorporated in the Thirsting Blade Invocation that activated at level 12. They decided against it and split it into two invocations.
Furthermore if non-melee Warlocks can pick up great armor through these fix-invocations, you haven't really done Melee Warlocks as much of a service as you have Ranged Warlocks, and at this point it is the Melee Warlock that needs the help.
Not to mention it would effectively have to "compete" and compare with Armor of Shadows which is a god awful Invocation because it makes precedence and the bar is low. When the class already have access to Light Armor's 12 + DEX AC the jump to 13 + DEX AC from a free casting of Mage Armor is a very small improvement at the cost of an Invocation.
Adding substantial AC bonuses to the Hexblade subclass also brings in the same issues you see with the Bladesinger and the same requirement for a limit to avoid them becoming too tanky compared to other Martials. However Wizards don't have Armor Training, so the Bladesinger's limit on no-armor is only limiting but doesn't take anything away from them. The Warlocks do have Light Armor, so a no-armor limit is punishing for the Warlock. Not to mention if you were to link that AC bonus to your Hex/Concentration-spell would be a double-whammy on bad luck when a Concentration-break both remove your offense and defense - unlike Bladesinger's Bladesong that is its own effect.
Would that be a good enough reason to abandon the Hex dependency, and make the curse its own thing? Hmm possibly. It would be much less restrictive than making the entire subclass revolve around a Concentration spell. Especially since your class spell list is stock full of Concentration spells for 2024 (32 against 24 at lvl 1-5) and unlike Rogue's assessment I will happily Concentrate on a bunch of them during combat in my Warlock career.
And just because you had to say it:
What a reductive and nonsensical response in a thread about feedback to an unreleased product that is specifically looking for feedback.
I'd say the people advocating to keep the Hexblade similar to the original has a better case when it comes to: "If you don't like it, go somewhere else."
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
It wouldn’t make them them the Pinnacle of PotB. Archfey is a subclass with great skirmisher playstyle. It would only make them the pinnacle at stay in melee Warlock without Multiclassing. One level in fighter gives any warlock the same armor, plus a weapon mastery and a fighting style. It actually means that this feature would make multiclassing partially redundant for Hexblade. I would much rather they not update Hexblade than update it without giving it armor or a reason to prefer melee combat.
You're sort of contradicting yourself there. If other warlocks already manage just fine in melee without medium armor, then giving it to hexblades wouldn't make them far and away the best at it.
No, I'm not because all the others are limited use rather than static. Medium Armor and a shield means an AC of 19 with 14 DEX; using Mage Armor with that DEX gives 15 AC. A constant 20% decrease in to hit is far and away better than the other options.
See above- you're asking for a far larger boost to performance than the other features provide. And the existence of Fighter dips really doesn't negate my point so much as highlight why they shouldn't have dropped the verbiage that multiclassing is at the DM's discretion; regardless, expecting them to take into account all possible dip interactions is probably a bridge too far for the dev team, so for the purposes of designing class/subclass features the only consideration is the class itself and other subclass features.
No it's not.
Blade pact is not hexblade only. How on earth do rogues survive with only light armor in melee? It's not a tax.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
A rogue survives in melee by not staying in melee, the same way Archfey does, with mobility. A rogue has bonus action disengage built into its kit, and is a dex based class for slightly better AC anyway. Even the Swashbuckler rogue has mobility built into its kit so it doesn’t stand in melee range. It’s a tax.
Above doesn’t change anything. Giving them armor doesn’t make them the best PotB user when Archfey can skirmish. A 20% decrease to hit isn’t as good as a 100% decrease to hit. Saying the other’s abilities are limited is pointless when most people are only having 1-2 combats per session.
In both cases the class or subclasses forces you to have the spell. No player can by mistake be a ranger without access to HM, no hexblade wont have hex. This is different from blade pact which many warlocks dont have.
any charachter can lose access to to it features based on debuffs. paralyze, stun, sleep. And every caster loses access to some features if silenced, dispelled, antimagic etc.
hexblade does not need medium armor to survive in melee.
first off the objective difference in potential between light and medium armor is 1 aC.
light armor = 12+ dex mod it goes up to 17
mage armor = 13+dex mod it goes up to 18
Best medium armor - 15+ up to 2 Dex mod for 17 and gives disadvantage to stealth.
rogue has light armor and the only defensive feature that may help them survive in melee is a reaction to half damage once per round. warlock and hexblade have substantially more tools for mitigation or health recovery, HP and even AC boosting.
So lets be clear here, the warlock can very much have as much AC as medium armor, they just have to actually invest in it. We arent really discussing whether warlock can specialize into more AC in combat, we are discussing how easy it should be.
what some are calling 'onerous' is less than others have to invest.
a lvl 1 warlock can take the mage armor invocation and have 16 AC with 16 dex, while still having 17 in charisma, which is actually the equivalent of medium armor.
17 ac with medium armor requires has a stealth penalty. which they can still beat by investing in dex.
to keep it 100%. warlock has spells, access to level 6-9 lvl spells, scaling mulriattack ranged damage, and melee damage with the same stat (better than dex weapons) and yall think that they cant exist without having to invest into AC. No one else has this. No one else needs this to be effective.
Monk cannot get 17 AC without investing 14 points in two stats, rogue cant get 17ac without investing 5 points in stats. Why is it warlock or hexblade's divine right to get melee effeciency, 17 AC, spell casting and mental stats with minimal investment?
you want to be a standard AC based melee martial, invest in dexterity. you already get weapon and spell scaling from chr, you have the attributes for it.