I posted this on reddit, but figured why not add it here since its dif community, feel ree to ask me any questions i may not have covered.

And again they make a Psion that is not a a psionic. They've made it a caster with a spell list and some extra's on top. It looks like an unholy cross between an Aberrant sorceror and a Wizard.

 Sorry no. They should look at how 2nd edition did it and take a lesson from that. Not this.

Quote from Lia_Black >>

Would this class work better if it were more like the Half Caster Warlock UA and added in a lot more Disciplines that utilize the Psionic Mechanic more? Seems to me that it would help it stand out from Wizard and Sorcerer more. 

Just a thought

I totally agree with this idea. As a caster the Psion is generic and meh. As a separate class it could be very interesting. Allow Disciplines to bring in specific spells. Also include Disciplines that modify psychic abilities. At level 14 a Psion should be able to ignore force and psychic damage resistance and treat immunity to those two damage types as resistance. At 18th level a discipline  could allow a Psion to Ignore immunity an resistance for force and psychic damage types. Sub-classes could add even more psionic dice and specific disciplines for that sub-class. 

Also there should be disaplines that eventually get rid of material components even if they have a cost, verbal components, and somatic components. A Psion should never have a spell component pouch, their minds are all they need. Maybe a psionically charged crystal but that would be it.

I wasn’t going to post this as I’m 100% sure the math is off. I basically tried to simplify spell point variant, and allow more flexibility with how you how you cast while still making it different enough that you don’t feel like just another caster. 

LEVEL 1: PSIONIC POWER You harbor a wellspring of psionic energy within yourself. This energy is represented by your Psionic Energy Dice. Your Psion level determines the die size and number of Psionic Energy Dice you have, as shown in the Energy Die and Number of Dice columns of the Psion Features table. Your Psionic Energy Dice are used to enhance or fuel certain Psion features. You start with two such features: Telekinetic Propel and Telepathic Connection, each of which is detailed below. Some of your powers expend the Psionic Energy Dice, as specified in a power’s description, and you can’t use a power if it requires you to use a die when all your Psionic Energy Dice are expended. You regain a number equal to half your Proficiency Bonus rounded up of expended Psionic Energy Die when you finish a Short Rest, and you regain all of them when you finish a Long Rest. Some features that use Psionic Energy Dice require your target to make a saving throw. The save DC equals the spell save DC from this class’s Psychic Spellcasting feature. 

Telekinetic Propel. As a Bonus Action, choose one Large or smaller creature other than you that you can see within 30 feet of yourself, and then roll one Psionic Energy Die. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed or pulled (your

yourself equal to 5 times the number rolled. The die is expended only if the target fails the saving throw. 

Telepathic Connection. You have telepathy with a range of 10 feet. As a Bonus Action, you can expend one Psionic Energy Die and roll it. For a number of minutes equal to your Psion level, the range of your telepathy increases by a number of feet equal to 10 times the number rolled. 

LEVEL 1: PSYCHIC SPELLCASTING You have learned how to channel magical energy using the power of your mind. The information below details how you use those rules with Psion spells, which appear in the Psion spell list later in the class’s description. 

Psi Points. You use Psi Points to fuel your Psion spells. You have a number of Psi Points listed in the Psi Point column of the Psion Feature table. You regain all Psi Points when you complete a long rest. Psi Points can only be used to cast your Psion spells, but you may also cast your Psion spells using any spell slots you may have. To cast a spell you expend a number of Psi Points equal to the spell’s level. This does mean it is impossible to cast a spell at a higher level. This weakness is addressed with the Muster Power feature gained at 5th level. You may only cast one spell per turn that expends Psi Points.

Cantrips. You know two Psion cantrips of your choice. Minor Illusion and Telekinetic Fling are recommended. Whenever you gain a Psion level, you can replace one of your cantrips from this feature with another Psion cantrip of your choice. When you reach Psion levels 10 and 14, you learn another Psion cantrip of your choice, as shown in the Cantrips column of the Psion Features table. 

Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature. To start, choose four level 1 Psion spells. Charm Person, Command, Dissonant Whispers, and Mage Armor are recommended. The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Psion levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Psion Features table. Whenever that number increases, choose additional Psion spells until the number of spells on your list matches the number in the table. The chosen spells must be of a level of your Psychic Spell Max Level or lower. For example, if you’re a level 3 Psion, your list of prepared spells can include six Psion spells of levels 1 and 2 in any combination. If another Psion feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Psion spells for you. 

Changing Your Prepared Spells. Whenever you gain a Psion level, you can replace one spell on your list with another Psion spell of an eligible level. 

Spellcasting Ability. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your Psion spells. 

Psionic Spellcasting. When you cast a Psion spell, that spell doesn’t require a Somatic, Verbal or Material component, even if the spell includes “S”, “V”, or “M” in its “Components” entry, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. 

LEVEL 1: SIMPLE TELEKINESIS You know the Mage Hand cantrip. You can make the spectral hand Invisible when you cast it. You can replace one of your attacks to make an Unarmed Strike with the spectral hand against a target within 5ft of the hand. It uses your Int modifier for DC, Attack and Damage rolls and deals Force damage. Additionally your spectral hand can carry up to 15lbs. The weight it can carry increases when you reach specific levels in this class, 5th (20lbs), 11th(25lbs), and 17th (30lbs)

LEVEL 2: PSIONIC DISCIPLINE You learn further psionic techniques that are fueled by your Psionic Energy Dice. You gain three disciplines of your choice, such as Expanded Awareness and Id Insinuation. Disciplines are described in the “Psionic Discipline Options” section later in this class’s description. You can use only one Discipline each turn and only once per turn unless otherwise noted in one of those options. Whenever you gain a Psion level, you can replace one of your Psionic Discipline options with one you don’t know. You gain three more options at Psion level 10 and three more at Psion level 17. 

LEVEL 2: PSIONIC MODES You have honed your psionic powers to act as both a shield and a weapon in battle. As a Bonus Action, you can choose one of the following modes, granting you certain benefits for 1 minute or until you use this feature again: 

Attack Mode. Damage from your weapon attacks, Psion spells, and Psion features ignores Resistance to Psychic damage. In addition, when you roll damage for a spell, you can expend one Psionic Energy Die to reroll a number of damage dice up to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one), and you must use the new rolls. 

Defense Mode. You have Resistance to Psychic damage. In addition, when you fail an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma saving throw, you can take a Reaction to expend one Psionic Energy Die; roll the Psionic Energy Die and add the number rolled to the saving throw, potentially turning a failure into a success. 

You can use this feature once, and you regain its use when you finish a Short or Long rest.

Sense Mode. You can see everything within your telepathy range even if something would block line of sight, obscure vision, or cause blindness and you can see Invisible creatures and objects within this range. In addition when a creature successfully saves against one of your Psion spells or features, you can take a Reaction to expend one Psionic Energy Die, roll it and regain a number of Psi Points equal to roll up to the spell’s level.

????  Mode. When you attempt to enter this Mode roll a d4. The mode you enter depends on the number you roll. 1. Attack Mode 2. Defense Mode 3. Sense Mode 4. Perfect Mode. If you roll a 4 and enter Perfect Mode you have all the benefits of the other 3 modes. In addition while in Perfect mode you gain a special D4 Psionic Energy Die at the start of each of your turns. When your Mode ends you lose any D4 Psionic Energy Dice that weren’t expended.  

LEVEL 3: PSION SUBCLASS You gain a Psion subclass of your choice. The Metamorph, Psi Warper, Psykinetic, and Telepath subclasses are detailed after this class’s description. A subclass is a specialization that grants you features at certain Psion levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Psion level or lower. 

LEVEL 5: MUSTER POWER- When you cast a spell using Psi Points you may expend a number of Energy Dice up to your Proficiency Bonus. You treat the spell as if it were cast with a spell slot of a number of levels higher than the spell equal to the number of Energy Die you expended. This allows you to effectively cast a spell at a higher level than your Psychic Spell Max Level and even 9th Level. Example: A 5th Level Psion cast Animate Dead and expends 3 Energy Dice to Muster Power, they effectively cast Animate Dead with a 6th level spell slot allowing them to animate or reassert control of up to 7 undead creatures. 

LEVEL 7: PSIONIC SURGE As a bonus action, you can expend one of your Hit Point Dice and regain your expended use of Psionic Modes. In addition, after you roll one or more Psionic Energy Dice, you can expend one of your Hit Point Dice and treat any roll of 1, 2, or 3 on those Psionic Energy Dice as a 4. 

LEVEL 9: WILD TALENT FEAT You gain a Wild Talent Feat of your choice even if you have already taken one. This Feat counts as a general feat for you.

LEVEL 11: AWAKENED POWER 6TH LEVEL SPELLS You prepare two 6th level spells from the psion spell list. You can cast one of them once without expending Psi Points. You may also expend 15 Psi Points to cast either spell. You regain the ability to cast a spell without expending Psi Points when you complete a long rest. You may change one Awakened Power spell of a level you can cast for one of the same level when you complete a long rest.

LEVEL 13: AP 7TH LEVEL SPELLS You prepare two 7th level spells from the psion spell list. You can cast one of them once without expending Psi Points. You may also expend 20 Psi Points to cast either spell. You regain the ability to cast a spell without expending Psi Points when you complete a long rest. You may change one Awakened Power spell of a level you can cast for one of the same level when you complete a long rest.

LEVEL 15: AP 8TH LEVEL SPELLS You prepare two 8th level spells from the psion spell list. You can cast one of them once without expending Psi Points. You may also expend 35 Psi Points to cast either spell. You regain the ability to cast a spell without expending Psi Points when you complete a long rest. You may change one Awakened Power spell of a level you can cast for one of the same level when you complete a long rest.

LEVEL 17: AP 9TH LEVEL SPELLS You prepare two 9th level spells from the psion spell list. You can cast one of them once without expending Psi Points. You may also expend 45 Psi Points to cast either spell. You regain the ability to cast a spell without expending Psi Points when you complete a long rest. You may change one Awakened Power spell of a level you can cast for one of the same level when you complete a long rest.

LEVEL 18: ENKINDLED LIFEFORCE Once per turn, when you expend one Psionic Energy Die and roll it for a Psion feature or Psionic Discipline, you can expend two of your Hit Point Dice to roll two additional Psionic Energy Dice and add the numbers rolled to the total. 

LEVEL 19: EPIC BOON You gain an Epic Boon feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. Boon of Energy Resistance is recommended. 

LEVEL 20: PSIONIC PEAK You have reached the pinnacle of understanding of you Psionic powers. You gain the following:

Psionic Restoration If you roll initiative and have less than Energy Dice you have 4 Energy Dice.

Near Perfect If you decide to roll ???? Mode you may use a D6 instead of a D4, you go into Perfect Mode on a 4-6. 

Mode Flow If you are in Attack Mode, Defense Mode, or Sense Mode you may use a bonus action to switch to another one of those Modes. This does not reset the 1 minute duration of the Psionic Mode.

Additional Psionic Disciplines

Brain Freeze When a creature enters your telepathy range for the first time on their turn, you can take a Reaction to roll one Psionic Energy Die and force the creature to make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the target’s Speed is reduced to 0 feet and it subtracts the number rolled from the next roll to heal it before the end of its next turn. The die is expended only if the creature fails the saving throw.

Mind Fog When you deal Psychic damage to a creature you can expend an Energy Die and roll it. The creature gains the poison condition until the end of its next turn and subtracts the roll from its next ability check before the end of its next turn. A creature can use an action to roll an Intelligence save against your spellcasting DC to remove the poisoned condition. 

Telekinetic Assault When you hit with an unarmed strike using your Invisible Spectral Hand from Simple Telekinesis you can expend one Energy Die and roll it. The target takes force damage equal to the roll. 

Unnerving Reaction When you roll initiative with Disadvantage you can expend an Energy Die, roll it and add it to the result of your initiative roll. 

Vector Control When you are hit by a ranged attack roll you may take a Reaction to expend an Energy Die and roll it. You subtract the roll from the attack roll, possibly turning a hit into a miss. 

Psion Subclasses

Oddly not much has to be done to make them work with this no spell slot base class. Obviously any feature that says you can cast without expending a spell slot would be changed to Psi Points. 

Metamorph has no changes.

Psi Warper has the spell slot to Psi point wording change for its level 3 teleportation feature. Also increase level 10 features to 60ft.

Psykinetic needs an additional level 3 feature. 

LEVEL 3: COMBAT TELEKINESIS You can cast Mage Hand as a bonus action. If it is ever more than 30 ft away from you it doesn’t vanish, instead it teleports within 5 feet of you. When you make an Unarmed Strike with your invisible spectral hand from Simple Telekinesis you can use 1d10 instead of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. This damage increases to 2d10 at 5th, 3d10 at 11th, and 4d10 at 17th.

Telepath 3rd level Telepathic Hub range is 30 feet. 10th level Telepathic Bolstering is 60 feet and add this sentence. Additionally when you use Telepathic Connection to extend the range of your telepathy its range increases by 20 times the number rolled on the die. 

For me it comes down to this... Psion vs Psion. If they can't capture the concept of a psychic battle and do it well, there's not enough to differentiate a Psion from a spellcaster. Expecially when you specifically make them a spellcaster.

Scenario: The party is facing down Mind Flayers in their lair. While the physical battle rages, the Psion is engaging Illithids on the Astral Plane, mind vs minds. The Illithids attempt to forcibly smash their way through the Psion's mind shield, but the Psion forms an impregnable tower of willpower around herself. She probes their psychic defenses with sensitive tendrils of thought. Finding a weakness in one of the Mind Flayers' shields she punctures it with a lance of psionic energy and steals a memory of a fearsome foe. Summoning an astral construct with reserves of psionic energy from her ego, she shapes it into the likeness of a Death Tyrant and launches it at the Illithids' astral forms. Using their own emotions against them, the telepathic beast shreds their minds and drains their intellect with irresistible beams of fear and despair. Back in the material world, the Mind Flayers collapse to the ground like marionettes with their strings cut, nothing left but soulless husks.

In this scenario not a single spell is cast. No elaborate gestures or gutteral utterances. The only limits on her abilities are the psionic skills at her command and the psychic energy she can control with her iron willpower (Wisdom), her clever creativity and sharp intellect (Intelligence), her forceful ego and deceptive charm (Charisma), and even her very lifeforce (Constitution).

She's not limited to psychic battle, though. She has incredible control over her own body to counteract poisons and heal damage and with a touch she can exert control over the body of another nearly as easily. She can raise shields of telekinetic force to deflect a barrage of arrows, even grabbing them with her mind and launching them at the enemy leader. At the last, when she is surrounded by an army of foes she laughs and teleports herself well out of range of the strongest bowman.

That's the Psion I want to see. At least a high level one.

Quote from BlueBard_bluegeek >>

For me it comes down to this... Psion vs Psion. If they can't capture the concept of a psychic battle and do it well, there's not enough to differentiate a Psion from a spellcaster. Expecially when you specifically make them a spellcaster.

Scenario: The party is facing down Mind Flayers in their lair. While the physical battle rages, the Psion is engaging Illithids on the Astral Plane, mind vs minds. The Illithids attempt to forcibly smash their way through the Psion's mind shield, but the Psion forms an impregnable tower of willpower around herself. She probes their psychic defenses with sensitive tendrils of thought. Finding a weakness in one of the Mind Flayers' shields she punctures it with a lance of psionic energy and steals a memory of a fearsome foe. Summoning an astral construct with reserves of psionic energy from her ego, she shapes it into the likeness of a Death Tyrant and launches it at the Illithids' astral forms. Using their own emotions against them, the telepathic beast shreds their minds and drains their intellect with irresistible beams of fear and despair. Back in the material world, the Mind Flayers collapse to the ground like marionettes with their strings cut, nothing left but soulless husks.

In this scenario not a single spell is cast. No elaborate gestures or gutteral utterances. The only limits on her abilities are the psionic skills at her command and the psychic energy she can control with her iron willpower (Wisdom), her clever creativity and sharp intellect (Intelligence), her forceful ego and deceptive charm (Charisma), and even her very lifeforce (Constitution).

She's not limited to psychic battle, though. She has incredible control over her own body to counteract poisons and heal damage and with a touch she can exert control over the body of another nearly as easily. She can raise shields of telekinetic force to deflect a barrage of arrows, even grabbing them with her mind and launching them at the enemy leader. At the last, when she is surrounded by an army of foes she laughs and teleports herself well out of range of the strongest bowman.

That's the Psion I want to see. At least a high level one.

Illithids are a rare example of high intelligence monsters. What I could easily envision happening is psion walks up to a stupid tarrasque, mind controls it, win. Admittedly legendary resistances help, but monsters are supposed to succeed on many of their saving throws without relying on a limited number of legendary resistances.

Also, your scenario would be very difficult to represent mechanically.

Quote from Jurmondur >>

Quote from BlueBard_bluegeek >>

For me it comes down to this... Psion vs Psion. If they can't capture the concept of a psychic battle and do it well, there's not enough to differentiate a Psion from a spellcaster. Expecially when you specifically make them a spellcaster.

Scenario: The party is facing down Mind Flayers in their lair. While the physical battle rages, the Psion is engaging Illithids on the Astral Plane, mind vs minds. The Illithids attempt to forcibly smash their way through the Psion's mind shield, but the Psion forms an impregnable tower of willpower around herself. She probes their psychic defenses with sensitive tendrils of thought. Finding a weakness in one of the Mind Flayers' shields she punctures it with a lance of psionic energy and steals a memory of a fearsome foe. Summoning an astral construct with reserves of psionic energy from her ego, she shapes it into the likeness of a Death Tyrant and launches it at the Illithids' astral forms. Using their own emotions against them, the telepathic beast shreds their minds and drains their intellect with irresistible beams of fear and despair. Back in the material world, the Mind Flayers collapse to the ground like marionettes with their strings cut, nothing left but soulless husks.

In this scenario not a single spell is cast. No elaborate gestures or gutteral utterances. The only limits on her abilities are the psionic skills at her command and the psychic energy she can control with her iron willpower (Wisdom), her clever creativity and sharp intellect (Intelligence), her forceful ego and deceptive charm (Charisma), and even her very lifeforce (Constitution).

She's not limited to psychic battle, though. She has incredible control over her own body to counteract poisons and heal damage and with a touch she can exert control over the body of another nearly as easily. She can raise shields of telekinetic force to deflect a barrage of arrows, even grabbing them with her mind and launching them at the enemy leader. At the last, when she is surrounded by an army of foes she laughs and teleports herself well out of range of the strongest bowman.

That's the Psion I want to see. At least a high level one.

Illithids are a rare example of high intelligence monsters. What I could easily envision happening is psion walks up to a stupid tarrasque, mind controls it, win. Admittedly legendary resistances help, but monsters are supposed to succeed on many of their saving throws without relying on a limited number of legendary resistances.

Also, your scenario would be very difficult to represent mechanically.

 It would be fairly simple to limit a *non-spell* ability to be less or non effective vs unintelligent creatures. Or to allow psychic defenses that *don't* depend on high intelligence or psionic ability. Just having a high amount of hit points is a defense against psychic damage. And in my scenario I mentioned multiple base abilities that not only help the Psion but could also help a non-psionic creature defend themselves to some degree against certain disciplines. Both Strength and Dexterity could defend against telekinetic attacks as well. And by definition, almost everything a Psion does is a Concentration ability. The Psion might be able to concentrate on more than one thing at a time, but it would be progressively more difficult and draining to do so.

But that only works if you treat Psionics as having its own unique set of rules that duplicate the *effects* of certain spells, but aren't spells or even rely on magic. Which is the point.

If you make the Psion just another spellcaster, then you are absolutely correct; My scenario is completely unbalanced against a wide range of monsters and mechanically difficult to manage. Which is just another argument that they shouldn't be spellcasters.

PS. In the example you gave a mid-level Wizard could *attempt* to the same thing as the Psion and control the monster. More easily in fact, if said monster could use its high constitution and hit dice to resist a Psion's attack.

Whatever. I'm not willing to concede that psionics is just a different kind of magical spell and works exactly the same. The game designers actually concede that they *are* different because they have to modify psionic spells to remove the spell components and then pile a mishmash of re-tooled, old-school concepts on top of that and pretend that it's somehow better than D&D's other failed attempts to incorporate psionic abilities into the game. It's better for *them* certainly. Repackage a bunch of spells into a new spell list and throw on a variation of the older version of the psionics rules and job done. They don't have to think too hard about how to balance the class and they can pat themselves on the back that they paid homage to the old-school psionics user. Except they didn't because it was available to every class.

Psionis are just a different magic. The problem I see with this UA is that it ends up feeling like the same magic that we have had since the beginning of 5e. After doing multiple mock ups of how a Psion could play as half caster and with psi points instead of spell slots I believe half caster is the best. Honestly the only thing that can make Psionics different than the magic we are accustomed to is to use a different mechanic to achieve near equivalent power. None of my mock ups achieved that because I want focused on balancing them, just showing the types of mechanics I believed would work to achieve the goal. 

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Psionis are just a different magic. The problem I see with this UA is that it ends up feeling like the same magic that we have had since the beginning of 5e. After doing multiple mock ups of how a Psion could play as half caster and with psi points instead of spell slots I believe half caster is the best. Honestly the only thing that can make Psionics different than the magic we are accustomed to is to use a different mechanic to achieve near equivalent power. None of my mock ups achieved that because I want focused on balancing them, just showing the types of mechanics I believed would work to achieve the goal. 

 If you ever have the chance to find the 2nd edition Complete Psionics Handbook, have a look. It is not similar to a spell caster.

I’ll say again the mechanics are the only thing that are different. Moving stuff with your mind, casting a spell, using the force,  or blasting something with a ki blast is all just magic. With magic being supernatural or preternatural phenomena. The mechanics of how you achieve that is what is important. In 5e 90% of what would make someone psionic is covered by spells. This was not true in 2nd edition. The problem is that in 5e a Psion class covers the same roles as Wizard and sorcerer. So if you just make it full caster what design purpose does it serve. 
Also just so you know the 2e psionic system is mechanically just an over complicated spell system that uses points and calls the “spells” powers. You could also reverse it and say that the 5e spell casting system is a simplified psionic system that uses spell slots and calls the “powers” spells. 
Niether of the systems directly effect the fantasy you want to achieve. The only real argument against the UA Psion is that it is a new class that doesn’t offer anything new to the game. It’s more reliant on spellcasting than Psionic Energy Dice which is supposed to differentiate it from Wizards and Sorcerers. If there is going to be a new class I would want something that feels mechanically different, but I would never suggest going back to the overly complicated power system of 2e. 

Quote from BlueBard_bluegeek >>

Quote from Jurmondur >>

Quote from BlueBard_bluegeek >>

For me it comes down to this... Psion vs Psion. If they can't capture the concept of a psychic battle and do it well, there's not enough to differentiate a Psion from a spellcaster. Expecially when you specifically make them a spellcaster.

Scenario: The party is facing down Mind Flayers in their lair. While the physical battle rages, the Psion is engaging Illithids on the Astral Plane, mind vs minds. The Illithids attempt to forcibly smash their way through the Psion's mind shield, but the Psion forms an impregnable tower of willpower around herself. She probes their psychic defenses with sensitive tendrils of thought. Finding a weakness in one of the Mind Flayers' shields she punctures it with a lance of psionic energy and steals a memory of a fearsome foe. Summoning an astral construct with reserves of psionic energy from her ego, she shapes it into the likeness of a Death Tyrant and launches it at the Illithids' astral forms. Using their own emotions against them, the telepathic beast shreds their minds and drains their intellect with irresistible beams of fear and despair. Back in the material world, the Mind Flayers collapse to the ground like marionettes with their strings cut, nothing left but soulless husks.

In this scenario not a single spell is cast. No elaborate gestures or gutteral utterances. The only limits on her abilities are the psionic skills at her command and the psychic energy she can control with her iron willpower (Wisdom), her clever creativity and sharp intellect (Intelligence), her forceful ego and deceptive charm (Charisma), and even her very lifeforce (Constitution).

She's not limited to psychic battle, though. She has incredible control over her own body to counteract poisons and heal damage and with a touch she can exert control over the body of another nearly as easily. She can raise shields of telekinetic force to deflect a barrage of arrows, even grabbing them with her mind and launching them at the enemy leader. At the last, when she is surrounded by an army of foes she laughs and teleports herself well out of range of the strongest bowman.

That's the Psion I want to see. At least a high level one.

Illithids are a rare example of high intelligence monsters. What I could easily envision happening is psion walks up to a stupid tarrasque, mind controls it, win. Admittedly legendary resistances help, but monsters are supposed to succeed on many of their saving throws without relying on a limited number of legendary resistances.

Also, your scenario would be very difficult to represent mechanically.

 It would be fairly simple to limit a *non-spell* ability to be less or non effective vs unintelligent creatures. Or to allow psychic defenses that *don't* depend on high intelligence or psionic ability. Just having a high amount of hit points is a defense against psychic damage. And in my scenario I mentioned multiple base abilities that not only help the Psion but could also help a non-psionic creature defend themselves to some degree against certain disciplines. Both Strength and Dexterity could defend against telekinetic attacks as well. And by definition, almost everything a Psion does is a Concentration ability. The Psion might be able to concentrate on more than one thing at a time, but it would be progressively more difficult and draining to do so.

But that only works if you treat Psionics as having its own unique set of rules that duplicate the *effects* of certain spells, but aren't spells or even rely on magic. Which is the point.

If you make the Psion just another spellcaster, then you are absolutely correct; My scenario is completely unbalanced against a wide range of monsters and mechanically difficult to manage. Which is just another argument that they shouldn't be spellcasters.

PS. In the example you gave a mid-level Wizard could *attempt* to the same thing as the Psion and control the monster. More easily in fact, if said monster could use its high constitution and hit dice to resist a Psion's attack.

Dominate monster is an eighth level spell, so it can only be cast 3 times in a fight, half the amount of LRs a tarrasque has, whereas you want a psion to be able to, "...exert control over the body of another nearly as easily [as their own]." Am I wrong to assume that can be done a few more times than 6?

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

I’ll say again the mechanics are the only thing that are different. Moving stuff with your mind, casting a spell, using the force,  or blasting something with a ki blast is all just magic. With magic being supernatural or preternatural phenomena. The mechanics of how you achieve that is what is important. In 5e 90% of what would make someone psionic is covered by spells. This was not true in 2nd edition. The problem is that in 5e a Psion class covers the same roles as Wizard and sorcerer. So if you just make it full caster what design purpose does it serve. 
Also just so you know the 2e psionic system is mechanically just an over complicated spell system that uses points and calls the “spells” powers. You could also reverse it and say that the 5e spell casting system is a simplified psionic system that uses spell slots and calls the “powers” spells. 
Niether of the systems directly effect the fantasy you want to achieve. The only real argument against the UA Psion is that it is a new class that doesn’t offer anything new to the game. It’s more reliant on spellcasting than Psionic Energy Dice which is supposed to differentiate it from Wizards and Sorcerers. If there is going to be a new class I would want something that feels mechanically different, but I would never suggest going back to the overly complicated power system of 2e. 

 It was not that complicated. It was a lot more streamlined than mixing psi dice with spell casting levels. This Psion is a clunky hybrid that doesn't differentiate itself from a regular spell caster. Where 2nd editions was its own thing. 

Quote from Nechaef >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

I’ll say again the mechanics are the only thing that are different. Moving stuff with your mind, casting a spell, using the force,  or blasting something with a ki blast is all just magic. With magic being supernatural or preternatural phenomena. The mechanics of how you achieve that is what is important. In 5e 90% of what would make someone psionic is covered by spells. This was not true in 2nd edition. The problem is that in 5e a Psion class covers the same roles as Wizard and sorcerer. So if you just make it full caster what design purpose does it serve. 
Also just so you know the 2e psionic system is mechanically just an over complicated spell system that uses points and calls the “spells” powers. You could also reverse it and say that the 5e spell casting system is a simplified psionic system that uses spell slots and calls the “powers” spells. 
Niether of the systems directly effect the fantasy you want to achieve. The only real argument against the UA Psion is that it is a new class that doesn’t offer anything new to the game. It’s more reliant on spellcasting than Psionic Energy Dice which is supposed to differentiate it from Wizards and Sorcerers. If there is going to be a new class I would want something that feels mechanically different, but I would never suggest going back to the overly complicated power system of 2e. 

 It was not that complicated. It was a lot more streamlined than mixing psi dice with spell casting levels. This Psion is a clunky hybrid that doesn't differentiate itself from a regular spell caster. Where 2nd editions was its own thing. 

 How can you say it was more streamlined when you had sciences and disciplines to gain and you had to keep track of points? All the disciplines and sciences have to be written out, which is illy when there are already spells that cover 90% of them. I’ve never played 2e. I started in 3e, but I’m sorry I looked it up and it is not more streamlined for 5e than the UA Psion. I don’t like the UA Psion, but the last thing I want is them to try to patchwork 2e design into 5e. That wouldn’t work. 

Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.

Quote from Nechaef >>

Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.

 100%. There are a few aspects that could have made this class feel like a psionicist but IMO they totally missed the mark by making them spellcasters in the usual D&D sense. I love playing a Wizard but in many ways they are the "glass cannons" and spell slots end up being a limiting factor only mitigated by the introduction of the damage-scaling combat cantrips available in the modern editions. They have a distinct feel to play and that's not how I would want a psionicist to play. To be worthwhile it needs to be different, and it's not. Bolting on energy dice is just an over-complication, not a feature. The game already has plenty of spellcaster variants and I'm certain they will continue to proliferate.

For a "Psion" to feel like a psionics user, it would need to lean into the concept of "Mind Over (Fill in the blank). Mind over Body, Mind over Matter, Mind over Mind, etc. WotC is treating it like a mechanical effect ("Cast Detect Thoughts") instead of an inborn talent honed by skill and practice. Cast this spell, get X result. I'd like something more nuanced than that. Reading someone's mind should feel more like [ Psionic Ability + Psionic Skill ] vs [ Target's resistance + Difficulty ], roll vs DC [ X ] to succeed. They shouldn't be limited to doing it a few times a day like a Wizard would. Yes, there should be some limiting factor but spell slots don't feel the right way to do it.

I don't blame them for not wanting to invent a whole new "magic" system and reinventing mechanical effects (spells) that already exist in the game. Honestly, I get it. But if that's all the effort they want to put into it, they should've just modeled the mechanics off of either the Sorcerer or the Warlock class and kept it simple and not pretend to have done something different.

Quote from BlueBard_bluegeek >>

Quote from Nechaef >>

Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.

 100%. There are a few aspects that could have made this class feel like a psionicist but IMO they totally missed the mark by making them spellcasters in the usual D&D sense. I love playing a Wizard but in many ways they are the "glass cannons" and spell slots end up being a limiting factor only mitigated by the introduction of the damage-scaling combat cantrips available in the modern editions. They have a distinct feel to play and that's not how I would want a psionicist to play. To be worthwhile it needs to be different, and it's not. Bolting on energy dice is just an over-complication, not a feature. The game already has plenty of spellcaster variants and I'm certain they will continue to proliferate.

For a "Psion" to feel like a psionics user, it would need to lean into the concept of "Mind Over (Fill in the blank). Mind over Body, Mind over Matter, Mind over Mind, etc. WotC is treating it like a mechanical effect ("Cast Detect Thoughts") instead of an inborn talent honed by skill and practice. Cast this spell, get X result. I'd like something more nuanced than that. Reading someone's mind should feel more like [ Psionic Ability + Psionic Skill ] vs [ Target's resistance + Difficulty ], roll vs DC [ X ] to succeed. They shouldn't be limited to doing it a few times a day like a Wizard would. Yes, there should be some limiting factor but spell slots don't feel the right way to do it.

I don't blame them for not wanting to invent a whole new "magic" system and reinventing mechanical effects (spells) that already exist in the game. Honestly, I get it. But if that's all the effort they want to put into it, they should've just modeled the mechanics off of either the Sorcerer or the Warlock class and kept it simple and not pretend to have done something different.

 

Yeah, the Psion as given does feel like something you could reproduce with a Sorcerer; the energy dice just adds complexity without achieving that much.

I can understand why they used spells. I mean, if you decided you wanted a system of 'per day' powers, by the time you had defined the parameters of those powers and how many times they could be used then...well, you would end up with the existing spellcasting system anyway. No point reinventing the wheel.

But I would still like to see a version of the Psion that's only a half-caster, where the role of Psionic Disciplines is massively expanded instead (a bit like Warlock invocations perhaps), with more of a 'tree' of level-gated Disciplines.

Some Psionic Disciplines could add lower level spells slots or give you a higher-level spell + spell slot, allowing access to spell levels a half-caster wouldn't normally reach. That way, if you wanted to lean heavily into spellcasting (and make people's heads explode with Psychic Scream) you could. But other Psionic Disciplines could, as others have said, just give straight up psychic powers (perhaps "boostable" using energy dice) or build on some of psychic-based spells. E.g:

"Psychic Defense: You have resistance to Psychic damage. Whenever you fail an Int, Wis or Cha saving throw you may expend and roll a Psionic Energy Die and add the result, potentially turning the failure into a success"

"Enhanced Mind Sliver: Whenever you cast Mind Sliver you may add your Int modifier to the damage roll. In addition, whenever you cause damage with Mind Sliver you may expend and roll a Psionic Damage Die. The target subtracts that number from their next Saving Throw instead of the normal d4".

Quote from RJP1973 >>

Quote from BlueBard_bluegeek >>

Quote from Nechaef >>

Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.

 100%. There are a few aspects that could have made this class feel like a psionicist but IMO they totally missed the mark by making them spellcasters in the usual D&D sense. I love playing a Wizard but in many ways they are the "glass cannons" and spell slots end up being a limiting factor only mitigated by the introduction of the damage-scaling combat cantrips available in the modern editions. They have a distinct feel to play and that's not how I would want a psionicist to play. To be worthwhile it needs to be different, and it's not. Bolting on energy dice is just an over-complication, not a feature. The game already has plenty of spellcaster variants and I'm certain they will continue to proliferate.

For a "Psion" to feel like a psionics user, it would need to lean into the concept of "Mind Over (Fill in the blank). Mind over Body, Mind over Matter, Mind over Mind, etc. WotC is treating it like a mechanical effect ("Cast Detect Thoughts") instead of an inborn talent honed by skill and practice. Cast this spell, get X result. I'd like something more nuanced than that. Reading someone's mind should feel more like [ Psionic Ability + Psionic Skill ] vs [ Target's resistance + Difficulty ], roll vs DC [ X ] to succeed. They shouldn't be limited to doing it a few times a day like a Wizard would. Yes, there should be some limiting factor but spell slots don't feel the right way to do it.

I don't blame them for not wanting to invent a whole new "magic" system and reinventing mechanical effects (spells) that already exist in the game. Honestly, I get it. But if that's all the effort they want to put into it, they should've just modeled the mechanics off of either the Sorcerer or the Warlock class and kept it simple and not pretend to have done something different.

 

 

Yeah, the Psion as given does feel like something you could reproduce with a Sorcerer; the energy dice just adds complexity without achieving that much.

I can understand why they used spells. I mean, if you decided you wanted a system of 'per day' powers, by the time you had defined the parameters of those powers and how many times they could be used then...well, you would end up with the existing spellcasting system anyway. No point reinventing the wheel.

But I would still like to see a version of the Psion that's only a half-caster, where the role of Psionic Disciplines is massively expanded instead (a bit like Warlock invocations perhaps), with more of a 'tree' of level-gated Disciplines.

Some Psionic Disciplines could add lower level spells slots or give you a higher-level spell + spell slot, allowing access to spell levels a half-caster wouldn't normally reach. That way, if you wanted to lean heavily into spellcasting (and make people's heads explode with Psychic Scream) you could. But other Psionic Disciplines could, as others have said, just give straight up psychic powers (perhaps "boostable" using energy dice) or build on some of psychic-based spells. E.g:

"Psychic Defense: You have resistance to Psychic damage. Whenever you fail an Int, Wis or Cha saving throw you may expend and roll a Psionic Energy Die and add the result, potentially turning the failure into a success"

"Enhanced Mind Sliver: Whenever you cast Mind Sliver you may add your Int modifier to the damage roll. In addition, whenever you cause damage with Mind Sliver you may expend and roll a Psionic Damage Die. The target subtracts that number from their next Saving Throw instead of the normal d4".

 

 

if a psion is a half caster, then they will be inferior at psionics than a wizard, by a large margin.

what half caster means design wise, without some special unique design elements, is that you dont need to use spells to be good. with your base kit, and some useful spells, you can be as effective as anyone.

now, while nothing is innherrently wrong with a half caster.

a level 20 psion should be at least as good as a wizard at telekinesis, telepathy, manipluating time space, clairvoyance, altering fate.

now, doing that on a half caster chassis is going to be pretty rough, and probably involve recreating similar functionality to many spells through features somehow.

Quote from Gwar1 >>

Quote from RJP1973 >>

Quote from BlueBard_bluegeek >>

Quote from Nechaef >>

Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.

 100%. There are a few aspects that could have made this class feel like a psionicist but IMO they totally missed the mark by making them spellcasters in the usual D&D sense. I love playing a Wizard but in many ways they are the "glass cannons" and spell slots end up being a limiting factor only mitigated by the introduction of the damage-scaling combat cantrips available in the modern editions. They have a distinct feel to play and that's not how I would want a psionicist to play. To be worthwhile it needs to be different, and it's not. Bolting on energy dice is just an over-complication, not a feature. The game already has plenty of spellcaster variants and I'm certain they will continue to proliferate.

For a "Psion" to feel like a psionics user, it would need to lean into the concept of "Mind Over (Fill in the blank). Mind over Body, Mind over Matter, Mind over Mind, etc. WotC is treating it like a mechanical effect ("Cast Detect Thoughts") instead of an inborn talent honed by skill and practice. Cast this spell, get X result. I'd like something more nuanced than that. Reading someone's mind should feel more like [ Psionic Ability + Psionic Skill ] vs [ Target's resistance + Difficulty ], roll vs DC [ X ] to succeed. They shouldn't be limited to doing it a few times a day like a Wizard would. Yes, there should be some limiting factor but spell slots don't feel the right way to do it.

I don't blame them for not wanting to invent a whole new "magic" system and reinventing mechanical effects (spells) that already exist in the game. Honestly, I get it. But if that's all the effort they want to put into it, they should've just modeled the mechanics off of either the Sorcerer or the Warlock class and kept it simple and not pretend to have done something different.

 

 

Yeah, the Psion as given does feel like something you could reproduce with a Sorcerer; the energy dice just adds complexity without achieving that much.

I can understand why they used spells. I mean, if you decided you wanted a system of 'per day' powers, by the time you had defined the parameters of those powers and how many times they could be used then...well, you would end up with the existing spellcasting system anyway. No point reinventing the wheel.

But I would still like to see a version of the Psion that's only a half-caster, where the role of Psionic Disciplines is massively expanded instead (a bit like Warlock invocations perhaps), with more of a 'tree' of level-gated Disciplines.

Some Psionic Disciplines could add lower level spells slots or give you a higher-level spell + spell slot, allowing access to spell levels a half-caster wouldn't normally reach. That way, if you wanted to lean heavily into spellcasting (and make people's heads explode with Psychic Scream) you could. But other Psionic Disciplines could, as others have said, just give straight up psychic powers (perhaps "boostable" using energy dice) or build on some of psychic-based spells. E.g:

"Psychic Defense: You have resistance to Psychic damage. Whenever you fail an Int, Wis or Cha saving throw you may expend and roll a Psionic Energy Die and add the result, potentially turning the failure into a success"

"Enhanced Mind Sliver: Whenever you cast Mind Sliver you may add your Int modifier to the damage roll. In addition, whenever you cause damage with Mind Sliver you may expend and roll a Psionic Damage Die. The target subtracts that number from their next Saving Throw instead of the normal d4".

 

 

 

if a psion is a half caster, then they will be inferior at psionics than a wizard, by a large margin.

what half caster means design wise, without some special unique design elements, is that you dont need to use spells to be good. with your base kit, and some useful spells, you can be as effective as anyone.

now, while nothing is innherrently wrong with a half caster.

a level 20 psion should be at least as good as a wizard at telekinesis, telepathy, manipluating time space, clairvoyance, altering fate.

now, doing that on a half caster chassis is going to be pretty rough, and probably involve recreating similar functionality to many spells through features somehow.

Which is why I suggested expanded the role of Psionic Disciplines to give more direct powers.

Yes, maybe this will end up a little bit like spells by another name without a bit of thought. But as you say "without some special unique design elements...". I'm suggesting expanding the use of Psionic Disciplines to be those special unique design elements.

A lot of people here are saying that the current iteration of the Psion is too close to a Wizard with this "Psionic Energy Die" tacked on. I was just trying to suggest an alternative that isn't so "Wizardy". Is a Psion class even necessary when you could play a Wizard or Sorcerer and just pick up "psychic-related" spells?

Do you have any alternative suggestions?

Quote from Nechaef >>

Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.

 I don't necessarily like the spellcasting aspect of psionics, but unless you are going to make Psions extremely simple I don't know how you make them in 5e without spells. Again in 5e spells cover almost everything a psion needs to do. If you want them to write new book with a ton of features for Psion that all do what the spells already do, but aren't spells, I consider that a waste. I would never purchase that book, and I wouldn't allow it to be played at my tables. Powers and Spells are literally the same thing mechanically in the game. I can't see a reason to create a new Powers system, when it can be covered by spells. The only problem that I believe that needs to be addressed is that if you make Psions just fullcasters they are too similar to wizards and sorcerers in 5e. My mock ups were attempts to find something that is mechanically different while still using the assets that already exist in the game. I even attempted mock up that didnt use spells, but I found myself realizing every feature I tried to make was really just an altered spell or combined spells. 

Also I don't like the UA version. If it were released I wouldn't buy that book, but I would allow someone to play it at my table if they wanted.