also keep in mind this subclass isnt primarily a melee class anymore, people can possibly be playing with an agonizing repelling eldritch blast spear so essentially more range than almost any charachter, with 40 feet of push away. Hence, not really needing tons of always on defense.
That's what people are complaining about, the best way to play a hexBLADE is not to use a weapon at all and instead spamming EB. It's not that this subclass isn't potent, it clearly is. It is that this subclass isn't a gish-focused subclass anymore. It's the "I cast Hex" subclass, and that isn't very interesting.
i think that not making hexblade a more melee martial focused subclass is in someways questionable as a direction.
i see why they did it, because pact of the blade basically gives every warlock a strong ability to be martial. That said it would still be possible to go even further with it as a subclass and maybe a prefered direction. Also, this was always an issue. As long as the class has eldritch blast built in, its going to be a factor in whether meleeing is needed
But many people are talking about how the design they chose doesnt work, or needs more power or something. I think yall should double down and made it an even cooler magic melee is a different type of feedback than. This class is too weak, or needs more AC, or doesnt function properly.
now i dont think its perfect, and im not sure its the right direction, but this subclass wouldnt be struggling at all next to rogues, monks, rangers or fighters in terms of power/gameplay
giving the class medium armor and shields wouldnt make it more of a martial, it would just
its wild that you call their spell list lackluster.
smites are very strong on an attack based caster that have crit range of 19 especially if you choose elven accuracy
conjure barrage with full caster scaling rate is pretty potent. Steel wind strike is also extremely potent. And these spells are mostly not easily accessed otherwise, they arent in magic initiate, and are of higher level than spell feats usually give.
you can use saving throws yourself, staggering smite and wrathful smite are save based spells.you are also free to choose a weapon mastery feat like greatsword topple (has a save) shortsword/rapier vex, or nick if you desire.
You dont need to use hex all the time, it has seperate casts from pact magic, you can drop it and recast it as needed, you just give up its specfic benefits while doing so. you will quickly have 5 casts per day.
really, what concentration spell does warlock have that is better for the single target situation than pick a target you do: d6 per hit (on a 3-5 attack per round class), 10 healing per target killed, CHR damage on miss once per turn, 3 "maneuver options" can reduce the damage from them by 14, cant lose concentration, crit on 19, and +d6 to any target within 30 feet.
Perhaps a summon spell cast at 6+ but those generally consume one action, and you literally cant use them all the time.
when its not a single target situation, or you need defense or utility, use a different spell. return to hex as needed.
also keep in mind this subclass isnt primarily a melee class anymore, people can possibly be playing with an agonizing repelling eldritch blast spear so essentially more range than almost any charachter, with 40 feet of push away. Hence, not really needing tons of always on defense.
First of all I previously didn't say their spell list was lackluster, I said it was nerfed compared to the 2014 version.
Second, Wrathful Smite is fine when you're rocking lvl 1 spell slots. The upcasting to 2d6 damage at 2nd level spell slots is poor damage and the condition can't improve - and at DC 13 enemies have a pretty good chance to make the save. And you first get it at Warlock level 3 where you're rocking 2nd level spell slots. Thus it is fringe usable, but you likely rather want to use your spell slots for utility like Cause Fear (backwards), Misty Step, Hold Person, Mirror Image, Bane, or Armor of Agathys - or in the case of the 2014 Hexblade; Blur. Yes I know some of those are concentration spells and I really really hope to avoid the Hex Dependency for this subclass, exactly because a lot of the spells that Warlocks do get that are good, are concentration spells. The entire roster of 2024 Warlock's 2nd level spells are Concentration spells with the exception of Mirror Image and Misty Step (that's 10-to-2). Not all are combat orientated yes, but then you're more likely to break your concentration on your Hex or the other way around - say with Suggestion. Staggering Smite is fine... it's fair damage and a decent save-target for a strong condition to inflict. But it was also on the 2014 list and thus not part of my comment that the list was nerfed. As for crit-fishing with a Smite - you could still go for Eldritch Smite Invocation that's [1 + spell lvl]xD8s of damage and auto-Prone no save. But granted one is "free" from subclass and the other is a full Invocation use. It is however first activated at level 14 with the increased crit range, so not that often players get to run it. Additionally Elven Accuracy still requires ADV, and the means of getting ADV is a lot less common in 2024 than 2014. You're building for something that gets online rather late in a campaign.
I said adding Conjure Barrage was weird - not necessarily bad. It's a Ranger exclusive spell, so it just felt a bit overstepping to me. I did also confuse it for Conjure Volley initially - the cylinder AoE damage and not Barrage's cone. Steel Wind Strike was also primarily because it feels anti-climatic to use as a Weapon wielder because it doesn't synergize - aside from being a positioning/mobility tool. I said there were not many other AoEs available at 5th level that don't involve Concentration. But between Steel Wind Strike's 6d10 (average 33) damage to 5 targets, against Cone of Cold's 8d8 (average 36) damage to X targets... The times where SWS have adequate amounts of targets, I quite likely also have amble targets for CoC. Since there are many targets in the encounter it is also fair to assume they are not the best stat blocks for the level, so they are not likely to pass their CON-saves at DC 17. I was mainly bummed by the loss of Blur, Phantasmal Killer and I forgot to mention the loss of Branding Smite (now Shining Smite), and to a lesser extend Blink was also serviceable but not that great a defensive tool. All but Blink are likely axed due to Concentration.
With that said I don't find the UA Hexblade spell list more than decent - where the 2014 was pretty good.
I'm cutting the response a bit short, but your last comment on Hexblade being opened up to be a ranged character and working just as well is for me a problem. The point was originally to make a gish to work with the melee aspects of the Warlock class and Invocations. There's already a bunch of subclasses that can amplify the caster aspects, that don't really grant a melee combatant that much benefit. Why is it so wrong to make a subclass that favors the melee aspect? I thought that was the point of subclasses - to allow specialization - which can include the way to approach the base class differently than what is typical. The UA Hexblade doesn't really encourage a different playstyle than your usual Warlock - basically Eldritch Blast mini-gunner. That is a failure in my eyes.
as i said elsewhere, if the goal was making a melee martial, i think hexblade is not ideal, not because it doesnt work with melee, but because it could be much cooler at melee. i agree that it would have been fine to make it a melee martial focused subclass.
that said, eldritch blast is built in, and you can't simply ignore that in subclass design. whatever you add via hexblade is in addition to having one of the best ranged repeatable options in the game (only fighter gets as many attacks, and no one gets d10 repeatable without a feat) And the most effectiveness at combat with a single attribute. Not only are dex weapons weaker and has less options in melee, they also cant repeatedly do d10 damage without a feat. Fighter can compete, but it needs both dex and str to do both at the same time, so it has to give up defense if it wants to go that direction.
they could somehow disable or limit eldritch blast, but its a core part of the class, and many players probably wouldnt be cool with that. Many players like that they arent pushed toward melee as hexblades. So if they arent limiting the ranged potential, and are using the same main stat, they have to include in their calculus that it always has an excelent ranged option.
as far as you evaluating wrathful smite as weak, that doesnt really make sense. its triggered via bonus action and exists on top of your regular attack based damage. Fear is a nice option for applying aoe frightened and control, but it isnt anywhere as useful versus a single target.
fear= give up a turn to cause frightened and make an enemy flee with a 50% chance
wrathful+hex= this turn you can do your entire multiattack stack+ number of attacks*d6+ 3d6+ frightening the creature with a 75% chance.
If you are focusing on combat with one creature there is no competition between these two options. fear is great, but it has a different usecase.
as you say, eldritch smite needs an invocation, and prone is considered a lower teir effect than frightened, in spell design, if there is a damage rider, i would expect the one that gives frightened to be lower than the one that can cause prone. Which brings up something you said, that advantage is harder in 2014, that is definitely not true, there are many more sources of advantage now, and many extend to teamates, like prone. The warlock can prone on hit, and they can stun on hit, and they have the option of taking mastery feats to get more. If a warlock wants to get advantage they have numerous ways.
cone of cold does not compete with steel wind strike because steel wind strike is attack based which the the hexblade is focused on. Essentially steel wind strike's spread is more like, my main target takes more damage,
cone of cold is 8d8 con save,
steel wind strike is attack based, so it can crit, and benefits from advantage or bless, or items that boost spell attack (wand of warmage) (and i too would like it to be more closely tied to a weapon, but everything isnt according to my druthers)
essentially cone of cold has less synergy with attacks, and the hex features. its solid, but steel wind sometimes an improvement for a charachter focused on improving attacks, and gaining benefits when attacking. For example, when ambushing the enemy, (hidden or invisible) steel wind averages 31 damage via advantage. cone of cold with a con save probably averages 26 assuming 45% save chance. And oustide of that, if you add up all the hex on hit benefits, it will be superior damage given 3 targets even without advantage.
that said, based on your post, i can see why in some respects some people might prefer the old spell list. But from my perspective regardless its a very good added spell less for an this type of subclass
feeling like warlock is stealing ranger's shine is a valid emotion, but facts are fact, these are objectively great spells, hexblade is also yucking paladin's yum, but that doesnt change that these are very good spells
as far as you evaluating wrathful smite as weak, that doesnt really make sense. its triggered via bonus action and exists on top of your regular attack based damage. Fear is a nice option for applying aoe frightened and control, but it isnt anywhere as useful versus a single target.
fear= give up a turn to cause frightened and make an enemy flee with a 50% chance
wrathful+hex= this turn you can do your entire multiattack stack+ number of attacks*d6+ 3d6+ frightening the creature with a 75% chance.
If you are focusing on combat with one creature there is no competition between these two options. fear is great, but it has a different usecase.
Where do you get the 50% chance on Cause Fear and then 75% chance on Wrathful? Cause Fear (and Fear) is a DC13 WIS saving throw, same as Wrathful at level 3. But Wrathful ALSO requires that you hit - well under 2024-rules you first cast Smites when you hit, but for any given round it still applies that you need to hit AC and then the target needs to fail their DC to Frighten them. Per round you're more likely to frighten through Cause Fear/Fear than Wrathful Smite.
Also Cause Fear is the 1st level spell with singular target and upcast for +1 target, and it doesn't include the flee aspect, just the Frighten condition - so target can't move closer and its attacks have DisADV as long as it can see you.
Sure against a singular target where you don't think you'll need defenses like Mirror Image, Blur (as per 2014) or Shield, and it is non-humanoid so Hold Person is not applicable, you may use Wrathful Smite.
When you hit level 5 and presumably picks up EA x2, then against singular enemies that are non-humanoid, and you expect to have a Short Rest afterwards, you're likely to use one or both slots on Smites - sure. If it is humanoid, Hold Person is still a very very good spell at this level.
as you say, eldritch smite needs an invocation, and prone is considered a lower teir effect than frightened, in spell design, if there is a damage rider, i would expect the one that gives frightened to be lower than the one that can cause prone. Which brings up something you said, that advantage is harder in 2014, that is definitely not true, there are many more sources of advantage now, and many extend to teamates, like prone. The warlock can prone on hit, and they can stun on hit, and they have the option of taking mastery feats to get more. If a warlock wants to get advantage they have numerous ways.
What are you talking about? There were more ways to gain Advantage in 2014 rules than there are now in 2024 rules. Eldritch Smite haven't changed a bit either and 2014-Hexblade still had both Wrathful and Staggering Smite in their spell list back then. Weapon Mastery with Topple have been introduced but unless the player is building a melee control build you rarely see Topple because it puts ranged companions at DisADV, and the target just spends half their movement to stand on their turn so they don't have the DisADV on attacks.
I wholeheartedly agree that Frighten is a better condition overall than Prone - unless you're a team of melee combatants that don't care about range.
cone of cold does not compete with steel wind strike because steel wind strike is attack based which the the hexblade is focused on. Essentially steel wind strike's spread is more like, my main target takes more damage,
cone of cold is 8d8 con save,
steel wind strike is attack based, so it can crit, and benefits from advantage or bless, or items that boost spell attack (wand of warmage) (and i too would like it to be more closely tied to a weapon, but everything isnt according to my druthers)
essentially cone of cold has less synergy with attacks, and the hex features. its solid, but steel wind sometimes an improvement for a charachter focused on improving attacks, and gaining benefits when attacking. For example, when ambushing the enemy, (hidden or invisible) steel wind averages 31 damage via advantage. cone of cold with a con save probably averages 26 assuming 45% save chance. And oustide of that, if you add up all the hex on hit benefits, it will be superior damage given 3 targets even without advantage.
I concede my point. I didn't properly consider that because SWS is attack based you could also get attack-benefits like Critical hits. The rider-effect of the Maneuver and the pseudo-Graze on miss is not really something that swings the pendulum at all for me. The +1d6 from Hex is neat but not great either.
Overall I will agree that SWS is better suited to the UA-Hexblade than what AoE potential I get with Cone of Cold.
And regarding my previous comment that I almost wanted Synaptic Static to be on the list so it could "combo" with the Maneuver for DisADV on next Saving Throw; luckily Warlocks can pick that one up in their own spell list. I missed that initially. We're just going to ignore that Warlock also already have access to Dispel Magic so it being included here is... not really adding anything but +1 Prepared Spell.
that said, based on your post, i can see why in some respects some people might prefer the old spell list. But from my perspective regardless its a very good added spell less for an this type of subclass
I see from the 2014-Hexblade to the UA-Hexblade: You lose out on Medium Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency and you're locked into using your Concentration on Hex to actually get anything from your Subclass - aside from spells. Previously the Hexblade spell list included several good defensive spells that all required Concentration. The UA-Hexblade is more squishy, have fewer and worse defensive options.
All in all I look at it and say: Why do I want to go into melee? I have to spend a lot of Invocations to be on par with a Fighter on attacks, but I'm less tough. I can do spells but my subclass primarily wants me not to use a bunch of them because they are not Hex.
I could instead use those invocations to pimp out my Eldritch Blast - making myself a ranged character and not in the line of fire. This makes me less likely to be hit and thus less likely to lose Concentration on my spells. I can push enemies around and away from my melee frontliners to allow them greater flexibility. And I don't give anything from the subclass up to do this. I can do other spells than Hex but my subclass primarily wants me not to use a bunch of them.
The 2014-Hexblade had the same investment but it fixed a lot of the toughness issue by adding Medium Armor Prof. and it could be sweetened by a Shield. Then add defensive spells and suddenly you're also quite durable. It costs your spell slots for the most part, making you pretty much on par with a base Fighter. You still have cantrips/Eldritch Blast and the Fighter still have Action Surge and their Subclass. Medium Armor also meant you didn't go quite as MAD and could actually afford to put points into CON, making it your secondary stat. The UA-Hexblade smells a lot like CHA>DEX>CON resulting in less HP, worse Concentration Check and with the new Lifedrinker, also less healing.
And then we're back to: Why bother going melee? The Hexblade subclass previously answered: Because I make you durable enough. The UA-Hexblade... not so much.
feeling like warlock is stealing ranger's shine is a valid emotion, but facts are fact, these are objectively great spells, hexblade is also yucking paladin's yum, but that doesnt change that these are very good spells
Personally I would have preferred if WotC made other on-attack spell-infused attacks similar to Smites instead of just poaching the Paladin's. Both to secure Paladin their exclusivity and for flavor. I do understand the desire to keep the total spell count down and to reuse.
That could have been done by making "generic" spell-infused attacks and then Paladin gets the class feature to add some bells and whistles on top - like converting the damage type to Radiant and that sort. Anyway...
Yes Conjure Barrage and the Smites are fine. Wrathful Smite if nothing but lack of better alternative when you lock up your Concentration.
Why bother going melee? Because it does more damage than eldritch blast in the 2024 version. Hexblade should 100% not provide an armor bonus. Do I think that warlocks in melee need a better armor class? Yes I do. Do I think that extra armor proficiency should be provided by a subclass? No, I do not. Armor needs to be provided by another route so that all subclasses can get it, not just Hexblade. Hexblade should not be the defacto only subclass for blades, and giving it bonus armor proficiency. Just because WotC made a mistake by handing out medium armor and shield proficiency for the 2014 warlock by sticking it on Hexblade, does not mean that they should double down on stupidity and repeat the mistake again. Just to be clear, that was 100% a mistake on their part and a bad idea.
If you're going to increase the AC via subclass, it should be in a manner consistent with other sub classes that provide armor boosts, the way barbarians and monks get it, or even better, by tying into class features. You want me to cast hex as a hex blade? Ok, give me a feature that increases my AC when I am concentrating on hex. That's both thematic, and appropriate.
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You give the HEXBLADE melee combat spells and have the word BLADE in the name. Why do none of the subclass features require a BLADE (weapon)? <NOT COUNTING BONUS SPELLS>
You give the HEXBLADE melee combat spells and have the word BLADE in the name. Why do none of the subclass features require a BLADE (weapon)? <NOT COUNTING BONUS SPELLS>
That’s exactly right. What we need is an updated version of the original Hexblade—not a complete rework. It’s honestly surprising to see people wanting to fundamentally change a subclass that’s already popular and successful.
If you want something entirely different, then ask for a new subclass—don’t try to replace one that’s already well-established and widely acclaimed.
Since as a Hexblade you are most likely taking the Pact of the blade and the blade related invocations.
As a Hexblade. Have the subclass features build on these invocations.
Add CHA to Armor of Shadows.
Allow 2 Pact weapons with Pact of the blade (able to dual wield 2 Pact of the blade light weapons but will need to give subclass a fighting style)
ALSO........
remove HEX subclass feature and return CURSE for level 3
a subclass cant directly build on options that people may or may not have access to. Its a unique problem for warlock. The closest analog is spells and casters, in such cases they have to give the caster the spell, they cant assume people will take it.
Unlike basing a subclass on say Hunters Mark Spell and Hex Spell. Just assume the player will want to cast it instead of any of their other concentration spells.
Unlike basing a subclass on say Hunters Mark Spell and Hex Spell. Just assume the player will want to cast it instead of any of their other concentration spells.
There's only a couple other concentration spells that will be consistently worth it for Warlocks or Rangers, and both Hexblade and Rangers in general get free casts of the spells so it's not like they have to use up the same resources they would use on the other concentration spells for this. Is it necessarily the most optimal possible option for the class? Probably not. Does it empower people who prefer to just go straight for attack rolls rather than juggle other spell effects? Yes. That's the niche these kinds of features fill, and if that doesn't suit you then fortuitously there's quite a few other subclasses you can choose from.
A spellcaster with dispel magic can stop the Hexblade from accessing their features (Hex Blade only Warlock to advertise the Hex spell -- Target gets orbiting Weapon when casting Hex --Not when casting hex with this feature)
A spellcaster with dispel magic can stop the Hexblade from accessing their features (Hex Blade only Warlock to advertise the Hex spell -- Target gets orbiting Weapon when casting Hex --Not when casting hex with this feature)
And just how often do you encounter enemies that cast Dispel Magic during combat? My experience has been rarely if ever. Plus, it's the enemy's Action to Dispel it while it's only a Bonus Action to bring it back online, so unless that was your last use of it (remember that you'll effectively have 3-5 free casts depending on your CHA) you're coming out ahead in action economy.
Since as a Hexblade you are most likely taking the Pact of the blade and the blade related invocations.
As a Hexblade. Have the subclass features build on these invocations.
Add CHA to Armor of Shadows.
Allow 2 Pact weapons with Pact of the blade (able to dual wield 2 Pact of the blade light weapons but will need to give subclass a fighting style)
ALSO........
remove HEX subclass feature and return CURSE for level 3
a subclass cant directly build on options that people may or may not have access to. Its a unique problem for warlock. The closest analog is spells and casters, in such cases they have to give the caster the spell, they cant assume people will take it.
True, they have removed pretty much all "happenstance"-benefits and locked in that if a subclass interacts with something it needs to provide it previously.
With that being said; there's nothing to prevent them from granting an Invocation through the subclass feature and THEN build on it.
Does it follow the general template set forth by the previous four 2024 Warlock subclasses? By no means. Is it an elegant way to steer Hexblade towards melee rather than ranged? Not really.
Why bother going melee? Because it does more damage than eldritch blast in the 2024 version.
Ehh... you're comparing 1d10 (versatile) + CHA + Weapon bonuses versus 1d10 + CHA + Knockback for EB.
Dual-wielding Warlocks may be able to press more damage out, calculation needed. You only have 1 pact weapon, so you only get your main hand to use CHA, whilst the other needs DEX so likely worse on the hit-rate whilst the damage rolls don't matter unless you pick up a Fighting Style (which cannot be done with feats - well not with 2024-feats anyway).
There are more ways to improve your weapon damage than to improve EB damage, that's true. Fighting Style, Weapon Mastery to name a few.
Sorlocks still beat out both and Warlock only needs 2 levels to get EB fully kitted and then can go full Sorc for the remainder. Quickened Spell still works to double your EBs. Or if your DM is very generous just picking up an Illusionist's Bracers to copy a cantrip by using a BA.
Hexblade should 100% not provide an armor bonus. Do I think that warlocks in melee need a better armor class? Yes I do. Do I think that extra armor proficiency should be provided by a subclass? No, I do not. Armor needs to be provided by another route so that all subclasses can get it, not just Hexblade. Hexblade should not be the defacto only subclass for blades, and giving it bonus armor proficiency. Just because WotC made a mistake by handing out medium armor and shield proficiency for the 2014 warlock by sticking it on Hexblade, does not mean that they should double down on stupidity and repeat the mistake again. Just to be clear, that was 100% a mistake on their part and a bad idea.
If you're going to increase the AC via subclass, it should be in a manner consistent with other sub classes that provide armor boosts, the way barbarians and monks get it, or even better, by tying into class features. You want me to cast hex as a hex blade? Ok, give me a feature that increases my AC when I am concentrating on hex. That's both thematic, and appropriate.
I don't necessarily disagree that melee Warlocks could fix their AC situation by other means than the subclass granting them Medium Armor Training.
The problem with fixing it through Invocations is that it induces more of an Invocation-tax which is already there with Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Devouring Blade, and Lifedrinker. In the UA material for Warlock they even had Devouring Blade's EAx3 incorporated in the Thirsting Blade Invocation that activated at level 12. They decided against it and split it into two invocations. Furthermore if non-melee Warlocks can pick up great armor through these fix-invocations, you haven't really done Melee Warlocks as much of a service as you have Ranged Warlocks, and at this point it is the Melee Warlock that needs the help. Not to mention it would effectively have to "compete" and compare with Armor of Shadows which is a god awful Invocation because it makes precedence and the bar is low. When the class already have access to Light Armor's 12 + DEX AC the jump to 13 + DEX AC from a free casting of Mage Armor is a very small improvement at the cost of an Invocation.
Adding substantial AC bonuses to the Hexblade subclass also brings in the same issues you see with the Bladesinger and the same requirement for a limit to avoid them becoming too tanky compared to other Martials. However Wizards don't have Armor Training, so the Bladesinger's limit on no-armor is only limiting but doesn't take anything away from them. The Warlocks do have Light Armor, so a no-armor limit is punishing for the Warlock. Not to mention if you were to link that AC bonus to your Hex/Concentration-spell would be a double-whammy on bad luck when a Concentration-break both remove your offense and defense - unlike Bladesinger's Bladesong that is its own effect.
Would that be a good enough reason to abandon the Hex dependency, and make the curse its own thing? Hmm possibly. It would be much less restrictive than making the entire subclass revolve around a Concentration spell. Especially since your class spell list is stock full of Concentration spells for 2024 (32 against 24 at lvl 1-5) and unlike Rogue's assessment I will happily Concentrate on a bunch of them during combat in my Warlock career.
That's the niche these kinds of features fill, and if that doesn't suit you then fortuitously there's quite a few other subclasses you can choose from.
What a reductive and nonsensical response in a thread about feedback to an unreleased product that is specifically looking for feedback. I'd say the people advocating to keep the Hexblade similar to the original has a better case when it comes to: "If you don't like it, go somewhere else."
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
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That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
It wouldn’t make them them the Pinnacle of PotB. Archfey is a subclass with great skirmisher playstyle. It would only make them the pinnacle at stay in melee Warlock without Multiclassing. One level in fighter gives any warlock the same armor, plus a weapon mastery and a fighting style. It actually means that this feature would make multiclassing partially redundant for Hexblade. I would much rather they not update Hexblade than update it without giving it armor or a reason to prefer melee combat.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
You're sort of contradicting yourself there. If other warlocks already manage just fine in melee without medium armor, then giving it to hexblades wouldn't make them far and away the best at it.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
You're sort of contradicting yourself there. If other warlocks already manage just fine in melee without medium armor, then giving it to hexblades wouldn't make them far and away the best at it.
No, I'm not because all the others are limited use rather than static. Medium Armor and a shield means an AC of 19 with 14 DEX; using Mage Armor with that DEX gives 15 AC. A constant 20% decrease in to hit is far and away better than the other options.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
It wouldn’t make them them the Pinnacle of PotB. Archfey is a subclass with great skirmisher playstyle. It would only make them the pinnacle at stay in melee Warlock without Multiclassing. One level in fighter gives any warlock the same armor, plus a weapon mastery and a fighting style. It actually means that this feature would make multiclassing partially redundant for Hexblade. I would much rather they not update Hexblade than update it without giving it armor or a reason to prefer melee combat.
See above- you're asking for a far larger boost to performance than the other features provide. And the existence of Fighter dips really doesn't negate my point so much as highlight why they shouldn't have dropped the verbiage that multiclassing is at the DM's discretion; regardless, expecting them to take into account all possible dip interactions is probably a bridge too far for the dev team, so for the purposes of designing class/subclass features the only consideration is the class itself and other subclass features.
Blade pact is not hexblade only. How on earth do rogues survive with only light armor in melee? It's not a tax.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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i think that not making hexblade a more melee martial focused subclass is in someways questionable as a direction.
i see why they did it, because pact of the blade basically gives every warlock a strong ability to be martial. That said it would still be possible to go even further with it as a subclass and maybe a prefered direction. Also, this was always an issue. As long as the class has eldritch blast built in, its going to be a factor in whether meleeing is needed
But many people are talking about how the design they chose doesnt work, or needs more power or something. I think yall should double down and made it an even cooler magic melee is a different type of feedback than. This class is too weak, or needs more AC, or doesnt function properly.
now i dont think its perfect, and im not sure its the right direction, but this subclass wouldnt be struggling at all next to rogues, monks, rangers or fighters in terms of power/gameplay
giving the class medium armor and shields wouldnt make it more of a martial, it would just
as i said elsewhere, if the goal was making a melee martial, i think hexblade is not ideal, not because it doesnt work with melee, but because it could be much cooler at melee. i agree that it would have been fine to make it a melee martial focused subclass.
that said, eldritch blast is built in, and you can't simply ignore that in subclass design. whatever you add via hexblade is in addition to having one of the best ranged repeatable options in the game (only fighter gets as many attacks, and no one gets d10 repeatable without a feat) And the most effectiveness at combat with a single attribute. Not only are dex weapons weaker and has less options in melee, they also cant repeatedly do d10 damage without a feat. Fighter can compete, but it needs both dex and str to do both at the same time, so it has to give up defense if it wants to go that direction.
they could somehow disable or limit eldritch blast, but its a core part of the class, and many players probably wouldnt be cool with that. Many players like that they arent pushed toward melee as hexblades. So if they arent limiting the ranged potential, and are using the same main stat, they have to include in their calculus that it always has an excelent ranged option.
as far as you evaluating wrathful smite as weak, that doesnt really make sense. its triggered via bonus action and exists on top of your regular attack based damage. Fear is a nice option for applying aoe frightened and control, but it isnt anywhere as useful versus a single target.
fear= give up a turn to cause frightened and make an enemy flee with a 50% chance
wrathful+hex= this turn you can do your entire multiattack stack+ number of attacks*d6+ 3d6+ frightening the creature with a 75% chance.
If you are focusing on combat with one creature there is no competition between these two options. fear is great, but it has a different usecase.
as you say, eldritch smite needs an invocation, and prone is considered a lower teir effect than frightened, in spell design, if there is a damage rider, i would expect the one that gives frightened to be lower than the one that can cause prone. Which brings up something you said, that advantage is harder in 2014, that is definitely not true, there are many more sources of advantage now, and many extend to teamates, like prone. The warlock can prone on hit, and they can stun on hit, and they have the option of taking mastery feats to get more. If a warlock wants to get advantage they have numerous ways.
cone of cold does not compete with steel wind strike because steel wind strike is attack based which the the hexblade is focused on. Essentially steel wind strike's spread is more like, my main target takes more damage,
cone of cold is 8d8 con save,
steel wind strike is attack based, so it can crit, and benefits from advantage or bless, or items that boost spell attack (wand of warmage) (and i too would like it to be more closely tied to a weapon, but everything isnt according to my druthers)
essentially cone of cold has less synergy with attacks, and the hex features. its solid, but steel wind sometimes an improvement for a charachter focused on improving attacks, and gaining benefits when attacking. For example, when ambushing the enemy, (hidden or invisible) steel wind averages 31 damage via advantage. cone of cold with a con save probably averages 26 assuming 45% save chance. And oustide of that, if you add up all the hex on hit benefits, it will be superior damage given 3 targets even without advantage.
that said, based on your post, i can see why in some respects some people might prefer the old spell list. But from my perspective regardless its a very good added spell less for an this type of subclass
feeling like warlock is stealing ranger's shine is a valid emotion, but facts are fact, these are objectively great spells, hexblade is also yucking paladin's yum, but that doesnt change that these are very good spells
Where do you get the 50% chance on Cause Fear and then 75% chance on Wrathful? Cause Fear (and Fear) is a DC13 WIS saving throw, same as Wrathful at level 3. But Wrathful ALSO requires that you hit - well under 2024-rules you first cast Smites when you hit, but for any given round it still applies that you need to hit AC and then the target needs to fail their DC to Frighten them. Per round you're more likely to frighten through Cause Fear/Fear than Wrathful Smite.
Also Cause Fear is the 1st level spell with singular target and upcast for +1 target, and it doesn't include the flee aspect, just the Frighten condition - so target can't move closer and its attacks have DisADV as long as it can see you.
Sure against a singular target where you don't think you'll need defenses like Mirror Image, Blur (as per 2014) or Shield, and it is non-humanoid so Hold Person is not applicable, you may use Wrathful Smite.
When you hit level 5 and presumably picks up EA x2, then against singular enemies that are non-humanoid, and you expect to have a Short Rest afterwards, you're likely to use one or both slots on Smites - sure. If it is humanoid, Hold Person is still a very very good spell at this level.
What are you talking about? There were more ways to gain Advantage in 2014 rules than there are now in 2024 rules. Eldritch Smite haven't changed a bit either and 2014-Hexblade still had both Wrathful and Staggering Smite in their spell list back then. Weapon Mastery with Topple have been introduced but unless the player is building a melee control build you rarely see Topple because it puts ranged companions at DisADV, and the target just spends half their movement to stand on their turn so they don't have the DisADV on attacks.
I wholeheartedly agree that Frighten is a better condition overall than Prone - unless you're a team of melee combatants that don't care about range.
I concede my point. I didn't properly consider that because SWS is attack based you could also get attack-benefits like Critical hits. The rider-effect of the Maneuver and the pseudo-Graze on miss is not really something that swings the pendulum at all for me. The +1d6 from Hex is neat but not great either.
Overall I will agree that SWS is better suited to the UA-Hexblade than what AoE potential I get with Cone of Cold.
And regarding my previous comment that I almost wanted Synaptic Static to be on the list so it could "combo" with the Maneuver for DisADV on next Saving Throw; luckily Warlocks can pick that one up in their own spell list. I missed that initially. We're just going to ignore that Warlock also already have access to Dispel Magic so it being included here is... not really adding anything but +1 Prepared Spell.
I see from the 2014-Hexblade to the UA-Hexblade: You lose out on Medium Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency and you're locked into using your Concentration on Hex to actually get anything from your Subclass - aside from spells. Previously the Hexblade spell list included several good defensive spells that all required Concentration.
The UA-Hexblade is more squishy, have fewer and worse defensive options.
All in all I look at it and say: Why do I want to go into melee? I have to spend a lot of Invocations to be on par with a Fighter on attacks, but I'm less tough. I can do spells but my subclass primarily wants me not to use a bunch of them because they are not Hex.
I could instead use those invocations to pimp out my Eldritch Blast - making myself a ranged character and not in the line of fire. This makes me less likely to be hit and thus less likely to lose Concentration on my spells. I can push enemies around and away from my melee frontliners to allow them greater flexibility. And I don't give anything from the subclass up to do this. I can do other spells than Hex but my subclass primarily wants me not to use a bunch of them.
The 2014-Hexblade had the same investment but it fixed a lot of the toughness issue by adding Medium Armor Prof. and it could be sweetened by a Shield. Then add defensive spells and suddenly you're also quite durable. It costs your spell slots for the most part, making you pretty much on par with a base Fighter. You still have cantrips/Eldritch Blast and the Fighter still have Action Surge and their Subclass. Medium Armor also meant you didn't go quite as MAD and could actually afford to put points into CON, making it your secondary stat. The UA-Hexblade smells a lot like CHA>DEX>CON resulting in less HP, worse Concentration Check and with the new Lifedrinker, also less healing.
And then we're back to: Why bother going melee? The Hexblade subclass previously answered: Because I make you durable enough. The UA-Hexblade... not so much.
Personally I would have preferred if WotC made other on-attack spell-infused attacks similar to Smites instead of just poaching the Paladin's. Both to secure Paladin their exclusivity and for flavor. I do understand the desire to keep the total spell count down and to reuse.
That could have been done by making "generic" spell-infused attacks and then Paladin gets the class feature to add some bells and whistles on top - like converting the damage type to Radiant and that sort. Anyway...
Yes Conjure Barrage and the Smites are fine. Wrathful Smite if nothing but lack of better alternative when you lock up your Concentration.
Why bother going melee? Because it does more damage than eldritch blast in the 2024 version. Hexblade should 100% not provide an armor bonus. Do I think that warlocks in melee need a better armor class? Yes I do. Do I think that extra armor proficiency should be provided by a subclass? No, I do not. Armor needs to be provided by another route so that all subclasses can get it, not just Hexblade. Hexblade should not be the defacto only subclass for blades, and giving it bonus armor proficiency. Just because WotC made a mistake by handing out medium armor and shield proficiency for the 2014 warlock by sticking it on Hexblade, does not mean that they should double down on stupidity and repeat the mistake again. Just to be clear, that was 100% a mistake on their part and a bad idea.
If you're going to increase the AC via subclass, it should be in a manner consistent with other sub classes that provide armor boosts, the way barbarians and monks get it, or even better, by tying into class features. You want me to cast hex as a hex blade? Ok, give me a feature that increases my AC when I am concentrating on hex. That's both thematic, and appropriate.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You give the HEXBLADE melee combat spells and have the word BLADE in the name. Why do none of the subclass features require a BLADE (weapon)? <NOT COUNTING BONUS SPELLS>
That’s exactly right. What we need is an updated version of the original Hexblade—not a complete rework. It’s honestly surprising to see people wanting to fundamentally change a subclass that’s already popular and successful.
If you want something entirely different, then ask for a new subclass—don’t try to replace one that’s already well-established and widely acclaimed.
Since as a Hexblade you are most likely taking the Pact of the blade and the blade related invocations.
As a Hexblade. Have the subclass features build on these invocations.
Add CHA to Armor of Shadows.
Allow 2 Pact weapons with Pact of the blade (able to dual wield 2 Pact of the blade light weapons but will need to give subclass a fighting style)
ALSO........
remove HEX subclass feature and return CURSE for level 3
a subclass cant directly build on options that people may or may not have access to. Its a unique problem for warlock. The closest analog is spells and casters, in such cases they have to give the caster the spell, they cant assume people will take it.
Unlike basing a subclass on say Hunters Mark Spell and Hex Spell. Just assume the player will want to cast it instead of any of their other concentration spells.
There's only a couple other concentration spells that will be consistently worth it for Warlocks or Rangers, and both Hexblade and Rangers in general get free casts of the spells so it's not like they have to use up the same resources they would use on the other concentration spells for this. Is it necessarily the most optimal possible option for the class? Probably not. Does it empower people who prefer to just go straight for attack rolls rather than juggle other spell effects? Yes. That's the niche these kinds of features fill, and if that doesn't suit you then fortuitously there's quite a few other subclasses you can choose from.
A spellcaster with dispel magic can stop the Hexblade from accessing their features (Hex Blade only Warlock to advertise the Hex spell -- Target gets orbiting Weapon when casting Hex --Not when casting hex with this feature)
And just how often do you encounter enemies that cast Dispel Magic during combat? My experience has been rarely if ever. Plus, it's the enemy's Action to Dispel it while it's only a Bonus Action to bring it back online, so unless that was your last use of it (remember that you'll effectively have 3-5 free casts depending on your CHA) you're coming out ahead in action economy.
True, they have removed pretty much all "happenstance"-benefits and locked in that if a subclass interacts with something it needs to provide it previously.
With that being said; there's nothing to prevent them from granting an Invocation through the subclass feature and THEN build on it.
Does it follow the general template set forth by the previous four 2024 Warlock subclasses? By no means. Is it an elegant way to steer Hexblade towards melee rather than ranged? Not really.
Ehh... you're comparing 1d10 (versatile) + CHA + Weapon bonuses versus 1d10 + CHA + Knockback for EB.
Dual-wielding Warlocks may be able to press more damage out, calculation needed. You only have 1 pact weapon, so you only get your main hand to use CHA, whilst the other needs DEX so likely worse on the hit-rate whilst the damage rolls don't matter unless you pick up a Fighting Style (which cannot be done with feats - well not with 2024-feats anyway).
There are more ways to improve your weapon damage than to improve EB damage, that's true. Fighting Style, Weapon Mastery to name a few.
Sorlocks still beat out both and Warlock only needs 2 levels to get EB fully kitted and then can go full Sorc for the remainder. Quickened Spell still works to double your EBs. Or if your DM is very generous just picking up an Illusionist's Bracers to copy a cantrip by using a BA.
I don't necessarily disagree that melee Warlocks could fix their AC situation by other means than the subclass granting them Medium Armor Training.
The problem with fixing it through Invocations is that it induces more of an Invocation-tax which is already there with Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Devouring Blade, and Lifedrinker. In the UA material for Warlock they even had Devouring Blade's EAx3 incorporated in the Thirsting Blade Invocation that activated at level 12. They decided against it and split it into two invocations.
Furthermore if non-melee Warlocks can pick up great armor through these fix-invocations, you haven't really done Melee Warlocks as much of a service as you have Ranged Warlocks, and at this point it is the Melee Warlock that needs the help.
Not to mention it would effectively have to "compete" and compare with Armor of Shadows which is a god awful Invocation because it makes precedence and the bar is low. When the class already have access to Light Armor's 12 + DEX AC the jump to 13 + DEX AC from a free casting of Mage Armor is a very small improvement at the cost of an Invocation.
Adding substantial AC bonuses to the Hexblade subclass also brings in the same issues you see with the Bladesinger and the same requirement for a limit to avoid them becoming too tanky compared to other Martials. However Wizards don't have Armor Training, so the Bladesinger's limit on no-armor is only limiting but doesn't take anything away from them. The Warlocks do have Light Armor, so a no-armor limit is punishing for the Warlock. Not to mention if you were to link that AC bonus to your Hex/Concentration-spell would be a double-whammy on bad luck when a Concentration-break both remove your offense and defense - unlike Bladesinger's Bladesong that is its own effect.
Would that be a good enough reason to abandon the Hex dependency, and make the curse its own thing? Hmm possibly. It would be much less restrictive than making the entire subclass revolve around a Concentration spell. Especially since your class spell list is stock full of Concentration spells for 2024 (32 against 24 at lvl 1-5) and unlike Rogue's assessment I will happily Concentrate on a bunch of them during combat in my Warlock career.
And just because you had to say it:
What a reductive and nonsensical response in a thread about feedback to an unreleased product that is specifically looking for feedback.
I'd say the people advocating to keep the Hexblade similar to the original has a better case when it comes to: "If you don't like it, go somewhere else."
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
It wouldn’t make them them the Pinnacle of PotB. Archfey is a subclass with great skirmisher playstyle. It would only make them the pinnacle at stay in melee Warlock without Multiclassing. One level in fighter gives any warlock the same armor, plus a weapon mastery and a fighting style. It actually means that this feature would make multiclassing partially redundant for Hexblade. I would much rather they not update Hexblade than update it without giving it armor or a reason to prefer melee combat.
You're sort of contradicting yourself there. If other warlocks already manage just fine in melee without medium armor, then giving it to hexblades wouldn't make them far and away the best at it.
No, I'm not because all the others are limited use rather than static. Medium Armor and a shield means an AC of 19 with 14 DEX; using Mage Armor with that DEX gives 15 AC. A constant 20% decrease in to hit is far and away better than the other options.
See above- you're asking for a far larger boost to performance than the other features provide. And the existence of Fighter dips really doesn't negate my point so much as highlight why they shouldn't have dropped the verbiage that multiclassing is at the DM's discretion; regardless, expecting them to take into account all possible dip interactions is probably a bridge too far for the dev team, so for the purposes of designing class/subclass features the only consideration is the class itself and other subclass features.
No it's not.
Blade pact is not hexblade only. How on earth do rogues survive with only light armor in melee? It's not a tax.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha