Needs a ribbon feature at level 3 for flavor purposes. Nothing too powerful, but something that's always an option and speaks to the subclass identity. Maybe spend 1 FP to cast Detect Magic? Something like that.
Needs a ribbon feature at level 3 for flavor purposes. Nothing too powerful, but something that's always an option and speaks to the subclass identity. Maybe spend 1 FP to cast Detect Magic? Something like that.
Eh; all spells can be ritual cast by anyone with them prepared now, so it'd be a rare circumstance where spending a focus is better than just taking the 10 minutes to cast it, and it's any easy pick at early levels for the general utility and ritual casting.
Maybe give them Arcana prof and let them use WIS mod for it. Lets them underscore that they've really learned magic and sidesteps the obvious mechanical hang up of having a decent bonus for their level when they're already MAD.
There is potential for abuse between Mystic Focus and Font of Magic that I haven't analyzed yet. Both classes would allow you to convert independent resources (Focus Points and Sorcery Points) into spell slots and these resources return during short rests (Monk 2/Sorcerer 5) or other periods (Monk 15). I don't know how problematic this actually would be, but you could dip a few levels into one or the other to convert Focus Points into Sorcery Points or vice versa (Bonus Action + no action) or to just get lots of spell slots per combat and then recover a lot of your resources during a short rest.
I definitely understand what you mean, but in practice, I don’t think it would be an issue. Firstly, a monk/sorcerer would be incredibly MAD, it would be using 2 different casting stats, and still want dex and con if it’s going to make use of monk features. So one class or the other, or probably both, would have pretty crappy spell attack/save DCs.
This isn't necessarily true. They share the same list but have different casting stats. However, not every spell uses a spell attack or allows a save. For example, you could reserve spells like Absorb Elements and Mage Armor for that class you are not focusing on. A Sorcerer shouldn't dump Wisdom so Unarmed Defense is just free AC as long as Wisdom is at least a 12 but probably won't overtake Mage Armor. A Monk focused character will be restricted in the effectiveness of some of their metamagics, but the spells themselves don't necessarily cause an issue. Therefore, a Mystic Warrior dipping into Sorcerer or a Sorcerer dipping into Mystic Warrior is necessarily any more MAD than a single class character.
It's similar to spell choice with Eldritch Knights and Eldritch Knight/Wizard multiclass except that a Mystic Monk has more use for Wisdom than an Eldritch Knight has for Intelligence, but the Eldritch Knight/Wizard has more synergy than a Mystic Monk/Sorcerer.
And if the idea would be to, for example, dip a level or two in monk, to basically use focus point as a battery to turn into a couple spell slots, well, ok, now you’ve delayed your sorcerer progression and probably gotten fewer slots from the focus-to-slot conversion than you would have just taking the sorcerer levels.
Yes, that's true. There is also using Sorcerer for Focus Points and extra spell slots. However, that has a similar issue. And I mentioned a 2-level dip into Monk, but it would actually be a 3-level dip since it doesn't work without the subclass.
I also mentioned a 5-level dip into Sorcerer because that is when Sorcery points refresh during a short rest, but you can always convert focus points into sorcery points with a 2-level dip and let the short rest refill your focus points.
Is that broken? I don't know.
The monk's focus is more valuable than low level spell slots, and you cant create higher level spell slots with monks focus, than the monk's level allows. On the other side, maybe you could turn sorcery points into spells, and spells into ki, but thats probably a trash rate.
for comparison, a monk's focus point is basically more powerful than a level 2 spell at level 10, and more powerful than a level 1 spell before that. So its a fairly bad trade, purely in power budget. Its useful for utility/versatility, and some special effects monks dont have easy access to, but most other classes already have such things built in in 2024.
Some people imagine a world where monk is trading all their ki for spells, as if thats benefiting them. taking away half of your damage, patient defense/step of the wind/stunning strike in order to cast 3 level 1 spells, isnt a big win at level 6. There is not 3 level one spells that will give you that much value per short rest. And going the other direction, actually might be useful at times early on, but thats not out of budget for a subclass that would basically be offering you like 2 extra focus points per day.
The big great usecase, is in a no combat day, monk can cast a lot of low level spells, so can a bunch of other classes.
Edit:
adding response to this:
"
Ignoring what you give up at level 20. Is having two pools of points that you can use to create spell slots problematic? Is it problematic to have a secondary pool that you can use to convert to slots and then into sorcery points for metamagics?
"
to have enough points to make the coversion requires enough investment into.monk, as to likely not be worth it. 6 levels in monk is a huge loss in casting power, and would net you 3 sorcery points per SR, max. but you gave up 6 points, by giving up 6 levels of sorcerer, and you reduced your sorcerous restoration by 3 more sorcery points.
a monk can likely get 3 pools of focus per day, so you basically gain nothing, in terms of sorcery points.
If you want sorcerer for some other reason, it may be fine, but you arent really gaining much in casts per day. You are actually losing out on spell progression. The only reason to do it, is if you actually want to do martial things, and focus is more valuble at that
3rd LEVEL: Mystic Focus, but it can only be used once per long rest.
6th LEVEL: Mystic Fighting Style, same with this sentence added, “Additionally there is no long a restriction on the number of times you may use your Mystic Focus.”
11th LEVEL: Centered Focus, same with this sentence added, “If you still fail a save to maintain concentration you may use your reaction to spend up to 5 focus points and add the amount you spent to your roll turning a failure into a success.”
17th LEVEL: Mystic Strike. Once on your turn when you hit with an unarmed strike or monk weapon you can expend a spell slot and deal an additional 1d8+1d8 per spell slot level force damage.
It’s a 4th level spell, I highly doubt they have any concerns about a 1/3 caster breaking the game with it. By the time they get it a Wizard can already do a pretty good impression of what you’re describing with Scorching Ray, and even upcast one or both.
Didn't say it would break the game, I just don't think they even wanted it to be an option for people to build around, because people definitely would... Plenty of bad builds out there trying to force hunter's mark as it is,
They don’t want one subclass to be able to do something a whole class will already be able to do better and sooner? That’s a reach.
monk is better at being a martial doing it. A monk has a tone of durability, and needs less resources to do it. Also scorching ray/EB doesnt realy interact with magic items.
they also interact better with attacks with sources of advantage, etc (prone grapplle stun etc).
a monk can make 6 attacks every turn (with nick mastery) and might likely have some magical wraps, and/or a magic weapons
6.5+5+9+2 with advantage wouldnt be uncommon. (stun+grapple chance is a common source) with advantage and crits, one attack is 22.58 damage, thats 135 dpr for the cost of one level 4 spell, and 1-2 ki. the you coudld add about 10 damage to that from the cantrip attack.
specifically, by level 20, that would likely go up to 164(174 cantrip) damage via increasee dex/wis and crit boosting epic boon.
they would have deflect attacks of about 30 damage, 24 AC, resistance to all damage( except force) profociency in all saves, with ability to reroll.
all this with a straight classed monk. You could target the wizard and likely break concentration or just kill them outright, And they would be limited via upcasted scorching rays.
So it would probabky be the best straight class version of this
You do realize they only get a single 4th level spell slot at level 19, right? And they need to wait a turn before they can more than their FoB in on it. Would this look really cool if they pulled it off? Sure. Is this anything close to the biggest hit someone can make by late 4th tier? Nope.
I'll grant they might have picked Sorcerer in part just for a smaller list of spells vs Wizard, given Monks get a lot more core class toys, but I really, really don't think this spell carried an extra weight in the decision.
Didn't say it would break the game, I just don't think they even wanted it to be an option for people to build around, because people definitely would... Plenty of bad builds out there trying to force hunter's mark as it is,
A Mark of Storm (Eberron Forge of the Artificer) has Conjure Minor Elementals on all of their spellcasting class lists. Add Potent Dragonmark and any character, spellcaster or not, can cast it by 7th level once per Short Rest. Any character with a two feat investment (one of which can take the place of an origin feat) can do what you propose better and sooner than a Mystic Monk with the spell on their spell list.
You do realize they only get a single 4th level spell slot at level 19, right? And they need to wait a turn before they can more than their FoB in on it. Would this look really cool if they pulled it off? Sure. Is this anything close to the biggest hit someone can make by late 4th tier? Nope.
Technically, it's 4 slots at 19 because they have 20 focus points and can recover 3 4th level slots. It's a Bonus Action for each, but they can do it during combat and at the end of combat if they need to. Practically, it's potentially much more than that because Monks recover all of their Focus Points with a Short Rest. They will be limited to upcasting lower-level spell or 2 (level 19) or 3 (level 20) 4th level spells known prepared.
It's just the same cost as the Sorcery Point cost but they are easier to replenish. Focus Points fully replenish with a Short Rest or Long Rest and if you roll initiative with less than 4 Focus Points, you are set to 4 (enough for a 2nd level slot). Sorcery Points only allow you to restore half your class level during a Short Rest and only once per Long Rest. They probably should have priced the Focus Point cost higher (perhaps starting at 2 but increasing faster than the Sorcery Point cost, maybe 2-3-5-7 or 2-4-7-11).
Okay, and do any of those really constitute make or break features for a class' viability?
No single spell makes or breaks the viability of any class. That doesn't change the fact that the sorcerer spell list is more limited than the wizard one.
Isn't every spell list more limited than the wizard one? Isn't that what makes wizards so powerful and versatile as they gain levels?
3rd LEVEL: Mystic Focus, but it can only be used once per long rest.
6th LEVEL: Mystic Fighting Style, same with this sentence added, “Additionally there is no long a restriction on the number of times you may use your Mystic Focus.”
11th LEVEL: Centered Focus, same with this sentence added, “If you still fail a save to maintain concentration you may use your reaction to spend up to 5 focus points and add the amount you spent to your roll turning a failure into a success.”
17th LEVEL: Mystic Strike. Once on your turn when you hit with an unarmed strike or monk weapon you can expend a spell slot and deal an additional 1d8+1d8 per spell slot level force damage.
I don't hate these, to be sure. But I might also add the ability to have their unarmed strikes count as magical attacks, since they took that away in 2024 in lieu of letting them deal Force damage. This subclass seems like the perfect place to add that back in.
3rd LEVEL: Mystic Focus, but it can only be used once per long rest.
6th LEVEL: Mystic Fighting Style, same with this sentence added, “Additionally there is no long a restriction on the number of times you may use your Mystic Focus.”
11th LEVEL: Centered Focus, same with this sentence added, “If you still fail a save to maintain concentration you may use your reaction to spend up to 5 focus points and add the amount you spent to your roll turning a failure into a success.”
17th LEVEL: Mystic Strike. Once on your turn when you hit with an unarmed strike or monk weapon you can expend a spell slot and deal an additional 1d8+1d8 per spell slot level force damage.
I don't hate these, to be sure. But I might also add the ability to have their unarmed strikes count as magical attacks, since they took that away in 2024 in lieu of letting them deal Force damage. This subclass seems like the perfect place to add that back in.
Magical attacks aren’t a thing anymore. That is, 24 monsters no longer have resistance to nonmagical b/p/s damage, they just resist all of it, magic or not. Force is far better.
I don't hate these, to be sure. But I might also add the ability to have their unarmed strikes count as magical attacks, since they took that away in 2024 in lieu of letting them deal Force damage. This subclass seems like the perfect place to add that back in.
Magical attacks aren’t a thing anymore. That is, 24 monsters no longer have resistance to nonmagical b/p/s damage, they just resist all of it, magic or not. Force is far better.
Not to mention that if you have something that is resistant to your Bludgeoning. Piercing, and Slashing damage, changing to Force damage is as effective at bypassing resistance in almost all cases. Even if you are facing a 2014 monster that the DM didn't update, switching to Force damage accomplishes the same goal that magical bludgeoning did in 2014.
If you are facing an Orthon from Monsters of the Multiverse and don't have silvered or magic weapons, dealing Force damage deals normal damage. Very few things are resistant to Force damage and those that are won't be resistant to Bludgeoning damage, magic or not.
Didn't say it would break the game, I just don't think they even wanted it to be an option for people to build around, because people definitely would... Plenty of bad builds out there trying to force hunter's mark as it is,
A Mark of Storm (Eberron Forge of the Artificer) has Conjure Minor Elementals on all of their spellcasting class lists. Add Potent Dragonmark and any character, spellcaster or not, can cast it by 7th level once per Short Rest. Any character with a two feat investment (one of which can take the place of an origin feat) can do what you propose better and sooner than a Mystic Monk with the spell on their spell list.
You do realize they only get a single 4th level spell slot at level 19, right? And they need to wait a turn before they can more than their FoB in on it. Would this look really cool if they pulled it off? Sure. Is this anything close to the biggest hit someone can make by late 4th tier? Nope.
Technically, it's 4 slots at 19 because they have 20 focus points and can recover 3 4th level slots. It's a Bonus Action for each, but they can do it during combat and at the end of combat if they need to. Practically, it's potentially much more than that because Monks recover all of their Focus Points with a Short Rest. They will be limited to upcasting lower-level spell or 2 (level 19) or 3 (level 20) 4th level spells known prepared.
It's just the same cost as the Sorcery Point cost but they are easier to replenish. Focus Points fully replenish with a Short Rest or Long Rest and if you roll initiative with less than 4 Focus Points, you are set to 4 (enough for a 2nd level slot). Sorcery Points only allow you to restore half your class level during a Short Rest and only once per Long Rest. They probably should have priced the Focus Point cost higher (perhaps starting at 2 but increasing faster than the Sorcery Point cost, maybe 2-3-5-7 or 2-4-7-11).
yes, the monk can get level 4 slots for focus
however monks focus is incredibly effective. Many people talking about the exchange rate are ignoring that a monk with zero focus is mostly worthless, and the value of one focus point for a monk at level 10+ is large. 1 focus point is 2d12+10, a stunning strike, dodge+disengage+temp HP, disengage+dash+carry friend. Even at higher levels, when monk has more focus, they cant afford to spend all their focus.
if the rate was worse, it would just be completely pointless to convert, and a trap, focus points are already being traded at a power discount as is. Going from sometimes worth it, to almost never worth it, isnt really a good choice. If they dont want monk trading focus for spells, it would be better to just give a different sorcerer like benefit to focus, rather than just make the feature a trap. Whatever it is, or could be, it needs to be worth trading the power of focus points to gain its effects. Its really weird that people seem to think that low levels spells at level 17 are going make a class OP.
Also Ebberon, and potent dragon mark are setting specific, Its not a mainstream supplement. I wouldnt assume its available for balancing a class, and in those cases the balance of everything is different. If everyone has easy access to CME, of course CME being on a class list doesnt matter, but thats nit the default assumption. So, likely people talking about the balance arent assuming ebberon's dragon marks is always an option
Needs a ribbon feature at level 3 for flavor purposes. Nothing too powerful, but something that's always an option and speaks to the subclass identity. Maybe spend 1 FP to cast Detect Magic? Something like that.
Eh; all spells can be ritual cast by anyone with them prepared now, so it'd be a rare circumstance where spending a focus is better than just taking the 10 minutes to cast it, and it's any easy pick at early levels for the general utility and ritual casting.
Maybe give them Arcana prof and let them use WIS mod for it. Lets them underscore that they've really learned magic and sidesteps the obvious mechanical hang up of having a decent bonus for their level when they're already MAD.
The monk's focus is more valuable than low level spell slots, and you cant create higher level spell slots with monks focus, than the monk's level allows. On the other side, maybe you could turn sorcery points into spells, and spells into ki, but thats probably a trash rate.
for comparison, a monk's focus point is basically more powerful than a level 2 spell at level 10, and more powerful than a level 1 spell before that. So its a fairly bad trade, purely in power budget. Its useful for utility/versatility, and some special effects monks dont have easy access to, but most other classes already have such things built in in 2024.
Some people imagine a world where monk is trading all their ki for spells, as if thats benefiting them. taking away half of your damage, patient defense/step of the wind/stunning strike in order to cast 3 level 1 spells, isnt a big win at level 6. There is not 3 level one spells that will give you that much value per short rest. And going the other direction, actually might be useful at times early on, but thats not out of budget for a subclass that would basically be offering you like 2 extra focus points per day.
The big great usecase, is in a no combat day, monk can cast a lot of low level spells, so can a bunch of other classes.
Edit:
adding response to this:
"
Ignoring what you give up at level 20. Is having two pools of points that you can use to create spell slots problematic? Is it problematic to have a secondary pool that you can use to convert to slots and then into sorcery points for metamagics?
My fixes.
3rd LEVEL: Spellcasting same
3rd LEVEL: Mystic Focus, but it can only be used once per long rest.
6th LEVEL: Mystic Fighting Style, same with this sentence added, “Additionally there is no long a restriction on the number of times you may use your Mystic Focus.”
11th LEVEL: Centered Focus, same with this sentence added, “If you still fail a save to maintain concentration you may use your reaction to spend up to 5 focus points and add the amount you spent to your roll turning a failure into a success.”
17th LEVEL: Mystic Strike. Once on your turn when you hit with an unarmed strike or monk weapon you can expend a spell slot and deal an additional 1d8+1d8 per spell slot level force damage.
No one it's saying it, but the reason they went Sorcerer spell list is bc they didn't want Monks having easy access to Conjure Minor Elementals
Or just to have a little variety since we’ve already got two subclasses running off Wizard
Yeah I doubt they care that much about the variety here, that's been a lot of initial assumptions, but I'm betting its CME access
They could have added variety by giving access to the cleric spell list instead. Make the monk a divine caster.
It’s a 4th level spell, I highly doubt they have any concerns about a 1/3 caster breaking the game with it. By the time they get it a Wizard can already do a pretty good impression of what you’re describing with Scorching Ray, and even upcast one or both.
Didn't say it would break the game, I just don't think they even wanted it to be an option for people to build around, because people definitely would... Plenty of bad builds out there trying to force hunter's mark as it is,
They don’t want one subclass to be able to do something a whole class will already be able to do better and sooner? That’s a reach.
monk is better at being a martial doing it. A monk has a tone of durability, and needs less resources to do it. Also scorching ray/EB doesnt realy interact with magic items.
they also interact better with attacks with sources of advantage, etc (prone grapplle stun etc).
a monk can make 6 attacks every turn (with nick mastery) and might likely have some magical wraps, and/or a magic weapons
6.5+5+9+2 with advantage wouldnt be uncommon. (stun+grapple chance is a common source) with advantage and crits, one attack is 22.58 damage, thats 135 dpr for the cost of one level 4 spell, and 1-2 ki. the you coudld add about 10 damage to that from the cantrip attack.
specifically, by level 20, that would likely go up to 164(174 cantrip) damage via increasee dex/wis and crit boosting epic boon.
they would have deflect attacks of about 30 damage, 24 AC, resistance to all damage( except force) profociency in all saves, with ability to reroll.
all this with a straight classed monk. You could target the wizard and likely break concentration or just kill them outright, And they would be limited via upcasted scorching rays.
So it would probabky be the best straight class version of this
You do realize they only get a single 4th level spell slot at level 19, right? And they need to wait a turn before they can more than their FoB in on it. Would this look really cool if they pulled it off? Sure. Is this anything close to the biggest hit someone can make by late 4th tier? Nope.
I'll grant they might have picked Sorcerer in part just for a smaller list of spells vs Wizard, given Monks get a lot more core class toys, but I really, really don't think this spell carried an extra weight in the decision.
A Mark of Storm (Eberron Forge of the Artificer) has Conjure Minor Elementals on all of their spellcasting class lists. Add Potent Dragonmark and any character, spellcaster or not, can cast it by 7th level once per Short Rest. Any character with a two feat investment (one of which can take the place of an origin feat) can do what you propose better and sooner than a Mystic Monk with the spell on their spell list.
Technically, it's 4 slots at 19 because they have 20 focus points and can recover 3 4th level slots. It's a Bonus Action for each, but they can do it during combat and at the end of combat if they need to. Practically, it's potentially much more than that because Monks recover all of their Focus Points with a Short Rest. They will be limited to upcasting lower-level spell or 2 (level 19) or 3 (level 20) 4th level spells
knownprepared.It's just the same cost as the Sorcery Point cost but they are easier to replenish. Focus Points fully replenish with a Short Rest or Long Rest and if you roll initiative with less than 4 Focus Points, you are set to 4 (enough for a 2nd level slot). Sorcery Points only allow you to restore half your class level during a Short Rest and only once per Long Rest. They probably should have priced the Focus Point cost higher (perhaps starting at 2 but increasing faster than the Sorcery Point cost, maybe 2-3-5-7 or 2-4-7-11).
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I’m pretty sure they chose sorcerer because they decided to give it a focus point version of font of magic.
Isn't every spell list more limited than the wizard one? Isn't that what makes wizards so powerful and versatile as they gain levels?
I don't hate these, to be sure. But I might also add the ability to have their unarmed strikes count as magical attacks, since they took that away in 2024 in lieu of letting them deal Force damage. This subclass seems like the perfect place to add that back in.
Magical attacks aren’t a thing anymore. That is, 24 monsters no longer have resistance to nonmagical b/p/s damage, they just resist all of it, magic or not. Force is far better.
Not to mention that if you have something that is resistant to your Bludgeoning. Piercing, and Slashing damage, changing to Force damage is as effective at bypassing resistance in almost all cases. Even if you are facing a 2014 monster that the DM didn't update, switching to Force damage accomplishes the same goal that magical bludgeoning did in 2014.
If you are facing an Orthon from Monsters of the Multiverse and don't have silvered or magic weapons, dealing Force damage deals normal damage. Very few things are resistant to Force damage and those that are won't be resistant to Bludgeoning damage, magic or not.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
yes, the monk can get level 4 slots for focus
however monks focus is incredibly effective. Many people talking about the exchange rate are ignoring that a monk with zero focus is mostly worthless, and the value of one focus point for a monk at level 10+ is large. 1 focus point is 2d12+10, a stunning strike, dodge+disengage+temp HP, disengage+dash+carry friend. Even at higher levels, when monk has more focus, they cant afford to spend all their focus.
if the rate was worse, it would just be completely pointless to convert, and a trap, focus points are already being traded at a power discount as is. Going from sometimes worth it, to almost never worth it, isnt really a good choice. If they dont want monk trading focus for spells, it would be better to just give a different sorcerer like benefit to focus, rather than just make the feature a trap. Whatever it is, or could be, it needs to be worth trading the power of focus points to gain its effects. Its really weird that people seem to think that low levels spells at level 17 are going make a class OP.
Also Ebberon, and potent dragon mark are setting specific, Its not a mainstream supplement. I wouldnt assume its available for balancing a class, and in those cases the balance of everything is different. If everyone has easy access to CME, of course CME being on a class list doesnt matter, but thats nit the default assumption. So, likely people talking about the balance arent assuming ebberon's dragon marks is always an option