Psion Discussion

I feel part of the problem is that they tried to make other classes into a Psion before they tried to make a Psion. I didn't want an aberrant/Chathulu linked spellcaster. I wanted an X-man. I wanted an aesthetic that willed their body to do amazing things and interact with the environment in amazing ways. I wanted Charlie from Firestarter.

I like the psi-touched melee classes just as they are, for sure. I think the Psion needs a reimagining. It feels like it's not enough and too much at the same time. Power selection should be limited and within the subclass' wheelhouse. Each power should be able to scale. I'm not sure the DnD spell system works for the type of powerset that would feel correct, to me. 

From a balance perspective the psion has a good enough spell list to be competitive with other full casters in terms of spellcasting power. The biggest negative is their defenses. It has low health and AC and only one subclass gets the shield spell. The squishiness is easily addressed with multiclassing so I feel like this class is going to be multiclassed a lot like warlocks.

On the flip side I think this version of the psion is a very potent offensive caster regardless of subclass. They have control effects and some blasting potential but the most important thing is that they can always contribute to damage using a swift precognition true strike. Being able to cast a control or blast spell and deal decent cantrip damage is a huge part of why sorcerers are powerful. The Psion can do that more frequently than sorcerers especially the psi warper.

Everyone's concerns about resources management aren't nearly as bad as you'd think. If you compare a psion's dice and sorcery points you can get an idea of how well the resource holds up. From level 1-6 you have as much or more uses as sorcery point and with a short rest a day it's up to level 18. Ya a sorcerer can turn spell slots into sorcery points but that limits how many spells you can cast per day. To top it off the most important meta magic options for dealing damage are empowered spell and quicken. Empowered costs 1 points and quicken cost 2. If you use swift precognition in place of quicken and the attack mode for empowered both of those only cost 1 psionic dice if you're using swift precognition for true strike. Some of the more potent options require more dice but I don't think that it'll be that big of an issue.

To add to my previous post swift precognition allows the Psion to true strike twice on a turn using your action and bonus action. Two true strikes deal comparable damage to paladins taking the attack action and using divine smite in all tiers of play. The Psion can do this about as frequently as a paladin can smite.

The Psion really can be quite potent. My favorite concept so far is EK 7 metamorph 6 multiclass. Armor and d10 hit dice help with the psion's weaknesses. You can also cast 2 true strikes and a booming blade on a turn using war magic, the metamorph's extra attack, and swift precognition. One true strike and booming blade are even made with the attack action so they can benefit from GWM. 

Quote from MeatLuggin >>

From a balance perspective the psion has a good enough spell list to be competitive with other full casters in terms of spellcasting power. The biggest negative is their defenses. It has low health and AC and only one subclass gets the shield spell. The squishiness is easily addressed with multiclassing so I feel like this class is going to be multiclassed a lot like warlocks.

On the flip side I think this version of the psion is a very potent offensive caster regardless of subclass. They have control effects and some blasting potential but the most important thing is that they can always contribute to damage using a swift precognition true strike. Being able to cast a control or blast spell and deal decent cantrip damage is a huge part of why sorcerers are powerful. The Psion can do that more frequently than sorcerers especially the psi warper.

Everyone's concerns about resources management aren't nearly as bad as you'd think. If you compare a psion's dice and sorcery points you can get an idea of how well the resource holds up. From level 1-6 you have as much or more uses as sorcery point and with a short rest a day it's up to level 18. Ya a sorcerer can turn spell slots into sorcery points but that limits how many spells you can cast per day. To top it off the most important meta magic options for dealing damage are empowered spell and quicken. Empowered costs 1 points and quicken cost 2. If you use swift precognition in place of quicken and the attack mode for empowered both of those only cost 1 psionic dice if you're using swift precognition for true strike. Some of the more potent options require more dice but I don't think that it'll be that big of an issue.

psions wnergy dice mechanic comes up more often than sorcery points, and is generally tied to its most psychic feeling abilities.

energy dice is involved in every facet of the class. attack/mode defense mode uses it, psionic disciplines use it, propel uses it, subclasses use it, spells are mosified by it.

while a sorcerers main fantasy is magic, and sorcerery points is how you do something special with magic sometimes, psions fanatsy is psychic stuff which is generally tied to the dice.

As for the paladin comparison, smiting is only one part of feeling like a paldin. Lay on hands doesnt use spell slots, aura doesnt use spell slots, many paladin subfeatures dont interqct with spell slots, blessed strikes isnt spell slot based. And you feel like a pld even when just attacking and defending 

Quote from Gwar1 >>

 

psions wnergy dice mechanic comes up more often than sorcery points, and is generally tied to its most psychic feeling abilities.

energy dice is involved in every facet of the class. attack/mode defense mode uses it, psionic disciplines use it, propel uses it, subclasses use it, spells are mosified by it.

while a sorcerers main fantasy is magic, and sorcerery points is how you do something special with magic sometimes, psions fanatsy is psychic stuff which is generally tied to the dice.

As for the paladin comparison, smiting is only one part of feeling like a paldin. Lay on hands doesnt use spell slots, aura doesnt use spell slots, many paladin subfeatures dont interqct with spell slots, blessed strikes isnt spell slot based. And you feel like a pld even when just attacking and defending 

 You're missing the point of my post so badly.

Sure you have other things to use psionic energy dice for. A sorcerer could use their points for other things too. My point is that they both are limited resources and the sorcerer would burn through their resource faster than a psion due to the Psion costs being lower in comparison and the Psion being limited to one discipline per turn. 

Your response to the paladin damage comparison is nonsensical and shows you didn't understand my point. Martial classes should be beating full spellcasters in single target damage. The Psion can compete with a sword and board paladin in single target damage with little investment on their part and even though a sorcerer could do the same the resource cost for a sorcerer is significantly higher. They can also do this from range. The psi warper in particular can cast 2 true strikes a turn basically whenever they want without running out of psionic energy dice.

Quote from MeatLuggin >>

Quote from Gwar1 >>

 

psions wnergy dice mechanic comes up more often than sorcery points, and is generally tied to its most psychic feeling abilities.

energy dice is involved in every facet of the class. attack/mode defense mode uses it, psionic disciplines use it, propel uses it, subclasses use it, spells are mosified by it.

while a sorcerers main fantasy is magic, and sorcerery points is how you do something special with magic sometimes, psions fanatsy is psychic stuff which is generally tied to the dice.

As for the paladin comparison, smiting is only one part of feeling like a paldin. Lay on hands doesnt use spell slots, aura doesnt use spell slots, many paladin subfeatures dont interqct with spell slots, blessed strikes isnt spell slot based. And you feel like a pld even when just attacking and defending 

 You're missing the point of my post so badly.

Sure you have other things to use psionic energy dice for. A sorcerer could use their points for other things too. My point is that they both are limited resources and the sorcerer would burn through their resource faster than a psion due to the Psion costs being lower in comparison and the Psion being limited to one discipline per turn. 

Your response to the paladin damage comparison is nonsensical and shows you didn't understand my point. Martial classes should be beating full spellcasters in single target damage. The Psion can compete with a sword and board paladin in single target damage with little investment on their part and even though a sorcerer could do the same the resource cost for a sorcerer is significantly higher. They can also do this from range. The psi warper in particular can cast 2 true strikes a turn basically whenever they want without running out of psionic energy dice.

 i get your point exactly, im pointing out that sorcery points are a smaller % of being a sorcerer than energy dice is for psions. IE, there is more pressure to use energy dice than there is for sorcery points, and you feel less like a psion when you arent using energy dice.

also your calculation that sorcery points and energy dice are similar is off. 

sorcery points is 20, and you can recover half of that while resting, you can also turn spell slots into sorcery points.

psion points caps at 12, you can recover half on Short rest 1 per dday, and you recover 1 per SR

thats basically 19 energy dice per day.

so its 30, versus 19, and you cant turn spell slots into energy dice. Note, lower level spell slots are less effective than meta magic at higher levels.

A sword and board paladin is not a dpr focused build, sword and board is basically trash damage for all classes, you are giving up tons of offense for baseline defense. Psion does not have anywhere close to the survivability of a sword and board paladin, i think the only pure class that can compete with a sword and board paladin's survivability is a sword and board cleric. And almost every  class can easily compete with a shield builds offense. thats not a good metric.

and your analysis is completely off here. Mostly because you are valuing energy dice as recasting cantrips, only, and not realizing that a psion needs to use energy dice as a basic part of its gameplay loop for other things. Which goes back to my earlier point. Psion will need to use dice to avoid damage (psionic backlash) activate various features, 

also, true strike is not the highest damage cantrip in the game, and psion is limited to diviniation and abjuration or psion cantrips with those features, its also more expensive for casting spells as BA.you have to pay 1 energy die for every spell level. So quickened spell is a more powerful feature overall.

the sorcerer can do toll of the dead (4d12) = 26 damage versus psiwarpers (4.5+3.5*3+5)=20 damage, and they can do it just as often, if not more by burning spell slots. And energy dice, as i said are way more critical to the class. Sorcery points generally alter spells, most psion features expend energy dice.

Things I would change about the Psion to make them feel more like their own class and not just a not as diverse wizard.

Hit die 1d8

Spell prepared minus 2 from every level. So 2 at 1st level and 20 at 20th

Psionic Spellcasting allows you cast with Psion spells without Somatic, Verbal or Material components , except if the material component consumed by the spell or has a cost listed in the spell.

Telekinetic Propel add this - After moving a target with this feature you may use an action to expend a spell slot to deal 1d8+1d8 per spell slot level+ Int psychic damage to the target. 
Telepathic Connection- Just make it last for 10 mins. The range is determined by the roll, but not the time. 

Subtle Telekinesis add this- As an action you can make a spell attack roll against a target within 5ft of the hand. If you hit the target takes 1d6+ Int force damage. This damage increases at higher levels in this class, 5th level to 2d6+int, 11 3d6+Int, and 17th 4d6+Int

Psionic Modes- drop the additional effects on both attack and defense modes and remove the limited use. So you either ignore resistance to psychic damage with your attacks or you are resistant to psychic damage for 1 minute at a time. You can use a bonus action anytime to activate it again. 

Psionic Surge since I’m saying make the modes unlimited the first part of this is pointless, so replace it with when you roll initiative you can expend a hit point dice and regain an expended Energy dice. The second part stays the same. 

Quote from Gwar1 >>

Quote from MeatLuggin >>

Quote from Gwar1 >>

 

psions wnergy dice mechanic comes up more often than sorcery points, and is generally tied to its most psychic feeling abilities.

energy dice is involved in every facet of the class. attack/mode defense mode uses it, psionic disciplines use it, propel uses it, subclasses use it, spells are mosified by it.

while a sorcerers main fantasy is magic, and sorcerery points is how you do something special with magic sometimes, psions fanatsy is psychic stuff which is generally tied to the dice.

As for the paladin comparison, smiting is only one part of feeling like a paldin. Lay on hands doesnt use spell slots, aura doesnt use spell slots, many paladin subfeatures dont interqct with spell slots, blessed strikes isnt spell slot based. And you feel like a pld even when just attacking and defending 

 You're missing the point of my post so badly.

Sure you have other things to use psionic energy dice for. A sorcerer could use their points for other things too. My point is that they both are limited resources and the sorcerer would burn through their resource faster than a psion due to the Psion costs being lower in comparison and the Psion being limited to one discipline per turn. 

Your response to the paladin damage comparison is nonsensical and shows you didn't understand my point. Martial classes should be beating full spellcasters in single target damage. The Psion can compete with a sword and board paladin in single target damage with little investment on their part and even though a sorcerer could do the same the resource cost for a sorcerer is significantly higher. They can also do this from range. The psi warper in particular can cast 2 true strikes a turn basically whenever they want without running out of psionic energy dice.

 i get your point exactly, im pointing out that sorcery points are a smaller % of being a sorcerer than energy dice is for psions. IE, there is more pressure to use energy dice than there is for sorcery points, and you feel less like a psion when you arent using energy dice.

also your calculation that sorcery points and energy dice are similar is off. 

sorcery points is 20, and you can recover half of that while resting, you can also turn spell slots into sorcery points.

psion points caps at 12, you can recover half on Short rest 1 per dday, and you recover 1 per SR

thats basically 19 energy dice per day.

so its 30, versus 19, and you cant turn spell slots into energy dice. Note, lower level spell slots are less effective than meta magic at higher levels.

A sword and board paladin is not a dpr focused build, sword and board is basically trash damage for all classes, you are giving up tons of offense for baseline defense. Psion does not have anywhere close to the survivability of a sword and board paladin, i think the only pure class that can compete with a sword and board paladin's survivability is a sword and board cleric. And almost every  class can easily compete with a shield builds offense. thats not a good metric.

and your analysis is completely off here. Mostly because you are valuing energy dice as recasting cantrips, only, and not realizing that a psion needs to use energy dice as a basic part of its gameplay loop for other things. Which goes back to my earlier point. Psion will need to use dice to avoid damage (psionic backlash) activate various features, 

also, true strike is not the highest damage cantrip in the game, and psion is limited to diviniation and abjuration or psion cantrips with those features, its also more expensive for casting spells as BA.you have to pay 1 energy die for every spell level. So quickened spell is a more powerful feature overall.

the sorcerer can do toll of the dead (4d12) = 26 damage versus psiwarpers (4.5+3.5*3+5)=20 damage, and they can do it just as often, if not more by burning spell slots. And energy dice, as i said are way more critical to the class. Sorcery points generally alter spells, most psion features expend energy dice.

 

 First this reply implies that you didn't even read my post and just want to argue which is fine. There's stuff you say that I already addressed or doesn't actually consider what I claimed like the fact that sorcerers can convert spell slots into sorcery points or insinuating that I think true strike is the greatest cantrip ever.

Quicken is more powerful only when you need to use your action for something else or can cast a spell without using a spell slot. Otherwise quicken can only be used to cast a leveled spell and a cantrip on a turn not 2 leveled spells. If you're going to argue that sorcery points are only used for meta magic you aren't looking at the sorcerer subclasses or the sorcery incarnate feature. Using sorcery points and meta magic is 100% the defining feature of being a sorcerer. The drain on sorcerer points will be substantial if you try to use meta magic all the time. The drain on the psion 's dice will be substantial if you try to use all its features all the time too. Now you can argue some of those features shouldn't use dice for thematic reasons, like the propel, telepathy, and modes, and I'd probably agree but it doesn't change the fact that the resource drain is similar to sorcery points.

To illustrate this using your level 20 comparison of using quicken to cast toll the dead. A level 20 sorc has 20 points base and gets 10 on one short rest per day for 30 total in a day. If they use all their points to quicken they can quicken 15 times and not use their points for anything else. The Psion has 12 dice at level 20 and gets can get up to 19 with one short rest according to you. That allows them to swift precognition 19 if they don't use their dice for other things or the same number as a sorc plus 4 other uses. Each quicken is using more of their total than the psion's swift precognition.

You clearly didn't look at the math or my claim because I said that a psion can keep up with a paladin using the same weapon as them and showed numbers with a d8. It's not a comparison of psion to sword and board paladin. It's a comparison of paladin and psion using the same weapon. Neither one is using fighting style feats, weapon masteries, or general feats. The weapon dice is literally a constant and if the Psion used a better weapon or magic weapon it would increase its damage to match. If you actually look at the math the majority of full casters cannot come close to competing with martials for single target damage with notable exceptions. The sorcerer can but it's resource intensive, a few subclasses of other casters can, and this psion can with less resource cost than the sorcerer.

True strike is only being used in my analysis because it's a divination cantrip that psions have access to. This allows it to be used with swift precognition and it also allows the benefits of magic weapons to keep another constant in the comparison with a paladin. This analysis is only to show that the base class can keep up with martials for single target damage with basically no optimization on either side.

Quote from MeatLuggin >>

From a balance perspective the psion has a good enough spell list to be competitive with other full casters in terms of spellcasting power. The biggest negative is their defenses. It has low health and AC and only one subclass gets the shield spell. The squishiness is easily addressed with multiclassing so I feel like this class is going to be multiclassed a lot like warlocks.

On the flip side I think this version of the psion is a very potent offensive caster regardless of subclass. They have control effects and some blasting potential but the most important thing is that they can always contribute to damage using a swift precognition true strike. Being able to cast a control or blast spell and deal decent cantrip damage is a huge part of why sorcerers are powerful. The Psion can do that more frequently than sorcerers especially the psi warper.

Everyone's concerns about resources management aren't nearly as bad as you'd think. If you compare a psion's dice and sorcery points you can get an idea of how well the resource holds up. From level 1-6 you have as much or more uses as sorcery point and with a short rest a day it's up to level 18. Ya a sorcerer can turn spell slots into sorcery points but that limits how many spells you can cast per day. To top it off the most important meta magic options for dealing damage are empowered spell and quicken. Empowered costs 1 points and quicken cost 2. If you use swift precognition in place of quicken and the attack mode for empowered both of those only cost 1 psionic dice if you're using swift precognition for true strike. Some of the more potent options require more dice but I don't think that it'll be that big of an issue.

I generally agree with this, the resource management part could be fine, its in the ball park of fine imo. It probably needs some minor adjustments but that is what playtests are for. Its not massively off though. Just likely needs some fine tuning. 

I'm just upset the summon wasn't astral constructs from 3e with a sub class built around it sort of the moon druid of psions with a gussied up astral construct vs gussied up wild shapes. 

Quote from crzyhawk >>

:popcorn:

I'm just here to see tears about it being a spellcaster, because mind magic is clearly different than arcane magic.

lol, don't get me wrong I'd be happy with a redone 2e psion, but 3e which was basically a caster but with spell points is my favorite version. 

Quote from MeatLuggin >>

Quote from Gwar1 >>

Quote from MeatLuggin >>

Quote from Gwar1 >>

 

psions wnergy dice mechanic comes up more often than sorcery points, and is generally tied to its most psychic feeling abilities.

energy dice is involved in every facet of the class. attack/mode defense mode uses it, psionic disciplines use it, propel uses it, subclasses use it, spells are mosified by it.

while a sorcerers main fantasy is magic, and sorcerery points is how you do something special with magic sometimes, psions fanatsy is psychic stuff which is generally tied to the dice.

As for the paladin comparison, smiting is only one part of feeling like a paldin. Lay on hands doesnt use spell slots, aura doesnt use spell slots, many paladin subfeatures dont interqct with spell slots, blessed strikes isnt spell slot based. And you feel like a pld even when just attacking and defending 

 You're missing the point of my post so badly.

Sure you have other things to use psionic energy dice for. A sorcerer could use their points for other things too. My point is that they both are limited resources and the sorcerer would burn through their resource faster than a psion due to the Psion costs being lower in comparison and the Psion being limited to one discipline per turn. 

Your response to the paladin damage comparison is nonsensical and shows you didn't understand my point. Martial classes should be beating full spellcasters in single target damage. The Psion can compete with a sword and board paladin in single target damage with little investment on their part and even though a sorcerer could do the same the resource cost for a sorcerer is significantly higher. They can also do this from range. The psi warper in particular can cast 2 true strikes a turn basically whenever they want without running out of psionic energy dice.

 i get your point exactly, im pointing out that sorcery points are a smaller % of being a sorcerer than energy dice is for psions. IE, there is more pressure to use energy dice than there is for sorcery points, and you feel less like a psion when you arent using energy dice.

also your calculation that sorcery points and energy dice are similar is off. 

sorcery points is 20, and you can recover half of that while resting, you can also turn spell slots into sorcery points.

psion points caps at 12, you can recover half on Short rest 1 per dday, and you recover 1 per SR

thats basically 19 energy dice per day.

so its 30, versus 19, and you cant turn spell slots into energy dice. Note, lower level spell slots are less effective than meta magic at higher levels.

A sword and board paladin is not a dpr focused build, sword and board is basically trash damage for all classes, you are giving up tons of offense for baseline defense. Psion does not have anywhere close to the survivability of a sword and board paladin, i think the only pure class that can compete with a sword and board paladin's survivability is a sword and board cleric. And almost every  class can easily compete with a shield builds offense. thats not a good metric.

and your analysis is completely off here. Mostly because you are valuing energy dice as recasting cantrips, only, and not realizing that a psion needs to use energy dice as a basic part of its gameplay loop for other things. Which goes back to my earlier point. Psion will need to use dice to avoid damage (psionic backlash) activate various features, 

also, true strike is not the highest damage cantrip in the game, and psion is limited to diviniation and abjuration or psion cantrips with those features, its also more expensive for casting spells as BA.you have to pay 1 energy die for every spell level. So quickened spell is a more powerful feature overall.

the sorcerer can do toll of the dead (4d12) = 26 damage versus psiwarpers (4.5+3.5*3+5)=20 damage, and they can do it just as often, if not more by burning spell slots. And energy dice, as i said are way more critical to the class. Sorcery points generally alter spells, most psion features expend energy dice.

 

 First this reply implies that you didn't even read my post and just want to argue which is fine. There's stuff you say that I already addressed or doesn't actually consider what I claimed like the fact that sorcerers can convert spell slots into sorcery points or insinuating that I think true strike is the greatest cantrip ever.

Quicken is more powerful only when you need to use your action for something else or can cast a spell without using a spell slot. Otherwise quicken can only be used to cast a leveled spell and a cantrip on a turn not 2 leveled spells. If you're going to argue that sorcery points are only used for meta magic you aren't looking at the sorcerer subclasses or the sorcery incarnate feature. Using sorcery points and meta magic is 100% the defining feature of being a sorcerer. The drain on sorcerer points will be substantial if you try to use meta magic all the time. The drain on the psion 's dice will be substantial if you try to use all its features all the time too. Now you can argue some of those features shouldn't use dice for thematic reasons, like the propel, telepathy, and modes, and I'd probably agree but it doesn't change the fact that the resource drain is similar to sorcery points.

To illustrate this using your level 20 comparison of using quicken to cast toll the dead. A level 20 sorc has 20 points base and gets 10 on one short rest per day for 30 total in a day. If they use all their points to quicken they can quicken 15 times and not use their points for anything else. The Psion has 12 dice at level 20 and gets can get up to 19 with one short rest according to you. That allows them to swift precognition 19 if they don't use their dice for other things or the same number as a sorc plus 4 other uses. Each quicken is using more of their total than the psion's swift precognition.

You clearly didn't look at the math or my claim because I said that a psion can keep up with a paladin using the same weapon as them and showed numbers with a d8. It's not a comparison of psion to sword and board paladin. It's a comparison of paladin and psion using the same weapon. Neither one is using fighting style feats, weapon masteries, or general feats. The weapon dice is literally a constant and if the Psion used a better weapon or magic weapon it would increase its damage to match. If you actually look at the math the majority of full casters cannot come close to competing with martials for single target damage with notable exceptions. The sorcerer can but it's resource intensive, a few subclasses of other casters can, and this psion can with less resource cost than the sorcerer.

True strike is only being used in my analysis because it's a divination cantrip that psions have access to. This allows it to be used with swift precognition and it also allows the benefits of magic weapons to keep another constant in the comparison with a paladin. This analysis is only to show that the base class can keep up with martials for single target damage with basically no optimization on either side.

I read what you wrote.

what i said is the concept that psions resources are fine because sorcerers are fine is false.

1.because sorcerers need sorcery points less for class defining abilities.

2. because sorcerers actually have more potential sorcery points per day versus times they can use sorcery points per day.

i said they mostly use sorcery points for meta magic. yes they have features which can use sorcery points as well, but its substantially less features, and most of those features provide at least one free use.

also, the math and structure of sorcery points is substantially different which translates into a big differences in actuality when you look at real play

you have more overall sorcery points along with more variation in use cost. the minimum cost is 1, the maximum cost is 7(i believe) this means the sorcerer can do between 30 and 4 big sorcerer things with change left over. the scions lowest discreet cost is 1, maximum is 4 with a pool of 19, so it can do only 19 psion things up to 4 for the most powerful, with change left over. 

And you act like being able to turn spell slots to sorcery points is something thats not that relevantbto the discussion when its huge. the fact is the sorcerer has as much sorcery points as they want, many people are asking for a conversion because that would signifigantly change psions access to psion game mechanics.

and i dont think that sorcerery points are as core to the classes fantasy as psion mechanics are to psions. but thats somewhat subjective. The core fantasy of sorcerer is being an innate caster. What makes them mechanically special in 5e is sorcery points, but when im casting spells im living the sorcerer fantasy. The whole concept of casting spells at all is questionable for many people interested in psions, That debate aside, it shows that the spell side of psion is less core to the psion fantasy. But feel free to ignore this paragraph, as i said, thats a subjective take that cant really be debated.

As for your paladin comparison, psions can not outdamage paladins, in martial combat i also dont know why you would be ignoring a bunch of paladins features and weapon options when considering their damage in martial combat. You want to compare a 1 handed simple weapon paladin using few of its features to a psion using multiple features?

paladin has fighting styles, channel divinity, smites, martial weapons, subclasses, feats that synergize as a part of its class design. Psion does not, and that limits their potential drastically.

'no optimization' is a lie, your psion is optomizing, it has a sub class, it selected a specific discipline, and it selected a strong synergy cantrip with that discipline.

a psi warper can cast two true strikes per round a certain number of times a day, depending on level. at low level, its 7 times a day.

hets look at the full math, on martial playstyle, lets assume psiwarper lvl 6 vs vengeance pld   4 combats, 4rounds per day

psi warper: d8(staff 2 handed) lets assume they used magic initiate  for shilleilagh precast (so they dont have to use dex daggers.

encounter 1 round 1-4 :(haste) true strike = 4.5+3.5+4 =12 staff = 8.5  total =32.5*.65=21.125

encounter 2 round 1-2 same as above =21.125

                      round 3-4 same as above, using spell slot misty steps 2, 21.125

encounter 3 (SR)round 1-4 same as above  21.125

encounter 4 round 1 no haste, 1 misty step left 15.6

                      round 2-4 no haste no misty step,  7.8

total avg per round 18.2

paladin is simpler, Dual wield build  without d10 swap, divine favor precast 

either 3 attacks or 4 attacks, each attack = 3.5+2.5+4+3.5 =13.5 (with hm and divine favor) 

first 3 encounters,  3*13.5*.8775(enmity accuracy) HM uses BA =35.5  4*13.5*.8775 =47.385   avg damage =41.4

when you have to use BA to do vow of enmity, 26.3 when its already on 35.1 (with accuracy)

4rth encounter, no divinity, so .65 accuracy. = 30.71

total average = (12*41.4+4*30.71)/16=38.728 

so 38.728 versus 18.2

so, no psion psiwarper is not coming close to paladin martial damage potential. unless you take away the pld sub, spells, feats and fighting styles while lettting the psion use theirs.

also not sure it was good to make this comparison with pld, as its basically an S teir martial.

My goodness dude, straw man much. I'm not going to quote that garbled nonsense that doesn't even do a good DPR calculation or attack scheme for the sake of space. The comparison is not the psi warper and a paladin. The comparison is a Psion using a cantrip they have access to and one psionic discipline to a paladin using the same weapon and the lowest level divine smites to establish a baseline. That's basically no optimization on either class which is my claim. My claim is that the base line damage for the base Psion is better than other full casters and can somewhat keep up with the base martial classes. Of course a martial is going to do more single target DPR than a caster because they build their character for it. My claim is that the Psion has a better baseline than most other casters and can keep up with a martial's baseline. You're optimized DPR with bad math doesn't even address my claim. Trying to compare an optimized build with an unoptimized build is pretty clearly not arguing in good faith.

My numbers were never for the psi warper but the Psion class in general. I mentioned that the psi warper can do this more often than the base class that's it. Also, your "optimized" psi warper is not very optimized. If I were to optimize a Psion for damage just as you optimized the paladin for damage, I'd be using the metamorph subclass because it can cast a cantrip as part of the attack action. My optimized Psion would have lucky as an origin feat and taken one level in fighter to get the archery fighting style and vex weapon mastery to use with a rapier or pistol, so they'd have advantage basically every attack. At level 7 it would cast haste on itself the first turn and still do 2 true strikes with the pistol. Every other turn it would do 3 true strikes with the pistol and a Viscera Launcher. The true strikes would be made with the default attack action, the haste attack action, and a bonus action which is allowed with haste (not taking the magic action) and the loading property (only firing one piece of ammunition with each action). This would use its actions and bonus action every turn. The true strikes would do .91(5.5 + 3.5 + 4) + .098(9) = 12.71. Its first round would be 25.42 DPR. It would have a DPR of 48.83 on later rounds while it still has luck points. That's even using a base hit chance of .6 instead of the .65 you used. That's quite a bit better than your optimized paladin. If you don't like the level dip or think that the loading property shouldn't allow this, you can use a shortbow and take the weapon mastery feat instead. It still comes out either better than or comparable to your build. It also doesn't rely on moving HM or precasting. Precasting is kinda cheating because it negates the cost to action economy.

If you want to look at the basically no optimization DPR throughout levels of play and how many rounds the Psion can do that DPR I can show the numbers.

Psion:

Level 2: true strike [.6(4.5 + 3) + .05(4.5)] x 2 =9.45 for 4 rounds, 5 with short rest

Level 5: true strike [.6(4.5 + 3.5 + 4) + .05(8)] x 2 =15.2 for 6 round, 10 with short rest

Level 11: true strike [.6(4.5 + 7 + 5) + .05(11.5)] x 2 = 20.95 for 8 rounds, 13 with short rest

Level 17: true strike [.6(4.5 + 10.5 + 5) + .05(15)] x 2 = 25.5 for 12 rounds, 19 with short rest

Paladin with divine smite on first hit.

Level 2: .6(4.5 + 3 + 9) + .05(4.5 + 9) = 10.58 for 3 rounds

Level 5: gets complicated when you factor in divine smiting on the first hit. 18.85

• Attack 1: .6(4.5 + 4 + 9) + .05(4.5 + 9) =11.18
• Attack 2 with first miss .4[.6(4.5 + 4 + 9) + .05(4.5 + 9)] =4.47
• Attack 2 with first hit .6[.6(4.5+4) + .05(4.5)] =3.2

Level 11: 25.89

• Attack 1: .6(9 + 5 + 9) + .05(4.5 + 9) =14.7
• Attack 2 with first miss .4[.6(9 + 5 + 9) + .05(9 + 9)] =5.88
• Attack 2 with first hit .6[.6(9+5) + .05(9)] =5.31

Level 17: 25.89

• Attack 1: .6(9 + 5 + 9) + .05(4.5 + 9) =14.7
• Attack 2 with first miss .4[.6(9 + 5 + 9) + .05(9 + 9)] =5.88
• Attack 2 with first hit .6[.6(9+5) + .05(9)] =5.31

As you can see the Psion is behind the paladin baseline but not by much. The biggest gap is in tier 3, but tiers 1, 2, and 4 have the Psion able to keep up pretty well with a base paladin using low level smites. That is better than any base class full caster other than the sorcerer and it can do it more often than a sorcerer unless the sorcerer starts converting spell slots for points. If I accept your claim that the paladin can do better damage than other martials that steel man's my argument. Being able to keep up with the highest damage dealing martial in 3 tiers of play with comparable resource costs is very good for a full caster.

metamorph could fit the monk as a subclass though

meatluggin, im not sure why you think its great to try to insult people randomly in a discussion, it serves no purpose. it doesnt improve your argument or change anything.

the metric you are looking at is a useless metric.

comparing spell slots, to energy dice is a weird comparison to begin with,

but why are you comparing one charachter using a 2 handed weapon (the only simple d8 weapons are versatile 2 handers) and using their BA to another charachter using a weapon 1 handed and not using a BA? Paladins have martial weapons. baseline they will always be dong a better form of attack given any situation. If you can use a staff with two hands, the pld could either use a greatsword or use two light weapons, baseline every paladin.

also, why are you presenting it as if your divine smites could be wasted if not used by the end of the round, also, why are your divine smites not scaling up?

paladin really looks like

lvl 2 = 2d6+mod. (both GS and TWF would give this, though twf is better if you want to use smites in less rounds) = if you want to consider crits, thats 10*.6 +.05*7 =6.35 is the baseline damage at lvl 2.

lvl2 psion with BA disciple = (4.5+3)=7.5*.6=4.5+.05*4.5=4.725*2=9.45

but once you look at the whole picture, aka 4 combats 4 rounds, or 16 rounds total, 

psion = 4 rounds at 9.45 and 12 rounds at 4.725.  the total average per day is 5.9 damage.  (4*9.45 + 12*4.725)/16=5.906 

paladin = 16 rounds at 6.35  and 3 times they can divine smite for 2d8 * 3 that day, assuming they arent fishing for crits we can call that 9.45 per smite ((16*6.35)+(3*9.45))/16=8.122 

so at lvl 2 its basically inferior,  5.9 per round versus 8.122 per round

at 5 pld has 2d6+4 *2 including crits and .6 accuracy thats 13.9 for 16 rounds, with smites you have 2 at 3d8(14.175)and 5 at 2d8(9.45)  for 18.625 per round per day.

at 5 psion has (d8+d6+4)*2. which including crits and ac is 15.2 with 10 rounds, 7.6 for 6 rounds. average = 12.35 per round per day

at 11 every pld has radiant strikes, baseline. 

11 pld baseline is (2d6+5+d8) *2 including crits anf accuracy, 20.375     3*4d8(18.9)  3*3d8(14.175)  5*2d8(9.45)  total avg across 16 rounds 29.5

11 psion = (just gonna use you number) 20.95 for 13 rounds 3 rounds at 10.475. average =18.9

level 17, pld doesnt change baseline 20.375. *16   smites, 5d10 +3 (5d8) + 3 (4d8) + 3 (3d8) + 5 (2d8)  /16. total avg damage is more complicated because misses matter now, but ignoring that its like 35.7 per round

level 17 psion (d8+3d6+5)*2*.6= 4.5+10.5+5  + .05(15) =24.75 and it can do this every round, so no need to calculate 16 rounds

so pld, even ignoring fighting styles, feats, subclasses and other choices of magic that are probably more efficient (like using divine favor over 2d8 smites) still beats a 2 handed psion easily at every cantrip upgrade. and its by a signifigant amount.

Base class defense ideas:

At Level 1: Psionic Armor: Your telekinetic defenses shield you from physical attacks. Your Armor Class is 10 plus your Intelligence Modifier. This feature negates any Dexterity bonus to Armor Class and cannot be combined with any Unarmored Defense features from other classes or subclasses. 

At Level 3: Telekinetic Deflection: As a reaction to a melee or ranged attack that hits you, you can roll 1 Psionic Energy Die. Subtract the result from the enemy's attack roll. If the attack misses, the die is expended. If the attack still hits, the Energy Die is not expended. 

I'd also increase the number of Psionic Energy Dice, and have them scale at the standard cantrip scaling levels. 5 PED at Level 1. 10 PED at Level 5. 15 PED at Level 11. And 20 PED at Level 17. I think there's a lot of features to burn this resource on, between the base class and subclasses, as well as my proposed Level 3 feature.

And how's this for a capstone: Psionic Epiphany. As a Bonus Action, you can roll a Psionic Energy Die (without expending any of your dice). For one minute, you can add the number rolled to your Intelligence Score, to a maximum of 30. You can use this feature once per Short Rest. 

Gwar1 you finally made a decent argument. I never insulted you only the bad faith arguments and fallacious arguments. If you feel attacked by someone pointing out fallacies and bad faith arguments that's on you. Making straw man arguments and deliberately misrepresenting the arguments of those who disagree with you is not conducive to a good faith discussion.

I don't know many tables that have 4 combats a day with 16 rounds of combat. Most of the polls that creators like D4 have done to determine the average combats per day show 2 combats per day that are 4 rounds long. That was my assumption when comparing damage. I also already told you my other assumptions that you seemed to ignore and completely misrepresent. I will admit a paladin would likely cast higher level smites but I was looking to see how 2 unoptimized character compared to each other. You also seem fixated on the Psion doing melee damage, and trying to say they won't compete with a paladin because they can't stand up in melee. They shouldn't be doing melee damage. They can use a light crossbow and most definitely should be with true strike.

Your math is still bad and inflating the paladin's damage. Your math adds the divine smite damage even if the paladin misses. My math is showing the expected DPR in a round including the chance of missing all of your attacks. You took me factoring that in as somehow saying the paladin lost a divine smite.

I'm saying most people don't play fully optimized characters for damage. Even power gamers often don't play optimal damage characters. The idea behind the comparison is to show that a Psion is just as good as an unoptimized martial. That's why I used the d8 and low level smites for comparison. Very few people play a damage optimized character because there is a lot more to d&d than just damage.

If the Psion can keep up with those characters with a cantrip and one discipline selection while fulfilling the role of controller caster, that's good. The Psion, as written in the UA, controls and contributes to damage better than any other base class full caster. And does so for longer than any other full caster.

Quote from MeatLuggin >>

Gwar1 you finally made a decent argument. I never insulted you only the bad faith arguments and fallacious arguments. If you feel attacked by someone pointing out fallacies and bad faith arguments that's on you. Making straw man arguments and deliberately misrepresenting the arguments of those who disagree with you is not conducive to a good faith discussion.

I don't know many tables that have 4 combats a day with 16 rounds of combat. Most of the polls that creators like D4 have done to determine the average combats per day show 2 combats per day that are 4 rounds long. That was my assumption when comparing damage. I also already told you my other assumptions that you seemed to ignore and completely misrepresent. I will admit a paladin would likely cast higher level smites but I was looking to see how 2 unoptimized character compared to each other. You also seem fixated on the Psion doing melee damage, and trying to say they won't compete with a paladin because they can't stand up in melee. They shouldn't be doing melee damage. They can use a light crossbow and most definitely should be with true strike.

Your math is still bad and inflating the paladin's damage. Your math adds the divine smite damage even if the paladin misses. My math is showing the expected DPR in a round including the chance of missing all of your attacks. You took me factoring that in as somehow saying the paladin lost a divine smite.

I'm saying most people don't play fully optimized characters for damage. Even power gamers often don't play optimal damage characters. The idea behind the comparison is to show that a Psion is just as good as an unoptimized martial. That's why I used the d8 and low level smites for comparison. Very few people play a damage optimized character because there is a lot more to d&d than just damage.

If the Psion can keep up with those characters with a cantrip and one discipline selection while fulfilling the role of controller caster, that's good. The Psion, as written in the UA, controls and contributes to damage better than any other base class full caster. And does so for longer than any other full caster.

it wasnt you talking about your percieved fallacies that i found to be insults,  but if you say that wasnt your intent, i'll take your word for it and we can move on. if you want to avoid people thinking you are insulting in the future, you can simply not say anything about a person's percieved motives, or try to disparage their abilities and focus on just the arguments/logic/facts or ideas presented. You don't need to challenge this part, i dont want to waste time debating fallacies or whatnot, its just advice, take it or leave it.  If you really want to know what i percieved that way for your own knowledge you can send me a message, 

back to the actual discussion;

i was comparing melee to melee but it doesnt really matter, a light xbow is also a 2 handed weapon that does d8. Light xbow also has the loading property, and thus cant be used 2 times per round without a feature, or some sort of weapon swap.. the only one handed xbow is a martial weapon. But even ignoring loading, its still a two handed weapon, so it makes sense the pld would be using a two handed weapon

there is no reason the pld wouldnt use a better weapon than a psion, because simple weapons are just inferior martial weapons. Its one of built in advanatges martials have.

and the unoptimized psion is not as good as an unoptimized martial, Even taking the BA psionic discipline and using it for true strike is a form of optimization. Yeah, i paladin might decide to use a longsword for flavor, but the psion might also use a dagger for flavor. Many psions might decide they would rather use telekinetic fling or  mind sliver, the psion could easily choose two different disciplines other than the one you chose. Even optomizers question whether that discipline is worth the energy die cost. You cant really do a comparison without some level of optimization or even just making choices.

2 combats of 4 rounds per adventuring day is not the norm. And  dif people are having 8 round days the paladin and even the psion are likely going to make different choices, more focused on nova, but even with nova, that favors the pld who has more damage early on. The double true strike struggles to get much more damage than the paladins baseline attack potential, it can't also defeat their best divine smite, (or even divine favor) on top of that.

but even with that analysis; one resource, no specfic selections where they have a choice (even though the psion taking that discipline is making a choice) using two hands to attack each round, the paladin is noticeably ahead.

a psion taking that specific discipline and true strike is probably in the realms of most casters  prowess,  cleric can do spiritual weapon + true strike, druid has a bunch of spells that are effective when using attacks,  wizards and sorcerers also have attack based summons as BA.  I personally find getting two cantrip attacks cool, especially as a low spell cost option, but ultimately you have a certain amount of actions and bonus actions per day, and all the casters dont have a problem competing here. maybe bard level 1-9

everyone else is in the same teir or surpassing it.

Quote from Gwar1 >

 

i was comparing melee to melee but it doesnt really matter, a light xbow is also a 2 handed weapon that does d8. Light xbow also has the loading property, and thus cant be used 2 times per round without a feature, or some sort of weapon swap.. the only one handed xbow is a martial weapon. But even ignoring loading, its still a two handed weapon, so it makes sense the pld would be using a two handed weapon

 

 This is false. The loading property only limits you to firing one piece of ammunition per action, bonus action, or reaction. It does not limit you to one attack per round with a loading weapon. Your math is still wrong and doesn't account for a paladin missing all of its attacks on a turn when you're factoring in your divine smite damage. Half of your arguments so far is that the paladin is better because it can survive melee and deals more damage. This was never a "Psion is better than Paladin argument" though that is what you decided to argue against. I said that the paladin did more damage, but the Psion was close and actually said the Psion was squishy in post 26. You still engage in fallacious arguments and completely ignore or misrepresent my claims while trying to debunk them. Once again you are comparing optimized and heavy resource intensive combat plans to non-optimized low resource intensive combat plans. Also fabricating positions for someone who disagrees with you, like you did in post 30, is not a good faith argument.

It really isn't worth arguing with you since you seem to take pushback personally and are missing the point of my analysis. The Psion in UA is the best full caster base class at control while also contributing to damage. The damage they can contribute while continuing to control the battlefield is better than any other full caster other than a sorcerer. If they try to go for a single target damage focused build it is significantly easier because the base class and subclasses have better tools for that than other classes. The only other base class that can compete in this role is the sorcerer, but they don't have the sorcery points to do it as long as the Psion in every tier of play except maybe the end of tier 3 and tier 4 due to the fact that they have enough spell slots to convert into sorcery points. I talk about this in post 26, and post 32.

Quote from MeatLuggin >>

Quote from Gwar1 >

 

i was comparing melee to melee but it doesnt really matter, a light xbow is also a 2 handed weapon that does d8. Light xbow also has the loading property, and thus cant be used 2 times per round without a feature, or some sort of weapon swap.. the only one handed xbow is a martial weapon. But even ignoring loading, its still a two handed weapon, so it makes sense the pld would be using a two handed weapon

 

 This is false. The loading property only limits you to firing one piece of ammunition per action, bonus action, or reaction. It does not limit you to one attack per round with a loading weapon. Your math is still wrong and doesn't account for a paladin missing all of its attacks on a turn when you're factoring in your divine smite damage. Half of your arguments so far is that the paladin is better because it can survive melee and deals more damage. This was never a "Psion is better than Paladin argument" though that is what you decided to argue against. I said that the paladin did more damage, but the Psion was close and actually said the Psion was squishy in post 26. You still engage in fallacious arguments and completely ignore or misrepresent my claims while trying to debunk them. Once again you are comparing optimized and heavy resource intensive combat plans to non-optimized low resource intensive combat plans. Also fabricating positions for someone who disagrees with you, like you did in post 30, is not a good faith argument.

It really isn't worth arguing with you since you seem to take pushback personally and are missing the point of my analysis. The Psion in UA is the best full caster base class at control while also contributing to damage. The damage they can contribute while continuing to control the battlefield is better than any other full caster other than a sorcerer. If they try to go for a single target damage focused build it is significantly easier because the base class and subclasses have better tools for that than other classes. The only other base class that can compete in this role is the sorcerer, but they don't have the sorcery points to do it as long as the Psion in every tier of play except maybe the end of tier 3 and tier 4 due to the fact that they have enough spell slots to convert into sorcery points. I talk about this in post 26, and post 32.

loading, as i said in that sentence you quoted, is irrelvant the point is if the psion is using two hands, the paladin can use two hands. ie, they can do 2d6 either via dual wielding or greatsword. Light xbow is a two handed weapon.

my math doesnt need to account for a paladin missing all their attacks in a round, because am looking at the damage throughout the day,. if a paladin can land 10 attacks in the day, they will do 10 smites worth of damage.  dual wielding paladin attempts at least 48 attacks in 4 combat day, a two weapon fighting paladin attemps at least 32. the chance of them missing enough attacks to be unable to use their smites is not really very likely until they are starting to be able to smite every single round, which is at like 20. but even so its not actually much of a factor, because its the weakest smites they would be missing out on, and that could easily be solved by casting divine favor instead of smiting with 2d8s.

and even if you wanted to account for it, with a hit rate of .6, the chance of you missing both attacks is 14% (take the chance of missing twice .4*.4 then 1- that chance is your chance of hitting at least once)

which still doesnt come close to making up the difference, and it would be less accurate than what i propose, as those smites would be used in later rounds.

using every single one of your energy dice is not a low resource plan, thats a heavy resource plan. it also consumes your action, and your bonus action. this means while using that strategy, you cant do anything else. energy dice for the psion, as i said earlier has a lot of other uses, like defense, landing debuffs, defending teamates. so using all of them for the purpose of damage would be considered a high resource game plan.

the reason i was talking about squishyness, was because i was trying to think what conceivable reason a paladin wouldnt have a complimentary fighting style, which is only if they choose a defensive one. The point was paladins who are doing less damage than psions are choosing defensive builds, if the psion chooses a defensive build, it is likely to spend its energy dice on different things, like psionic backlash, defense mode saves, landing debuffs.

but i forgoed that whole argument, because even according to the situation you want to evaluate, the psion isnt competing.

this is not personal, im not trying to disprove you for kicks, we are trying to understand and give feedback on the psion class, and are looking at its strengths and weaknesses, and how they compare with other classes, my point is not that the psion is a weak class, my point is the psion is not in the paladin class of martial capability, or even particularly close to it. People giving feedback and reading this thread, should not think, that psion, with swift precognition is roughly on par with a paladin's martial prowess and give feedback with that in mind, because it is not accurate.

psion is probably better than many martials, because its a full caster and can do things they just cant do, however, with the current iteration, its not offensively competitive with a pld at single target damage, and its not competitive with offensive casters at aoe damage/single target damage.

i like swift precognition, (and the psiwarper BA cantrip) because i prefer being martial focused, and having BA options, but as far as my testing shows, its not really offensively a huge deal compared to dedicated martials, because they get a lot of built in support for it, which is ok, its a full caster, its just doing martial stuff because thats the fantasy the player is going for, not for peak efficiency.

Im testing a party of psions currently, and so far, the more cast focused subclasses and themes are making the biggest contributions, and i doubt that will change.

I agree the psion is great at control, but its not great at damage, using energy dice for damage makes you less good at control, in which case the bard surpasses you at control. (the big difference is using energy dice to make spells more effective, the spell list is extremely similar, except at 10 they get cleric and wizards list as well)

druid has spells like conjure animals, woodland beings, and conjure minor elemental, 

wizard has basically every arcane spell, and lots of slots, and the ability to change spells each day to suit the situation, its going to beat the psion at damage.

it probably has more control than a cleric. it probably has more damage than bard.

i think the big thing its got going for it is a fun theme, and a lot of options and a bit of customizability. I think it could use more unique spells, that fit the themes (metamorph is the most lacking in this regard, though psikinetist could use some high end stuff) and bit more energy dice management, or less abilities that consume energy dice.

I think Psion is actually fairly balanced. Juts maybe throw in a bit more hit points for Metamorph, because that seems like it's supposed to be a skirmisher.

I think 2024 Archfey Warlock multiclasses are going to be common with Psi Warper subclass-- it seems like it'd be fun, although a bit MAD.

I dunno. A bit underwhelming, but the Psionic dice really buff the class. Not sure what to think,but it's definitely one of the better UA psionic subclasses proposed.